6 ms·

Why do dev communities have to continually pay the Windows tax? If Microsoft keeps insisting on being an outlier in the world of OSes, shouldn't they be the one

by city41 11y ago

Why do dev communities have to continually pay the Windows tax? If Microsoft keeps insisting on being an outlier in the world of OSes, shouldn't they be the ones burdened? I gotta say, as someone who never ever uses Windows but maintains a couple of open source packages, I'm really sick of the Windows only problems that crop up.

tvanantwerp 11y ago
As someone who has no choice but to use Windows at work, I'm really sick of all the problems that crop up because so many tools use were written by people who won't use Windows and haven't tested anything on it.
- city41 11y ago
  I feel your pain, but am not convinced open source maintainers should have to be the ones to resolve the issue. Especially since so many projects are done using spare time and with no compensation.
- saosebastiao 11y ago
  If I had no choice but to use Windows at work, and using Windows meant I couldn't use a large amount of development tools that I rely on, then the last ones I would blame would be the open source developers that won't use or develop for Windows. Your employer is the problem here.
- krisdol 11y ago
  Why do you expect developers to pay for software, OSes, and licenses they don't use in order to develop open source software for free? Help them out by contributing, or blame Microsoft who has the resources to make their own OS more compatible Doesnt Microsoft have their own V8 or node.js fork now?
- ploxiln 11y ago
  Kinda funny isn't it, after a decade where one might be required to use a proprietary VPN or email client that only runs on windows. And those things didn't use standard, published, or even consistent protocols, nor were they open-source. In fact they were hostile to compatible implementations. They had to be reverse-engineered. So now you get just a little, watered-down taste of using the non-preferred platform for something.
- tsuraan 11y ago
  That's a funny point of view. Windows is made by a multi-billion dollar company, rented by countless wealthy software development shops, but it's volunteer open-source programmers who are supposed to take on the burden of supporting it? Seriously, I can't even comprehend that thought process. I write software for fun, I release it on github, and some people find it useful. If there are other people who don't, they can improve it for their own purposes, or they can find or write something better. I don't think anybody has a right to expect me to support Microsoft's product. That's insane.
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    I don't think anybody has a right to expect me to support Microsoft's product. That's insane. True enough, though it's also fair to consider a language/platform/ecosystem inferior for some work if it relies on that kind of individual and often less portable contribution for its effectiveness. A lot of FOSS advocates will promote community support and a broad contributor base as advantages of that style of development, but there is another side to that coin, which is that sometimes you get just what you (didn't) pay for and you're on your own in terms of support or working around any problems.
- ag_dubs 11y ago
  hi! i totally know this is a common feel for many npmjs users. this is why i've been running an empathy campaign for Windows, Windows Wednesday, where i do all my work (with/for npm) on windows. it's been good for finding bugs, either technical or UX. i'm working on improving the docs to make them friendlier to all platforms (not just OSX, which is the most common platform at npmjs). npmjs cares about the enterprise + windows.
  - city41 11y ago
    I think this is the wrong approach. We shouldn't pick up MS's slack, MS should. This just enforces the current situation and keeps enabling MS to ignore the problem.
    - gelasio 11y ago
      So, are you of the opinion that OSS projects should never be built for any commercial, proprietary OS or just Windows (i.e. because it's not Unix)? For instance - OS X window managers suck. Do you think that a project like Spectacle should have never been built because they're just picking up Apple's slack?
      - city41 11y ago
        I don't see how a project like Spectacle, which is OSX specific, relates. If someone wants to make an OS specific project, more power to them. The issue arises on platforms that span OSes, and they just never quite span onto Windows correctly. Microsoft is very happy that Node, Java, Clojure, etc work on Windows. It helps them a lot. But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else. That's my gripe, right there. And to be fair, this is not a black and white situation. It's complex and Microsoft's role in all of this is complex too. And sometimes this issue does crop up on other OSes, for example Docker on OSX is sometimes a little painful.
        gelasio 11y ago
        "But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else." OK, but that's also where you're wrong, right there. In general, but also particularly for this exact issue - Microsoft considered attempting to fix the file path limit for the first release of Windows 10. Maybe you don't understand, but it's going to take a herculean effort to fix this. They want to do it and if you need proof of that I can find posts of them talking about what I just said.
- Maarten88 11y ago
  Yes, npm is very problematic/buggy on Windows. I wasted many hours because of https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/9696 https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/9696 (meaning any build on visual studio online breaks ~50% of the time simply running 'npm install'). Microsoft should finally fix the MAX_PATH issue in Windows, but npm should just fix their software: it's too important to be that buggy.
frik 11y ago
Microsoft initially aimed POSIX compatibility with Windows NT 3.1. There were POSIX subsystems for WinNT 3-5.1. Though, things changed and got worse.
um_ya 11y ago
Better yet, why don't they just make a tool that fixes the windows problem, as a standalone patch. No need to change NPM, just need to fix the problem on Windows... The whole flat folder thing looks really bad.
gelasio 11y ago
It sounds like you're getting annoyed that the devs of certain projects like Node.js have chosen to support an OS that you don't use without asking you about it first... If you're in control of the project - you have every right to ignore Windows users. If you're not in control, then you really have zero right to complain. Zero. Devs certainly aren't forced to "pay the Windows tax" in any way. Plenty of OSS projects completely ignore Windows. I'm sure you're aware though that Windows has the majority market share of desktop operating systems. If your software is interesting to the vast, vast population of Windows users, you might get some requests to support Windows. And since it's not an outlier in the market, other desktop OSes should obviously strive to be more like Windows ;)
- city41 11y ago
  Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that), then you're in a world dominated by Linux and OSX. I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. Sure, platform specific issues do happen for other OSes, but they are rare. They are extremely common for Windows. For sure, I have no obligation to fix Windows specific issues in my projects. All of my projects are done in my spare time and given away for free. But Windows specific issues are still annoying and disappointing. Another aspect of this that is annoying is that major, mission critical open source projects have to dedicate so many resources to Windows. For example this bug in ClojureScript: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969c6a914324f1b9c81f8246d01f0a7 https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969... Imagine if the Clojure team didn't have to worry about file separator differences, and the multitude of other Windows annoyances. How much extra energy, time and resources would they gain? I suspect a lot. EDIT: And I would also say I have every right to complain about Microsoft. Ignoring standards and doing their own thing for their own financial gain at everyone else's expense is definitely worthy of complaint. Also see Internet Explorer.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    >> Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that) I think you need to get out more. Or at least go to meetups that don't only meet at coffee shops. You're cutting out a huge chunk there, and there are still huge chunks that use Windows to do Java, C++, etc. I mean, game development is a multi billion dollar industry that is almost exclusively Windows-but-not-.NET, outside of consoles, and even on consoles it's still Windows in a large number of cases. >> I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? This is different from Google with Android how? This is different from Canonical with Unity how? This is different than RedHat and Debian and pretty much every other major Linux distro with systemd how? And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one.

