11 ms·

'All You Americans Are Fired'

130 points by mudil 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- etchalon 11y ago
  I'd like to see a citation on the "failure of most government programs" as I believe that statement is specious nonsense.
- TheBiv 11y ago
  >"But the fear that immigrants are 'taking our jobs' is largely unfounded" Except the entire article was about how real that fear is for certain workers in certain industries. Immigrants aren't taking jobs in every industry, but clearly they are in some industries.
  - onion2k 11y ago
    Immigrants aren't taking the jobs. They're being given them by the business owner. It's a subtle difference, but it reframes where the blame lies, which is important.
    - blfr 11y ago
      It's a distinction without a difference. Either way, you need to stop immigration or bar immigrants from employment to stop the process.
      - onion2k 11y ago
        Or make business owners pay legal immigrants and residents the same fair wage and give them the same conditions so there's no longer an incentive to choose one over the other. As for illegal immigrants, any business that employs them should be fined the value of the wages they saved, so again there's no incentive to employ them. All of this comes down to business owners screwing over residents to save a few bucks. It's not the fault of immigrants.
        blfr 11y ago
        If the business owner paid immigrants the same living or otherwise higher wage then they would still be taking (or the business would be giving if you prefer) the jobs from the locals. This would also create an incentive to hire locals because they know the language and culture. However, there is no way for the wage to stay high while the you increase the supply of labour from a handful of locals to the entire poor population of the world. Illegal immigrants are entirely complicit here. They want to make a few bucks just like the business owners want to save a few bucks. This is a classic tragedy of the commons (the commons here being a nice western country). The only party that can fix things is the government. Or an owner of the country if there was one.
        DrScump 11y ago
        "As for illegal immigrants, any business that employs them should be fined the value of the wages they saved..." If the worst consequence they could suffer is break-even, you continue the financial incentive of breaking the law.
        gozur88 11y ago
        Legal or illegal it doesn't matter. We don't have enough low and un-skilled jobs for the people who live here. Adding more labor to that pool just means those people have no hope of increased real wages. Especially under current conditions, when a guest worker gets a job all the bunnies roll over and a citizen ends up on welfare.
      - lmm 11y ago
        Or you could change the conditions that lead employers to favour immigrants - make it harder for employers to threaten guest workers with deportation, make sure everyone working on a guest visa is aware of their rights and has access to legal representation.
gozur88 11y ago
I don't understand how this could be news to anyone. The US has the lowest labor force participation since before women entered the workforce. The H-2 program, like the H-1 program, is just a way to flood the labor market so employees will never enjoy the sorts of labor shortages that are the only way to raise real wages.
maxk42 11y ago
Buzzfeed is not a credible news source.
- virmundi 11y ago
  In this instance they appear to have done their footwork. They requested for comment on multiple items. They said what they asked and that they were not responded to. They showed a history of companies creating terrible conditions (such as the old bus houses) for their migrants. They showed people suing for lost wages after being looked over for a job (such as the horse lady). While it's true that settling a lawsuit doesn't mean that they're guilty, with the evidence presented it appears that they probably were. It also shows a wide, possibly systemic response to such abuses on the part of the government: slaps on the wrist for violating the program. Edited: a typo, missing "y" in sentence They showed a history...
- Aloha 11y ago
  this looks pretty well researched.
- positr0n 11y ago
  They actually have a pretty well-regarded "serious" journalism team. Times is the only outlet with a reporter on the ground, which makes everyone happy until another editor says, “I think BuzzFeed actually has somebody there.” There is momentary silence. - https://stratechery.com/2015/buzzfeed-important-news-organization-world/ https://stratechery.com/2015/buzzfeed-important-news-organiz...
- nl 11y ago
  Buzzfeed is the only news source here in Australia that has a political reporter in parliament who doesn't appear captured by political interests.
- beisner 11y ago
  Buzzfeed is a credible news source. It just so happens that they are, so far, the only news outlet to become profitable online, mainly through content for which they have been stigmatized and which you seem to be criticizing. That being said, as the only profitable online news outlet, they have started to build up a rather high-quality long-form journalism team, of which this article is a product. It seems as though clickbait and low-quality content are the unfortunate price modern news companies must pay to make money online in the 21st century. I wouldn't be surprised if Buzzfeed becomes the dominant online news source in the next 10 years, both of trash and real journalism.
