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Thank you for responding. > If you look at it from an outside perspective, both sides are right. That's kinda how it feels to me. In most of the conflicts I'v

by eeZi 11y ago

Thank you for responding. > If you look at it from an outside perspective, both sides are right. That's kinda how it feels to me. In most of the conflicts I've read about, one side is right (look at this - if what she writes is true - and there's no reason for me to believe otherwise, how would you reasonably argue against that?, but then I read about "safe spaces" at universities and can only think how dumb of an idea this is), but instead of a civilized discussion which might actually change people's opinions, a shirtstorm ensues. Please disagree with me if you think that I'm wrong on this - I'm really just an outsider who occasionally reads about this on Twitter and shakes his head.

lillian-lemmer 11y ago
Please trust me when I say safe spaces are crucial, especially to trans survival. I wish you knew how... devastatingly lonely it can be as an outcast in society. How everyone treats you. Solidarity is really important. Can you also imagine who you are constantly being criticized? Your problems constantly being made out to be false? That you have the burden of proof with everyone because nobody knows your struggle? I feel like the most important takehome is that we need recourse for ensuring the safety of the less represented of people, e.g., trans.
- Pharaoh2 11y ago
  I absolutely agree that every society should be able to provide a welcoming and safe environment for every person. But do you think that a safe space is the best way to do it? I may be wrong, but it looks like a exclusionary step that most societies have fought hard to remove. The way I understand it, safe space is not only a place where people can a particular group of people are "protected" but also a place where idea can grow without any challenge or even merit. Do you think that is a good idea? I may be totally wrong about what a safe space is, but this is the impression I have got till now.
- eeZi 11y ago
  Hmm. I see your point. I've first heard about safe spaces by reading about the "Halloween incident" at Yale which left me with the impression that they're a bad idea since it appeared to me that they not only discourage harassment and violence (and seriously, how can one disagree with this?), but also critical discourse, which I believe is very important to our society. But I also see how "safe spaces" would be useful and how critical discourse could be used for bullying. I've not read enough about this to make up my mind on this. Was the Yale thing an unexpected outcome?
- lillian-lemmer 11y ago
  This may be unpopular opinion, but the fact is that there is just a perspective that you cannot understand through anecdotes or research. The experience of being trans, queer, female, etc., today is not summed up by text. It is the adrenaline and vomit from death threats, it's falling behind at work because of harassment, I could go on and on. Safe places are a way to ensure that everyone at least can truly empathize with each others' experiences, and as such, a place where they don't have to worry about that. It's a counter, a reaction to all spaces practically being for (white) men. Who's voices are heard? Who's narratives are enforced? Safe places are the only places we have. I could go on, but...
  - rrss1122 11y ago
    Unquestionably, threats should absolutely be forbidden, and they are. Threatening another person is already a federal crime and anyone receiving threats online should report it to law enforcement so the person making those threats can be dealt with and so that person can't continue to terrorize other people online. We should feel secure for our lives. Indeed it's one of the inalienable rights defined in the Declaration of Independence: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What many people now know as safe places, however, overreach their stated goal of providing security for minorities. They sacrifice liberty for life. You can put someone in jail for threatening your life, but you can't put someone in jail (or fire them or ruin their livelihood otherwise) for saying something you don't agree with. If you force someoen to empathize, they aren't truly empathizing, they are remaining quiet for fear of being called a bigot and getting their reputation ruined. They shouldn't have the right to make you fall behind at work because of harassment. Then again, no one should have the right to do that on anyone, no exceptions based on arbitrary classes/categories.
    - freebsdgirl 11y ago
      > anyone receiving threats online should report it to law enforcement The fact that you suggest this is proof that you've never had to do so. This is literally part of what I do for a living. I work with people going to law enforcement, sometimes as an advocate. Your local police have no idea what their laws are regarding online stalking/harassment, nor do they have interest in prosecuting it without a significant amount of external prodding, usually from reporters. You're welcome to look up anything I've written on the subject about this for reference.
Pharaoh2 11y ago
Well, you are right. Most arguments are I support A, and the opposition is I oppose A. Somehow GG is different, it's I support A, and the other side is fuck your A, I support B ,when they don't actually have any problem with A. The first side then responds with, no fuck your B, A all the way. It's mind boggling, it can just as easily be we support A & B. And that bring us to this post, it has nothing to do with GG. Its simple harassment and the core community handled it poorly. It looks like a good case of lack of precedent on how to handle it. Earlier harassment used to of the "your mother is fat type" or "shut up you fukin brit" because people didn't have much to go on. Now as diversity increases people have more difference that can be attacked and those differences are very personal and hence affects a person on a deeper level. It's a classical case of school bullying, just that no one here is in school anymore, some people just don't grow up. Once self regulating communities (those without HR departments) figure out how to handle these cases the right way, which I believe they will, these events should have a quick end.
makomk 11y ago
Honestly, the complaints about "safe spaces" at universities are largely bullshit. From what I've seen, most of the people who were supposedly "silencing" those they disagree with were actually trying to get as many people to read their opponents' views in full, because they think it can only help them. On the other hand, the articles complaining about "safe spaces" and "silencing" carefully avoid repeating what the person supposedly being silenced actually said, because they know it'll hurt their argument if - for example - they admit that a particular feminist wasn't welcome because she'd successfully campaigned for trans women to be denied access to rape counselling and domestic violence services. I'm more worried about articles like this one. To give some context, the author of this article has a lovely habit of telling anyone she disagrees with to go kill themselves over on Twitter. She also thinks that complaining about this is harassment and has got Twitter support to force people to delete Tweets that do so in the past. For obvious reasons, some people thought this made her unsuitable to speak about online harassment. This article is her attempt to lump everyone who did so in with a literal rape supporter.

