5 ms·

I cannot believe after all these years China is still banning the whole site instead of using some keyword or content-based method. Not that those methods are r

by yzh 11y ago

I cannot believe after all these years China is still banning the whole site instead of using some keyword or content-based method. Not that those methods are right, but at least it would save a lot of programmers and researchers time. How can people make progress on anything related to scientific research without the help of Wikipedia? seven years ago I was a college student in China and I sure remembered how I have to set up VPN to check on wikipedia pages for my thesis. And needless to say, the school doesn't have the up-to-date paper collection from either IEEE or ACM. I have to directly visit the author's sites. I really wish the government could realize how harmful this is to innovation...

JohnTHaller 11y ago
The answer is HTTPS. Unless China can compromise the whole country's OSes by forcing them to install a security certificate that lets them impersonate Wikipedia, Google, etc, they can't block individual pages on sites that only serve over https * They can only block whole sites. Wikipedia forces https sitewide for just this reason. Selective censorship isn't permitted. Fun fact #1: That's believed to be why the Chinese government orchestrated the attacks against github in April 2015 using the great firewall to distribute infected javascripts via Baidu. They were trying to force github to take two projects offline that were being used to get around the great firewall and gain access to the unedited NY times online. The Chinese government can't selectively block those projects because github enforces https sitewide. * Fun fact # 2: An intermediary of China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC) issued several fake certificates for Google-owned domains in March of 2015. Google untrusted the certificates in Chrome and Android and Mozilla did the same in Firefox.
- Ezhik 11y ago
  Well, you could make everyone install a compromised SSL certificate... https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/current/msg01979.html https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/current/msg019...
  - Spivak 11y ago
    So you force your citizens to install a compromised SSL cert and can now impersonate any website. Now what? If you want to monitor someone don't you have to proxy all their traffic? Is that even feasible on a country wide scale? Because you can't do it intermittently since a user can just check which cert the key is signed with to tell you whether you're currently being monitored.
    - y4mi 11y ago
      > don't you have to proxy all their traffic? and that is one part of what the gfw does. google 'how does the gfw work' if you want a broad overview. there was a really in-depth explanation on HN not that long ago. sadly, i'm unable to find it at the moment.
    - xorcist 11y ago
      I would think it's not only feasible, but also more simple than what the Great Firewall already does. You could probably do it on on 0.1% of the NSA's yearly budget. (Which, after some Googling, turns out to be 10M USD. That's even more than I expected.)
      - dcposch 11y ago
        10B, not 10M!
  - JohnTHaller 11y ago
    That's what I was referring to. It's easier in some countries than others.
- bjshepard 11y ago
  Wikipedia is available in China without VPN. I just got onto it.
  - Paul_S 11y ago
    Oh, yeah? Click on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1...
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    If you live in expat areas you quite likely get your internet served through HK or Macao which isn't filtered. The roaming packages of foreign mobile users also don't get filtered. If you are a Chinese citizen you most likely will be filtered, I've been to China multiple times companies will usually have a dedicated work station with HK internet the rest will be filtered hotels usually also get internet through HK not sure if this is only for foreign guests or not, on normal internet connecions Wikipedia and the likes were definitely blocked at least as recently as February 2015(last time I visited main land China£
- mfjordvald 11y ago
  They basically already have this. Qihoo 360 web browser and anti virus will open you up wide to spying by the Chinese government and a lot of Chinese people prefer using these because they're better tailored for Chinese culture. If HTTPS truly become adopted by mainstream Chinese people then they'd be highly "encouraging" that browser.
xiaoma 11y ago
Baidu's Baike is a truly gigantic wiki. Often whole articles from the Chinese version of Wikipedia show up there, but Baike is actually much larger. I agree that blocking the international internet is harmful to innovation and the economy, but the question of how harmful is largely based on how large the market is. In China's case, Baidu isn't as extensive as Google, Youku doesn't have the Khan Academy or a lot of other things YouTube does, but they're still huge and it's not that bad. China's internet isn't as rich as that of the entire world, but it's still large and vibrant. For the Russian internet it's a bit worse. If a country the size of Denmark decided to only their own versions of fb, youtube, wikipedia, etc, it would be a catastrophic loss.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Youku rips a lot of content directly from YouTube; 90% of the past popular stuff is there, and of course, piracy. As a laowai, I'm beginning to feel more isolated. If it wasn't for the pollution, it would be the biggest problem in living here.
  - song 11y ago
    Yeah, this and the pollution is what made me leave China two years ago. Looking back, I don't regret it.
  - rahimnathwani 11y ago
    Why are you beginning to feel isolated? Because of internet connection censorship? Or some combination of factors?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - ttflee 11y ago
    yeah, to believe or not, 'user generated content'