fiatmoney 11y ago
In many cases, landowners are upset that their serfs have deserted the land, and have called for the feds to arrest and return them. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404921204162376 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873239163045784049...
such_a_casual 11y ago
I am shocked at the amount of H-2 visas in California. We have perfectly good illegal immigrants here and always have going all the way back to the missionaries. There is absolutely no reason any company should be denying these people jobs just to import nice fancy government selected employees.
taytus 11y ago
Buzzfeed Investigation. That should be the best oxymoron of 2015.
- rubiquity 11y ago
  I'm still shocked there wasn't a gif in the middle of this post showing me how to cook onion rings smothered in ranch dressing, bacon and cheese.
- wfo 11y ago
  Buzzfeed has begun to do some serious long-form journalism and much of it is quite, quite good. It's kind of unsettling looking at the URL but it's not the first real article from them. I guess they've found a way to fund journalism -- one article per 300 clickbait ad-filled listicles.
- randycupertino 11y ago
  It's crazy but Buzzfeed has actually improved some of its reporting. They have an actual "reporting team" now that do real investigative work and not just listicles. I know that's almost impossible to believe. But they've impressed me with a few articles recently and I was really surprised! Edit- see this article about how they are hiring actual reporters: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06/15/buzzfeed-expands-as-journalism-force/71250444/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06...
  - djsumdog 11y ago
    Even so, I still would rather read someone else. Just because Huffington Post might be considered legitimate now doesn't erase the fact that they started by not paying anyone (or paying then with "exposure" instead of read money).
- dingo_bat 11y ago
  There always seem to be a couple such articles in Buzzfeed that are so well-written and on a credible topic, that I have to double-check the URL a couple times. I guess this is there way to redeem all the senseless click bait crap they pollute the internet with.
usaphp 11y ago
> "said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash" I always wondered, what makes people that have a low paying job want to have so many children, I am making pretty good money but I am still having trouble keeping up with expenses (pre-school, clothes, food) with my only child, I always wondered how do those people survive with 6 kids.
- etchalon 11y ago
  They live a fundamentally different lifestyle than you do.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- ldehaan 11y ago
  Work smarter, not harder. I have 5 kids and it's been financially taxing, but I work hard to learn the skills that will pay the most. Overall I'd say I spend 3-4 hours a day reading up on my field, and it took a lot of practice but now it's just a habit. I learn tons of things though,and it enables me to move from job to job and increase my pay as I implement the things I learn ( and practice on my own for a bit before trying it with a client )
  - usaphp 11y ago
    I think you have not read my comment. I am not asking how to make more money, I am wondering how people with low paying jobs can keep up with financial expenses of having 6 kids
    - wyclif 11y ago
      And the answer is that having one or two kids isn't much less expensive than having six. Clothes are handed down, as are bedroom furniture, toys, bikes, athletic equipment, etc. And people with low paying jobs usually don't send all those kids to college.
wfo 11y ago
It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in general, are soulless and will lie, cheat and steal to pad their profit margins so long as they don't get punished. If they can skirt or bend the law, they will. If they can break it and not get caught, they will. They must, because that's what the free market is -- if it makes them more money, they are forced to or be pushed out of business by someone with fewer principles which act as a crippling liability. When you hear businesses complain about a lack of supply, it's not about a lack of supply, ever. It is bald faced lying with the intent to manipulate the market. Flood the supply with labor and the price drops -- econ 101. Let the people race to the bottom. We've seen it in tech for years; we also see it in farming. In farming it hits home quite a bit harder because these people aren't making $80k instead of $100k, they are being fired and become homeless instead of barely making enough to survive.
- iofj 11y ago
  Yep this is simply a "we can pay workers with threats of deportion instead of dollars", except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. Thankfully this would be expensive for the government to fix, which for once will benefit these people. Reminds me of the 7/11 scandal in Australia, with the same principle : threatening people with deportion is way cheaper than paying them [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-investigation-exposes-shocking-exploitation-of-convenience-store-workers-20150828-gja276.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-i...