by city41 11y ago

tvanantwerp 11y ago

As someone who has no choice but to use Windows at work, I'm really sick of all the problems that crop up because so many tools use were written by people who won't use Windows and haven't tested anything on it.

city41 11y ago
I feel your pain, but am not convinced open source maintainers should have to be the ones to resolve the issue. Especially since so many projects are done using spare time and with no compensation.
saosebastiao 11y ago
If I had no choice but to use Windows at work, and using Windows meant I couldn't use a large amount of development tools that I rely on, then the last ones I would blame would be the open source developers that won't use or develop for Windows. Your employer is the problem here.
krisdol 11y ago
Why do you expect developers to pay for software, OSes, and licenses they don't use in order to develop open source software for free? Help them out by contributing, or blame Microsoft who has the resources to make their own OS more compatible Doesnt Microsoft have their own V8 or node.js fork now?
ploxiln 11y ago
Kinda funny isn't it, after a decade where one might be required to use a proprietary VPN or email client that only runs on windows. And those things didn't use standard, published, or even consistent protocols, nor were they open-source. In fact they were hostile to compatible implementations. They had to be reverse-engineered. So now you get just a little, watered-down taste of using the non-preferred platform for something.
tsuraan 11y ago
That's a funny point of view. Windows is made by a multi-billion dollar company, rented by countless wealthy software development shops, but it's volunteer open-source programmers who are supposed to take on the burden of supporting it? Seriously, I can't even comprehend that thought process. I write software for fun, I release it on github, and some people find it useful. If there are other people who don't, they can improve it for their own purposes, or they can find or write something better. I don't think anybody has a right to expect me to support Microsoft's product. That's insane.
- Silhouette 11y ago
  I don't think anybody has a right to expect me to support Microsoft's product. That's insane. True enough, though it's also fair to consider a language/platform/ecosystem inferior for some work if it relies on that kind of individual and often less portable contribution for its effectiveness. A lot of FOSS advocates will promote community support and a broad contributor base as advantages of that style of development, but there is another side to that coin, which is that sometimes you get just what you (didn't) pay for and you're on your own in terms of support or working around any problems.
ag_dubs 11y ago
hi! i totally know this is a common feel for many npmjs users. this is why i've been running an empathy campaign for Windows, Windows Wednesday, where i do all my work (with/for npm) on windows. it's been good for finding bugs, either technical or UX. i'm working on improving the docs to make them friendlier to all platforms (not just OSX, which is the most common platform at npmjs). npmjs cares about the enterprise + windows.
- city41 11y ago
  I think this is the wrong approach. We shouldn't pick up MS's slack, MS should. This just enforces the current situation and keeps enabling MS to ignore the problem.
  - gelasio 11y ago
    So, are you of the opinion that OSS projects should never be built for any commercial, proprietary OS or just Windows (i.e. because it's not Unix)? For instance - OS X window managers suck. Do you think that a project like Spectacle should have never been built because they're just picking up Apple's slack?
    - city41 11y ago
      I don't see how a project like Spectacle, which is OSX specific, relates. If someone wants to make an OS specific project, more power to them. The issue arises on platforms that span OSes, and they just never quite span onto Windows correctly. Microsoft is very happy that Node, Java, Clojure, etc work on Windows. It helps them a lot. But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else. That's my gripe, right there. And to be fair, this is not a black and white situation. It's complex and Microsoft's role in all of this is complex too. And sometimes this issue does crop up on other OSes, for example Docker on OSX is sometimes a little painful.
      - gelasio 11y ago
        "But they make little to no effort to help bridge the gap, they usually leave that to everyone else." OK, but that's also where you're wrong, right there. In general, but also particularly for this exact issue - Microsoft considered attempting to fix the file path limit for the first release of Windows 10. Maybe you don't understand, but it's going to take a herculean effort to fix this. They want to do it and if you need proof of that I can find posts of them talking about what I just said.
Maarten88 11y ago
Yes, npm is very problematic/buggy on Windows. I wasted many hours because of https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/9696 https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/9696 (meaning any build on visual studio online breaks ~50% of the time simply running 'npm install'). Microsoft should finally fix the MAX_PATH issue in Windows, but npm should just fix their software: it's too important to be that buggy.