by yzh 11y ago

JohnTHaller 11y ago

The answer is HTTPS. Unless China can compromise the whole country's OSes by forcing them to install a security certificate that lets them impersonate Wikipedia, Google, etc, they can't block individual pages on sites that only serve over https * They can only block whole sites. Wikipedia forces https sitewide for just this reason. Selective censorship isn't permitted. Fun fact #1: That's believed to be why the Chinese government orchestrated the attacks against github in April 2015 using the great firewall to distribute infected javascripts via Baidu. They were trying to force github to take two projects offline that were being used to get around the great firewall and gain access to the unedited NY times online. The Chinese government can't selectively block those projects because github enforces https sitewide. * Fun fact # 2: An intermediary of China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC) issued several fake certificates for Google-owned domains in March of 2015. Google untrusted the certificates in Chrome and Android and Mozilla did the same in Firefox.

Ezhik 11y ago
Well, you could make everyone install a compromised SSL certificate... https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/current/msg01979.html https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/current/msg019...
- Spivak 11y ago
  So you force your citizens to install a compromised SSL cert and can now impersonate any website. Now what? If you want to monitor someone don't you have to proxy all their traffic? Is that even feasible on a country wide scale? Because you can't do it intermittently since a user can just check which cert the key is signed with to tell you whether you're currently being monitored.
  - y4mi 11y ago
    > don't you have to proxy all their traffic? and that is one part of what the gfw does. google 'how does the gfw work' if you want a broad overview. there was a really in-depth explanation on HN not that long ago. sadly, i'm unable to find it at the moment.
  - xorcist 11y ago
    I would think it's not only feasible, but also more simple than what the Great Firewall already does. You could probably do it on on 0.1% of the NSA's yearly budget. (Which, after some Googling, turns out to be 10M USD. That's even more than I expected.)
    - dcposch 11y ago
      10B, not 10M!
- JohnTHaller 11y ago
  That's what I was referring to. It's easier in some countries than others.
bjshepard 11y ago
Wikipedia is available in China without VPN. I just got onto it.
- Paul_S 11y ago
  Oh, yeah? Click on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1...
- dogma1138 11y ago
  If you live in expat areas you quite likely get your internet served through HK or Macao which isn't filtered. The roaming packages of foreign mobile users also don't get filtered. If you are a Chinese citizen you most likely will be filtered, I've been to China multiple times companies will usually have a dedicated work station with HK internet the rest will be filtered hotels usually also get internet through HK not sure if this is only for foreign guests or not, on normal internet connecions Wikipedia and the likes were definitely blocked at least as recently as February 2015(last time I visited main land China£
mfjordvald 11y ago
They basically already have this. Qihoo 360 web browser and anti virus will open you up wide to spying by the Chinese government and a lot of Chinese people prefer using these because they're better tailored for Chinese culture. If HTTPS truly become adopted by mainstream Chinese people then they'd be highly "encouraging" that browser.

xiaoma 11y ago

Baidu's Baike is a truly gigantic wiki. Often whole articles from the Chinese version of Wikipedia show up there, but Baike is actually much larger. I agree that blocking the international internet is harmful to innovation and the economy, but the question of how harmful is largely based on how large the market is. In China's case, Baidu isn't as extensive as Google, Youku doesn't have the Khan Academy or a lot of other things YouTube does, but they're still huge and it's not that bad. China's internet isn't as rich as that of the entire world, but it's still large and vibrant. For the Russian internet it's a bit worse. If a country the size of Denmark decided to only their own versions of fb, youtube, wikipedia, etc, it would be a catastrophic loss.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Youku rips a lot of content directly from YouTube; 90% of the past popular stuff is there, and of course, piracy. As a laowai, I'm beginning to feel more isolated. If it wasn't for the pollution, it would be the biggest problem in living here.
- song 11y ago
  Yeah, this and the pollution is what made me leave China two years ago. Looking back, I don't regret it.
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  Why are you beginning to feel isolated? Because of internet connection censorship? Or some combination of factors?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- ttflee 11y ago
  yeah, to believe or not, 'user generated content'