  - garrettgrimsley 11y ago
    >except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. They don't have to do any searching, the company will see to it [0] that law enforcement knows exactly where the workers are. Legal status is contingent on employment, end that and the worker is no longer legal. I've worked with more than a dozen people that I know aren't here legally. The people who are illegal don't make noise, we all know what will happen if they do. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0
Nickersf 11y ago
Abstract: the oligarchy wants slaves to work for them. The US workers want modern wages and living standards. The foreign workers will do this because they think they're escaping at times worse conditions. This is treason, and these oligarchs should be punished. Of course people are going to go on welfare and government aid in conditions like this. Deplorable, and disgusting. Makes me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.
- jheriko 11y ago
  I think you missed a critical point from this, its not just that foreigners have lower standards, its that they do better work as well. It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans... thats a serious issue all of its own and makes the whole situation less conspiracy theory and more capitalism.
  - Nickersf 11y ago
    The report also pointed out that many of the foreign workers lack the communication skills to defend themselves from mistreatment. Even if US citizens are in some cases less productive, denying citizens jobs is wrong, and the big point I get from this is that neither the H-2 workers or the US workers should be paid slave wages. Capitalism is driven by consumerism. What's the point of having it when the people don't earn enough to consume commodities. I think this is part of the reason why our country is trillions of dollars in debt. The distribution of wealth is not balanced at all. Please don't get me wrong. I don't think the nations economic capital should be divided equally among every person, but as it stands the inequality is just off. Clearly all of this explodes into many complex topics. It just hurts to see people with money and power act so poorly.
  - omegaworks 11y ago
    > It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans... Of course you can squeeze more effort out of people you can physically retaliate against (deportation). >less conspiracy theory and more capitalism. More like corporate welfare. The machinery of low fines and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a kind of subsidization. From an economic perspective, foreign labor is forced to price themselves below their real value because they are left with no choice in the matter.
jheriko 11y ago
the underlying problem here is not surprising... that foreign workers are more productive. if that wasn't the case the incentive for this behaviour would disappear. regulating employment to encourage employing natives is not the solution to this problem. it quite obviously hurts the economy and makes that same problem /worse/. no idea how to fix it though... its a tough one.
- rdtsc 11y ago
  > that foreign workers are more productive. Yeah but we still have to explain why. Home come they are more productive? Do they have different, more powerful genes. Did they go to cherry picking academy as children? Have longer arms? They seem to be more productive even living in school buses and pretty terrible conditions! Of course I am being sarcastic here to illustrate a point. They are productive because they are scared. Put a gun to anyone's head, and they'll be very productive. Threaten their children with starvation back home, and you'd be surprised how early they'll rise and bike through the snow or rain to their job. The other side of the coin is ugly too. Are the immigrant workers more productive because somehow American workers looking for these jobs are un-productive as a group. That is a tough topic to discuss without getting into dangerous waters. The article brings those comments up from employers' perspective.
  - jheriko 11y ago
    the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic - i struggle to understand how people can realistically believe these things if they have much real world experience. i'm sure it happens, but its not the common case... its certainly not organised on the scale that people make out. it would be very difficult to make that sort of thing happen whilst making it in the best interest of everyone involved to not expose it for their own gain... it would tear itself apart from the inside or get caught out very quickly.
    - rdtsc 11y ago
      > the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic Wait, did I say that? Did you respond to the wrong comment?
rdtsc 11y ago
> The Labor Department ultimately ordered the Westin Kierland, which has a championship golf course, multiple pools, and a 900-foot “lazy river” spread over 262 acres, to pay a total of $13,500 ... Right. So what incentive do they have to stop doing it in the future? It is not even like speeding where you get points added to your driving record and insurance premiums go up. $13k in case Dept of Labor finds time to look at them closely again is really just emptying the take-a-penny jar by the front door for them. > Around Moultrie, the resentment goes both ways. ... That is a very effective tactic. Get workers to hate each other, it gives them someone to focus on -- the other group, so they put less blame on the policies or employers.