frik 11y ago

Microsoft initially aimed POSIX compatibility with Windows NT 3.1. There were POSIX subsystems for WinNT 3-5.1. Though, things changed and got worse.

um_ya 11y ago

Better yet, why don't they just make a tool that fixes the windows problem, as a standalone patch. No need to change NPM, just need to fix the problem on Windows... The whole flat folder thing looks really bad.

gelasio 11y ago

It sounds like you're getting annoyed that the devs of certain projects like Node.js have chosen to support an OS that you don't use without asking you about it first... If you're in control of the project - you have every right to ignore Windows users. If you're not in control, then you really have zero right to complain. Zero. Devs certainly aren't forced to "pay the Windows tax" in any way. Plenty of OSS projects completely ignore Windows. I'm sure you're aware though that Windows has the majority market share of desktop operating systems. If your software is interesting to the vast, vast population of Windows users, you might get some requests to support Windows. And since it's not an outlier in the market, other desktop OSes should obviously strive to be more like Windows ;)

city41 11y ago
Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that), then you're in a world dominated by Linux and OSX. I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. Sure, platform specific issues do happen for other OSes, but they are rare. They are extremely common for Windows. For sure, I have no obligation to fix Windows specific issues in my projects. All of my projects are done in my spare time and given away for free. But Windows specific issues are still annoying and disappointing. Another aspect of this that is annoying is that major, mission critical open source projects have to dedicate so many resources to Windows. For example this bug in ClojureScript: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969c6a914324f1b9c81f8246d01f0a7 https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/80d46bdb7969... Imagine if the Clojure team didn't have to worry about file separator differences, and the multitude of other Windows annoyances. How much extra energy, time and resources would they gain? I suspect a lot. EDIT: And I would also say I have every right to complain about Microsoft. Ignoring standards and doing their own thing for their own financial gain at everyone else's expense is definitely worthy of complaint. Also see Internet Explorer.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  >> Windows is very much an outlier in the world of software development. Unless you're specifically using Microsoft tech (ie .NET and all that) I think you need to get out more. Or at least go to meetups that don't only meet at coffee shops. You're cutting out a huge chunk there, and there are still huge chunks that use Windows to do Java, C++, etc. I mean, game development is a multi billion dollar industry that is almost exclusively Windows-but-not-.NET, outside of consoles, and even on consoles it's still Windows in a large number of cases. >> I'm annoyed that Microsoft insists on going forward with a proprietary OS that does not conform to standards that pretty much every single other OS does. This is different from Apple with OSX and iOS how? This is different from Google with Android how? This is different from Canonical with Unity how? This is different than RedHat and Debian and pretty much every other major Linux distro with systemd how? And for crying out loud, file separator issues? That's not even a hard one.