4 ms·

I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement. I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the

I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement. I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising. That said, I have heard anecdotally from a number of people that some of the larger contracting companies game the H1B lottery system with lots of applications to get people here and pay them below market wages (they add a pretty big markup on what they charge their clients). I've seen a lot of articles recently with a similar narrative: that there is no shortage in tech and it is all a ploy. It makes for a compelling story with a clear villain, but I believe the reality (as with most things) is more complex.

jlangenauer 11y ago
Yes, but that's a very specific sub-market with unusual characteristics: the demand for good talent exceeding the supply. This is probably not the case with fruit-pickers or Walmart workers.
- jeffbush 11y ago
  Agreed, I was only responding to the comment about Silicon Valley (which has received a lot of news coverage outside this article)
laughinghan 11y ago
You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising compensation is only more incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were sued for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
- jeffbush 11y ago
  Yes, I was part of that class action, I'm very familiar with it. In fact, when my boss went to a competitor, I actually had a conversation with Steve Jobs about it. My impression was that he was more concerned about losing expertise and trade secrets about the iPhone than wages. The ensuing battle over Android underscores this. I'm not really ignoring the broader point, just responding to the specific point about Silicon Valley.
  - laughinghan 11y ago
    That's certainly a reasonable concern. I hope you suggested some legal ways to keep expertise and trade secrets, like paying people better, not working them to the bone, not getting embroiled in collusion scandals; y'know, the basics. Snark aside, I still think I made the legitimate point that whether or not there is actually a lack of supply in Silicon Valley is close to irrelevant to the comment you were replying to. Even when that is actually the case, responding by manipulating the market is still a problem. So yes, I still think you were ignoring the broader point.
  - laughinghan 11y ago
    I was pretty rude in the other comment and now it's too late to edit it. Thanks for offering your perspective, it's cool to hear from someone close to that situation; and it's cool to hear the perspective of a non-engineer, non-business person in Silicon Valley.
    - jeffbush 11y ago
      No worries :) It is an important point that companies incentives are not always aligned with workers and government has a role to play in making sure they are protected.
fweespeech 11y ago
Hmmm, Google, etc had that lawsuit awhile back? And the h-1b mass hire/fire stuff at various companies for tech workers? It's not a narrative when you have multiple major employers in an industry successfully sued for it.
- jeffbush 11y ago
  Yes, I was at Apple when that happened and remember being told not to approach people from Google. Here's the thing though: Facebook and many other companies here will still hiring. In fact, they were aggressively poaching from Google. So, while what they did was clearly wrong, I don't believe it was a conspiracy to depress wages (Also, Google pays very well and has amazing benefits). Once again, in the media, the simplistic narrative wins. Interestingly, I quit Apple after that and went to a company that declined the no-hire deal with Apple: http://gizmodo.com/5978223/the-no-hire-emails-that-that-involve-apple-google-adobe-and-more http://gizmodo.com/5978223/the-no-hire-emails-that-that-invo....
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    1) I didn't say it was a conspiracy. 2) An agreement between multiple major employers does depress wages. It is precisely why it was banned in the first place. It wasn't just Google & Apple. 3) It has nothing to do with your personal history and I am tired of citing articles from the Fed, etc basically saying there is no overall STEM shortage nationally. 4) The reality is the shortage is an illusory, regional effect largely due to pricing and isn't a US wide phenomena. The average salary is below $100k according to the BLS and in line with other engineering/technical professions.
    - jeffbush 11y ago
      1. Fair enough. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was speaking more to the general theme of articles and discussions on this topic. Their thesis, as I understood it is: "There is no shortage of tech workers (specifically software engineering and IT) and companies like Google are lying about it to reduce wages." 2. Similarly, my comment was on intent, not effect. But this probably won't be a productive line of debate, since intent is hard to prove. 3. I'm a data point, albeit only one. There's a problem using technology industry interchangeably with STEM, which can include things like biotech (which I understand is shrinking because of offshoring). http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem... "At the same time that shortages exist, there are areas with surpluses of STEM talent—most notably, biomedical Ph.D.’s. " Here's another summary of a report that shows: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/the-stem-worker-shortage-is-real http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/the-stem-w... "From 2000 to 2013, analyzing Bureau of Labor Statistics data and adjusting for inflation, median salaries for workers in computer and mathematical, health care practitioner, engineering, and science occupations rose 8 percent, 7 percent, 6 percent and 5 percent respectively, even as those for the average U.S. worker showed no growth." "My recent report analyzes this phenomenon using a rich database with millions of vacancies posted on company websites compiled by Burning Glass, a labor market analytics firm. There are some 40,000 computer science bachelor’s degree earners each year but roughly 4 million job vacancies for computer workers. In all, the median duration of advertising for STEM vacancies is more than twice that of those in other fields." 4. The tech industry is heavily regional, so the fact that it isn't US wide doesn't seem relevant. Likewise, it's not clear how many professions are lumped into that average.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
This is are talking about h2 which is unskilled field workers not h1b visas
gozur88 11y ago
>I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising. The market is always competitive for the top 15%. But that's not usually the case for the rest of the labor pool. What the H-1 program means for companies is they never have to train anyone, they never have to hire anyone over 40, and they never have to make offers that include moving expenses.