csours 11y ago
>When American workers showed up to apply for a job at Pro Landscape, in Hillsboro, Oregon, they were told they would have to dig a trench four feet long, a foot and a half wide, and a foot and a half deep within five minutes to be considered for the position, according to Labor Department records. WTF? With a shovel? You could move that much loose soil, but in many types of soil you could not do that without a backhoe at that speed.
- pjc50 11y ago
  That's the point: set people an unpassable test if they don't want to hire them.
grecy 11y ago
Exactly this also happens in Canada. A business (usually a chain like Walmart, McDonald's, Canadian Tire, etc.) opens and wants to pay staff minimum wage. No Canadian will take that rate of pay, because the standard of living it provides is too low, especially in high cost of living areas like the North. In that case the business should either pay more, or it doesn't have any business existing. Instead those businesses have a rubber-stamp deal with the government to bring in foreign workers, who they can exploit with the power of deportation for years. I personally have been to houses where 2, 3 or 4 entire families are living in a single house, because that's all the can afford. So the final result is that local Canadians don't have a job, the standard of living for everyone in Canada comes down, and (yay!) those businesses make ever more profit, in a location where they have no business operating. (Disclaimer: I myself am an immigrant to Canada and went through this process. Yes, I'm complaining about the hand that fed me. I'm a Software Engineer, I was told by my local member of parliament the best way to immigrate was to work at Walmart for 2-4 years because they always get approved.)
- randycupertino 11y ago
  Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well. Also a casino I worked at in New England did this- they bused in undocumented asian immigrants from NYC and paid them in food and under the table to do their cleaning, laundry facilities, etc. They would work for two weeks, sleep in shifts in this local motel and then take the bus back to NYC to send $$ back to their families.
  - grecy 11y ago
    >Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well Very true. The pressure from the big resorts in BC are the reason that Australians under 31 can get unlimited 2 year work visas, as opposed to the one-time 1 year visa they used to get
gscott 11y ago
Firing a group of people makes the remaining people have some fear they will get fired too. This might be a tactic to get even more labor out of the remaining employees.
wtracy 11y ago
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why the H-2 program exists at all. The H-1B program I can understand: You need talent now, and can't just wait four years for someone to complete the relevant degree. But for unskilled labor? You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country? As long as there are people collecting unemployment in the US, you have no business bringing more people in. (Also, three months' experience required, seriously? What is so urgent that it can't wait three months and so esoteric that it requires exactly three months' training to do? You can damn well hire someone now, and magically, three months from now, they will have three months' experience!)
- cbd1984 11y ago
  > You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country? Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor? Do you have any idea how expensive it is to move, and all for a McDonald's job or equivalent?
  - gozur88 11y ago
    >Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor? If it doesn't make sense to move from Michigan, how does it make sense to move from Guatemala?
    - jqm 11y ago
      Because the increase in wages vs Guatemala wages makes it worthwhile.
      - gozur88 11y ago
        An unemployed guy in Michigan isn't making any more than an unemployed guy in Guatemala.
- jqm 11y ago
  Picking lettuce is a skill believe it or not. I know because I've worked in the industry. I don't agree with shady tactics (newspaper ads in other cities etc, I've seen those too). I also know many big farms are often one step away from slavers and abuse laborers for a small profit. That being said, it's sad but true that foreign laborers do have the skills and desire to do things Americans for the most part don't and won't. You can argue this and claim it isn't so.. it very much is so and I've seen it over and over and I know for certain that it's the case. I wish it wasn't. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not for slave wages. I'm not for importing lots of cheap foreign labor. But I don't want to pay $6 for a head of lettuce either. Maybe you and I don't mind... but for many people that kind of raise in food prices would be catastrophic. Hopefully robotics solves some of the problem shortly. Which of course introduces a whole new set of problems.
jgalt212 11y ago
> “We want to go to work and work all day,” said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash. Holy cow. What kind of agricultural working thinks he'll have the means to support six kids? Sometimes the poor are poor because they are oppressed and sometimes they are poor because they make incredibly bad decisions.

