6 ms·

It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in general, are soul

by wfo 11y ago

It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in general, are soulless and will lie, cheat and steal to pad their profit margins so long as they don't get punished. If they can skirt or bend the law, they will. If they can break it and not get caught, they will. They must, because that's what the free market is -- if it makes them more money, they are forced to or be pushed out of business by someone with fewer principles which act as a crippling liability. When you hear businesses complain about a lack of supply, it's not about a lack of supply, ever. It is bald faced lying with the intent to manipulate the market. Flood the supply with labor and the price drops -- econ 101. Let the people race to the bottom. We've seen it in tech for years; we also see it in farming. In farming it hits home quite a bit harder because these people aren't making $80k instead of $100k, they are being fired and become homeless instead of barely making enough to survive.

iofj 11y ago
Yep this is simply a "we can pay workers with threats of deportion instead of dollars", except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. Thankfully this would be expensive for the government to fix, which for once will benefit these people. Reminds me of the 7/11 scandal in Australia, with the same principle : threatening people with deportion is way cheaper than paying them [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-investigation-exposes-shocking-exploitation-of-convenience-store-workers-20150828-gja276.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-i...
- garrettgrimsley 11y ago
  >except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. They don't have to do any searching, the company will see to it [0] that law enforcement knows exactly where the workers are. Legal status is contingent on employment, end that and the worker is no longer legal. I've worked with more than a dozen people that I know aren't here legally. The people who are illegal don't make noise, we all know what will happen if they do. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0
- serge2k 11y ago
  > So very soon, the threat carries no weight. It does carry weight if you think of these people as law abiding resident aliens (probably hoping for permanent resident status) instead of potential illegal immigrants.
jeffbush 11y ago
I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement. I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising. That said, I have heard anecdotally from a number of people that some of the larger contracting companies game the H1B lottery system with lots of applications to get people here and pay them below market wages (they add a pretty big markup on what they charge their clients). I've seen a lot of articles recently with a similar narrative: that there is no shortage in tech and it is all a ploy. It makes for a compelling story with a clear villain, but I believe the reality (as with most things) is more complex.
- jlangenauer 11y ago
  Yes, but that's a very specific sub-market with unusual characteristics: the demand for good talent exceeding the supply. This is probably not the case with fruit-pickers or Walmart workers.
  - jeffbush 11y ago
    Agreed, I was only responding to the comment about Silicon Valley (which has received a lot of news coverage outside this article)
- laughinghan 11y ago
  You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising compensation is only more incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were sued for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
  - 11y ago

by wfo 11y ago

iofj 11y ago

Yep this is simply a "we can pay workers with threats of deportion instead of dollars", except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. Thankfully this would be expensive for the government to fix, which for once will benefit these people. Reminds me of the 7/11 scandal in Australia, with the same principle : threatening people with deportion is way cheaper than paying them [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-investigation-exposes-shocking-exploitation-of-convenience-store-workers-20150828-gja276.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-i...

garrettgrimsley 11y ago
>except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. They don't have to do any searching, the company will see to it [0] that law enforcement knows exactly where the workers are. Legal status is contingent on employment, end that and the worker is no longer legal. I've worked with more than a dozen people that I know aren't here legally. The people who are illegal don't make noise, we all know what will happen if they do. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0
serge2k 11y ago
> So very soon, the threat carries no weight. It does carry weight if you think of these people as law abiding resident aliens (probably hoping for permanent resident status) instead of potential illegal immigrants.

jeffbush 11y ago

I respectfully disagree, at least partially, with your statement. I've been a hiring manager for over a decade in Silicon Valley and my experience is that the market is very competitive now. Most candidates I've spoken with are talking to multiple companies and many have offers pending. Compensation seems to be steadily rising. That said, I have heard anecdotally from a number of people that some of the larger contracting companies game the H1B lottery system with lots of applications to get people here and pay them below market wages (they add a pretty big markup on what they charge their clients). I've seen a lot of articles recently with a similar narrative: that there is no shortage in tech and it is all a ploy. It makes for a compelling story with a clear villain, but I believe the reality (as with most things) is more complex.

jlangenauer 11y ago
Yes, but that's a very specific sub-market with unusual characteristics: the demand for good talent exceeding the supply. This is probably not the case with fruit-pickers or Walmart workers.
- jeffbush 11y ago
  Agreed, I was only responding to the comment about Silicon Valley (which has received a lot of news coverage outside this article)
laughinghan 11y ago
You appear to be arguing against the assertion that the "lack of supply" in Silicon Valley is "bald faced lying" to "flood the market", but you're ignoring the broader point which is still very much true, namely, that if businesses can manipulate the market, they will, and steadily rising compensation is only more incentive to do so. This isn't "just a few bad apples", giants like "Don't Be Evil" Google, Apple (emails personally written by Steve Jobs were used as evidence), Adobe, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar were sued for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
- 11y ago