jlangenauer 11y ago

Yes, but that's a very specific sub-market with unusual characteristics: the demand for good talent exceeding the supply. This is probably not the case with fruit-pickers or Walmart workers.

jeffbush 11y ago
Agreed, I was only responding to the comment about Silicon Valley (which has received a lot of news coverage outside this article)

laughinghan 11y ago

You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising compensation is only more incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were sued for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

jeffbush 11y ago
Yes, I was part of that class action, I'm very familiar with it. In fact, when my boss went to a competitor, I actually had a conversation with Steve Jobs about it. My impression was that he was more concerned about losing expertise and trade secrets about the iPhone than wages. The ensuing battle over Android underscores this. I'm not really ignoring the broader point, just responding to the specific point about Silicon Valley.
- laughinghan 11y ago
  That's certainly a reasonable concern. I hope you suggested some legal ways to keep expertise and trade secrets, like paying people better, not working them to the bone, not getting embroiled in collusion scandals; y'know, the basics. Snark aside, I still think I made the legitimate point that whether or not there is actually a lack of supply in Silicon Valley is close to irrelevant to the comment you were replying to. Even when that is actually the case, responding by manipulating the market is still a problem. So yes, I still think you were ignoring the broader point.
- laughinghan 11y ago
  I was pretty rude in the other comment and now it's too late to edit it. Thanks for offering your perspective, it's cool to hear from someone close to that situation; and it's cool to hear the perspective of a non-engineer, non-business person in Silicon Valley.
  - jeffbush 11y ago
    No worries :) It is an important point that companies incentives are not always aligned with workers and government has a role to play in making sure they are protected.

fweespeech 11y ago

Hmmm, Google, etc had that lawsuit awhile back? And the h-1b mass hire/fire stuff at various companies for tech workers? It's not a narrative when you have multiple major employers in an industry successfully sued for it.

jeffbush 11y ago
Yes, I was at Apple when that happened and remember being told not to approach people from Google. Here's the thing though: Facebook and many other companies here will still hiring. In fact, they were aggressively poaching from Google. So, while what they did was clearly wrong, I don't believe it was a conspiracy to depress wages (Also, Google pays very well and has amazing benefits). Once again, in the media, the simplistic narrative wins. Interestingly, I quit Apple after that and went to a company that declined the no-hire deal with Apple: http://gizmodo.com/5978223/the-no-hire-emails-that-that-involve-apple-google-adobe-and-more http://gizmodo.com/5978223/the-no-hire-emails-that-that-invo....
- fweespeech 11y ago
  1) I didn't say it was a conspiracy. 2) An agreement between multiple major employers does depress wages. It is precisely why it was banned in the first place. It wasn't just Google & Apple. 3) It has nothing to do with your personal history and I am tired of citing articles from the Fed, etc basically saying there is no overall STEM shortage nationally. 4) The reality is the shortage is an illusory, regional effect largely due to pricing and isn't a US wide phenomena. The average salary is below $100k according to the BLS and in line with other engineering/technical professions.
  - jeffbush 11y ago
    1. Fair enough. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was speaking more to the general theme of articles and discussions on this topic. Their thesis, as I understood it is: "There is no shortage of tech workers (specifically software engineering and IT) and companies like Google are lying about it to reduce wages." 2. Similarly, my comment was on intent, not effect. But this probably won't be a productive line of debate, since intent is hard to prove. 3. I'm a data point, albeit only one. There's a problem using technology industry interchangeably with STEM, which can include things like biotech (which I understand is shrinking because of offshoring). http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem... "At the same time that shortages exist, there are areas with surpluses of STEM talent—most notably, biomedical Ph.D.’s. " Here's another summary of a report that shows: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/the-stem-worker-shortage-is-real http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/09/15/the-stem-w... "From 2000 to 2013, analyzing Bureau of Labor Statistics data and adjusting for inflation, median salaries for workers in computer and mathematical, health care practitioner, engineering, and science occupations rose 8 percent, 7 percent, 6 percent and 5 percent respectively, even as those for the average U.S. worker showed no growth." "My recent report analyzes this phenomenon using a rich database with millions of vacancies posted on company websites compiled by Burning Glass, a labor market analytics firm. There are some 40,000 computer science bachelor’s degree earners each year but roughly 4 million job vacancies for computer workers. In all, the median duration of advertising for STEM vacancies is more than twice that of those in other fields." 4. The tech industry is heavily regional, so the fact that it isn't US wide doesn't seem relevant. Likewise, it's not clear how many professions are lumped into that average.

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

This is are talking about h2 which is unskilled field workers not h1b visas

gozur88 11y ago

>I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising. The market is always competitive for the top 15%. But that's not usually the case for the rest of the labor pool. What the H-1 program means for companies is they never have to train anyone, they never have to hire anyone over 40, and they never have to make offers that include moving expenses.