130 points by mudil 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

etchalon 11y ago
I'd like to see a citation on the "failure of most government programs" as I believe that statement is specious nonsense.
TheBiv 11y ago
>"But the fear that immigrants are 'taking our jobs' is largely unfounded" Except the entire article was about how real that fear is for certain workers in certain industries. Immigrants aren't taking jobs in every industry, but clearly they are in some industries.
- onion2k 11y ago
  Immigrants aren't taking the jobs. They're being given them by the business owner. It's a subtle difference, but it reframes where the blame lies, which is important.
  - blfr 11y ago
    It's a distinction without a difference. Either way, you need to stop immigration or bar immigrants from employment to stop the process.
    - onion2k 11y ago
      Or make business owners pay legal immigrants and residents the same fair wage and give them the same conditions so there's no longer an incentive to choose one over the other. As for illegal immigrants, any business that employs them should be fined the value of the wages they saved, so again there's no incentive to employ them. All of this comes down to business owners screwing over residents to save a few bucks. It's not the fault of immigrants.
      - blfr 11y ago
        If the business owner paid immigrants the same living or otherwise higher wage then they would still be taking (or the business would be giving if you prefer) the jobs from the locals. This would also create an incentive to hire locals because they know the language and culture. However, there is no way for the wage to stay high while the you increase the supply of labour from a handful of locals to the entire poor population of the world. Illegal immigrants are entirely complicit here. They want to make a few bucks just like the business owners want to save a few bucks. This is a classic tragedy of the commons (the commons here being a nice western country). The only party that can fix things is the government. Or an owner of the country if there was one.
      - DrScump 11y ago
        "As for illegal immigrants, any business that employs them should be fined the value of the wages they saved..." If the worst consequence they could suffer is break-even, you continue the financial incentive of breaking the law.
      - gozur88 11y ago
        Legal or illegal it doesn't matter. We don't have enough low and un-skilled jobs for the people who live here. Adding more labor to that pool just means those people have no hope of increased real wages. Especially under current conditions, when a guest worker gets a job all the bunnies roll over and a citizen ends up on welfare.
    - lmm 11y ago
      Or you could change the conditions that lead employers to favour immigrants - make it harder for employers to threaten guest workers with deportation, make sure everyone working on a guest visa is aware of their rights and has access to legal representation.

gozur88 11y ago

I don't understand how this could be news to anyone. The US has the lowest labor force participation since before women entered the workforce. The H-2 program, like the H-1 program, is just a way to flood the labor market so employees will never enjoy the sorts of labor shortages that are the only way to raise real wages.

maxk42 11y ago

Buzzfeed is not a credible news source.

virmundi 11y ago
In this instance they appear to have done their footwork. They requested for comment on multiple items. They said what they asked and that they were not responded to. They showed a history of companies creating terrible conditions (such as the old bus houses) for their migrants. They showed people suing for lost wages after being looked over for a job (such as the horse lady). While it's true that settling a lawsuit doesn't mean that they're guilty, with the evidence presented it appears that they probably were. It also shows a wide, possibly systemic response to such abuses on the part of the government: slaps on the wrist for violating the program. Edited: a typo, missing "y" in sentence They showed a history...
Aloha 11y ago
this looks pretty well researched.
positr0n 11y ago
They actually have a pretty well-regarded "serious" journalism team. Times is the only outlet with a reporter on the ground, which makes everyone happy until another editor says, “I think BuzzFeed actually has somebody there.” There is momentary silence. - https://stratechery.com/2015/buzzfeed-important-news-organization-world/ https://stratechery.com/2015/buzzfeed-important-news-organiz...
nl 11y ago
Buzzfeed is the only news source here in Australia that has a political reporter in parliament who doesn't appear captured by political interests.
beisner 11y ago
Buzzfeed is a credible news source. It just so happens that they are, so far, the only news outlet to become profitable online, mainly through content for which they have been stigmatized and which you seem to be criticizing. That being said, as the only profitable online news outlet, they have started to build up a rather high-quality long-form journalism team, of which this article is a product. It seems as though clickbait and low-quality content are the unfortunate price modern news companies must pay to make money online in the 21st century. I wouldn't be surprised if Buzzfeed becomes the dominant online news source in the next 10 years, both of trash and real journalism.

fiatmoney 11y ago

In many cases, landowners are upset that their serfs have deserted the land, and have called for the feds to arrest and return them. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323916304578404921204162376 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873239163045784049...

such_a_casual 11y ago

I am shocked at the amount of H-2 visas in California. We have perfectly good illegal immigrants here and always have going all the way back to the missionaries. There is absolutely no reason any company should be denying these people jobs just to import nice fancy government selected employees.

taytus 11y ago

Buzzfeed Investigation. That should be the best oxymoron of 2015.

