3 ms·

Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that), then you're in a w

by city41 11y ago

Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that), then you're in a world dominated by Linux and OSX. I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. Sure, platform specific issues do happen for other OSes, but they are rare. They are extremely common for Windows. For sure, I have no obligation to fix Windows specific issues in my projects. All of my projects are done in my spare time and given away for free. But Windows specific issues are still annoying and disappointing. Another aspect of this that is annoying is that major, mission critical open source projects have to dedicate so many resources to Windows. For example this bug in ClojureScript: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969c6a914324f1b9c81f8246d01f0a7 https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969... Imagine if the Clojure team didn't have to worry about file separator differences, and the multitude of other Windows annoyances. How much extra energy, time and resources would they gain? I suspect a lot. EDIT: And I would also say I have every right to complain about Microsoft. Ignoring standards and doing their own thing for their own financial gain at everyone else's expense is definitely worthy of complaint. Also see Internet Explorer.

moron4hire 11y ago
>> Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that) I think you need to get out more. Or at least go to meetups that don't only meet at coffee shops. You're cutting out a huge chunk there, and there are still huge chunks that use Windows to do Java, C++, etc. I mean, game development is a multi billion dollar industry that is almost exclusively Windows-but-not-.NET, outside of consoles, and even on consoles it's still Windows in a large number of cases. >> I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? This is different from Google with Android how? This is different from Canonical with Unity how? This is different than RedHat and Debian and pretty much every other major Linux distro with systemd how? And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one.
- city41 11y ago
  >> This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? I'll never run "npm install" or "gem install" or what have you on iOS, Android, etc. Proprietary OSes come in all shapes and sizes, all bringing their own pros and cons to the mix. I just happen to be focusing on a very large con of Windows at the moment. As for OSX, Redhat, Debian, etc. Sure, they're all different, of course. But generally speaking, at least when it comes to Node and npm (and as far as I know, Ruby, Clojure, Python, etc, please correct me if I'm wrong), these OSes tend to get along pretty OK. Windows, does not. >> And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one. And yet how many times has that problem been hit over the decades? I mean heck, look at the commit message, "Another Windows path issue". And yeah, it's not even a hard one, it just gets worse from there. I came to that issue from here (which is my project): https://github.com/city41/reagent-breakout/issues/11 https://github.com/city41/reagent-breakout/issues/11 So for "not even a hard one", still took me 20 minutes of digging to find out what was going on. X minutes across all developers across how long Windows has been around really adds up. For just one of Windows's differences.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    I don't think you realize just how different even various Linux distros running even the same kernel can be, and I think you're giving waaay too much credit to OSX/Linux for being "alike". MAKE build scripts have notoriously been a mess for decades because of the differences between distros. Any reasonable language has the ability to query all of the platform-specific stuff directly from the standard library. You can't even count on two Windows users having their home directories in the same place, or two Arch users having all of their config files in the same place. It's a necessity to be able to abstract all of these away even for a single operating system, which means you get it for free when moving to other operating systems.
    - city41 11y ago
      I do get that. I totally understand all OSes are very different. How often those differences surface really depends on a lot of things, mostly at what level of the OS you are working in. Node modules and apps tend to stay pretty high level. But again, I still stand by my original statement that Windows specific issues crop up more than any other OS. Just take a look at the README for node-gyp: https://github.com/nodejs/node-gyp https://github.com/nodejs/node-gyp -- yup in OSX you have to get Xcode and a few other OSX specific steps to arrive at gcc and make, but compare that to the Windows section ...
jameshart 11y ago
Seems to me that reasonable people could disagree over whether POSIX should be considered the be-all and end-all of OS standardization.
- tonyarkles 11y ago
  I wouldn't call it the be-all and end-all, but rather the bare minimum. "If you implement this API spec, there's a good chance a lot of software can successfully build"

by city41 11y ago

moron4hire 11y ago

>> Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that) I think you need to get out more. Or at least go to meetups that don't only meet at coffee shops. You're cutting out a huge chunk there, and there are still huge chunks that use Windows to do Java, C++, etc. I mean, game development is a multi billion dollar industry that is almost exclusively Windows-but-not-.NET, outside of consoles, and even on consoles it's still Windows in a large number of cases. >> I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? This is different from Google with Android how? This is different from Canonical with Unity how? This is different than RedHat and Debian and pretty much every other major Linux distro with systemd how? And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one.

city41 11y ago
>> This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? I'll never run "npm install" or "gem install" or what have you on iOS, Android, etc. Proprietary OSes come in all shapes and sizes, all bringing their own pros and cons to the mix. I just happen to be focusing on a very large con of Windows at the moment. As for OSX, Redhat, Debian, etc. Sure, they're all different, of course. But generally speaking, at least when it comes to Node and npm (and as far as I know, Ruby, Clojure, Python, etc, please correct me if I'm wrong), these OSes tend to get along pretty OK. Windows, does not. >> And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one. And yet how many times has that problem been hit over the decades? I mean heck, look at the commit message, "Another Windows path issue". And yeah, it's not even a hard one, it just gets worse from there. I came to that issue from here (which is my project): https://github.com/city41/reagent-breakout/issues/11 https://github.com/city41/reagent-breakout/issues/11 So for "not even a hard one", still took me 20 minutes of digging to find out what was going on. X minutes across all developers across how long Windows has been around really adds up. For just one of Windows's differences.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  I don't think you realize just how different even various Linux distros running even the same kernel can be, and I think you're giving waaay too much credit to OSX/Linux for being "alike". MAKE build scripts have notoriously been a mess for decades because of the differences between distros. Any reasonable language has the ability to query all of the platform-specific stuff directly from the standard library. You can't even count on two Windows users having their home directories in the same place, or two Arch users having all of their config files in the same place. It's a necessity to be able to abstract all of these away even for a single operating system, which means you get it for free when moving to other operating systems.
  - city41 11y ago
    I do get that. I totally understand all OSes are very different. How often those differences surface really depends on a lot of things, mostly at what level of the OS you are working in. Node modules and apps tend to stay pretty high level. But again, I still stand by my original statement that Windows specific issues crop up more than any other OS. Just take a look at the README for node-gyp: https://github.com/nodejs/node-gyp https://github.com/nodejs/node-gyp -- yup in OSX you have to get Xcode and a few other OSX specific steps to arrive at gcc and make, but compare that to the Windows section ...

jameshart 11y ago

Seems to me that reasonable people could disagree over whether POSIX should be considered the be-all and end-all of OS standardization.

tonyarkles 11y ago
I wouldn't call it the be-all and end-all, but rather the bare minimum. "If you implement this API spec, there's a good chance a lot of software can successfully build"