by eeZi 11y ago

lillian-lemmer 11y ago

Please trust me when I say safe spaces are crucial, especially to trans survival. I wish you knew how... devastatingly lonely it can be as an outcast in society. How everyone treats you. Solidarity is really important. Can you also imagine who you are constantly being criticized? Your problems constantly being made out to be false? That you have the burden of proof with everyone because nobody knows your struggle? I feel like the most important takehome is that we need recourse for ensuring the safety of the less represented of people, e.g., trans.

Pharaoh2 11y ago
I absolutely agree that every society should be able to provide a welcoming and safe environment for every person. But do you think that a safe space is the best way to do it? I may be wrong, but it looks like a exclusionary step that most societies have fought hard to remove. The way I understand it, safe space is not only a place where people can a particular group of people are "protected" but also a place where idea can grow without any challenge or even merit. Do you think that is a good idea? I may be totally wrong about what a safe space is, but this is the impression I have got till now.
eeZi 11y ago
Hmm. I see your point. I've first heard about safe spaces by reading about the "Halloween incident" at Yale which left me with the impression that they're a bad idea since it appeared to me that they not only discourage harassment and violence (and seriously, how can one disagree with this?), but also critical discourse, which I believe is very important to our society. But I also see how "safe spaces" would be useful and how critical discourse could be used for bullying. I've not read enough about this to make up my mind on this. Was the Yale thing an unexpected outcome?
lillian-lemmer 11y ago
This may be unpopular opinion, but the fact is that there is just a perspective that you cannot understand through anecdotes or research. The experience of being trans, queer, female, etc., today is not summed up by text. It is the adrenaline and vomit from death threats, it's falling behind at work because of harassment, I could go on and on. Safe places are a way to ensure that everyone at least can truly empathize with each others' experiences, and as such, a place where they don't have to worry about that. It's a counter, a reaction to all spaces practically being for (white) men. Who's voices are heard? Who's narratives are enforced? Safe places are the only places we have. I could go on, but...
- rrss1122 11y ago
  Unquestionably, threats should absolutely be forbidden, and they are. Threatening another person is already a federal crime and anyone receiving threats online should report it to law enforcement so the person making those threats can be dealt with and so that person can't continue to terrorize other people online. We should feel secure for our lives. Indeed it's one of the inalienable rights defined in the Declaration of Independence: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What many people now know as safe places, however, overreach their stated goal of providing security for minorities. They sacrifice liberty for life. You can put someone in jail for threatening your life, but you can't put someone in jail (or fire them or ruin their livelihood otherwise) for saying something you don't agree with. If you force someoen to empathize, they aren't truly empathizing, they are remaining quiet for fear of being called a bigot and getting their reputation ruined. They shouldn't have the right to make you fall behind at work because of harassment. Then again, no one should have the right to do that on anyone, no exceptions based on arbitrary classes/categories.
  - freebsdgirl 11y ago
    > anyone receiving threats online should report it to law enforcement The fact that you suggest this is proof that you've never had to do so. This is literally part of what I do for a living. I work with people going to law enforcement, sometimes as an advocate. Your local police have no idea what their laws are regarding online stalking/harassment, nor do they have interest in prosecuting it without a significant amount of external prodding, usually from reporters. You're welcome to look up anything I've written on the subject about this for reference.

Pharaoh2 11y ago

Well, you are right. Most arguments are I support A, and the opposition is I oppose A. Somehow GG is different, it's I support A, and the other side is fuck your A, I support B ,when they don't actually have any problem with A. The first side then responds with, no fuck your B, A all the way. It's mind boggling, it can just as easily be we support A & B. And that bring us to this post, it has nothing to do with GG. Its simple harassment and the core community handled it poorly. It looks like a good case of lack of precedent on how to handle it. Earlier harassment used to of the "your mother is fat type" or "shut up you fukin brit" because people didn't have much to go on. Now as diversity increases people have more difference that can be attacked and those differences are very personal and hence affects a person on a deeper level. It's a classical case of school bullying, just that no one here is in school anymore, some people just don't grow up. Once self regulating communities (those without HR departments) figure out how to handle these cases the right way, which I believe they will, these events should have a quick end.

makomk 11y ago

Honestly, the complaints about "safe spaces" at universities are largely bullshit. From what I've seen, most of the people who were supposedly "silencing" those they disagree with were actually trying to get as many people to read their opponents' views in full, because they think it can only help them. On the other hand, the articles complaining about "safe spaces" and "silencing" carefully avoid repeating what the person supposedly being silenced actually said, because they know it'll hurt their argument if - for example - they admit that a particular feminist wasn't welcome because she'd successfully campaigned for trans women to be denied access to rape counselling and domestic violence services. I'm more worried about articles like this one. To give some context, the author of this article has a lovely habit of telling anyone she disagrees with to go kill themselves over on Twitter. She also thinks that complaining about this is harassment and has got Twitter support to force people to delete Tweets that do so in the past. For obvious reasons, some people thought this made her unsuitable to speak about online harassment. This article is her attempt to lump everyone who did so in with a literal rape supporter.