rubiquity 11y ago
I'm still shocked there wasn't a gif in the middle of this post showing me how to cook onion rings smothered in ranch dressing, bacon and cheese.
wfo 11y ago
Buzzfeed has begun to do some serious long-form journalism and much of it is quite, quite good. It's kind of unsettling looking at the URL but it's not the first real article from them. I guess they've found a way to fund journalism -- one article per 300 clickbait ad-filled listicles.
randycupertino 11y ago
It's crazy but Buzzfeed has actually improved some of its reporting. They have an actual "reporting team" now that do real investigative work and not just listicles. I know that's almost impossible to believe. But they've impressed me with a few articles recently and I was really surprised! Edit- see this article about how they are hiring actual reporters: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06/15/buzzfeed-expands-as-journalism-force/71250444/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/rieder/2015/06...
- djsumdog 11y ago
  Even so, I still would rather read someone else. Just because Huffington Post might be considered legitimate now doesn't erase the fact that they started by not paying anyone (or paying then with "exposure" instead of read money).
dingo_bat 11y ago
There always seem to be a couple such articles in Buzzfeed that are so well-written and on a credible topic, that I have to double-check the URL a couple times. I guess this is there way to redeem all the senseless click bait crap they pollute the internet with.

usaphp 11y ago

> "said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash" I always wondered, what makes people that have a low paying job want to have so many children, I am making pretty good money but I am still having trouble keeping up with expenses (pre-school, clothes, food) with my only child, I always wondered how do those people survive with 6 kids.

etchalon 11y ago
They live a fundamentally different lifestyle than you do.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
ldehaan 11y ago
Work smarter, not harder. I have 5 kids and it's been financially taxing, but I work hard to learn the skills that will pay the most. Overall I'd say I spend 3-4 hours a day reading up on my field, and it took a lot of practice but now it's just a habit. I learn tons of things though,and it enables me to move from job to job and increase my pay as I implement the things I learn ( and practice on my own for a bit before trying it with a client )
- usaphp 11y ago
  I think you have not read my comment. I am not asking how to make more money, I am wondering how people with low paying jobs can keep up with financial expenses of having 6 kids
  - wyclif 11y ago
    And the answer is that having one or two kids isn't much less expensive than having six. Clothes are handed down, as are bedroom furniture, toys, bikes, athletic equipment, etc. And people with low paying jobs usually don't send all those kids to college.

wfo 11y ago

It really highlights a truism we sometimes forget if we read too many inspirational biographical one-of-a-kind success stories: businesses, in general, are soulless and will lie, cheat and steal to pad their profit margins so long as they don't get punished. If they can skirt or bend the law, they will. If they can break it and not get caught, they will. They must, because that's what the free market is -- if it makes them more money, they are forced to or be pushed out of business by someone with fewer principles which act as a crippling liability. When you hear businesses complain about a lack of supply, it's not about a lack of supply, ever. It is bald faced lying with the intent to manipulate the market. Flood the supply with labor and the price drops -- econ 101. Let the people race to the bottom. We've seen it in tech for years; we also see it in farming. In farming it hits home quite a bit harder because these people aren't making $80k instead of $100k, they are being fired and become homeless instead of barely making enough to survive.

iofj 11y ago
Yep this is simply a "we can pay workers with threats of deportion instead of dollars", except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. Thankfully this would be expensive for the government to fix, which for once will benefit these people. Reminds me of the 7/11 scandal in Australia, with the same principle : threatening people with deportion is way cheaper than paying them [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-investigation-exposes-shocking-exploitation-of-convenience-store-workers-20150828-gja276.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-i...
- garrettgrimsley 11y ago
  >except the police doesn't actually search much, if at all, for illegal immigrants. So very soon, the threat carries no weight. They don't have to do any searching, the company will see to it [0] that law enforcement knows exactly where the workers are. Legal status is contingent on employment, end that and the worker is no longer legal. I've worked with more than a dozen people that I know aren't here legally. The people who are illegal don't make noise, we all know what will happen if they do. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/us/26immig.html?_r=0

Nickersf 11y ago

Abstract: the oligarchy wants slaves to work for them. The US workers want modern wages and living standards. The foreign workers will do this because they think they're escaping at times worse conditions. This is treason, and these oligarchs should be punished. Of course people are going to go on welfare and government aid in conditions like this. Deplorable, and disgusting. Makes me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.

jheriko 11y ago
I think you missed a critical point from this, its not just that foreigners have lower standards, its that they do better work as well. It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans... thats a serious issue all of its own and makes the whole situation less conspiracy theory and more capitalism.
- Nickersf 11y ago
  The report also pointed out that many of the foreign workers lack the communication skills to defend themselves from mistreatment. Even if US citizens are in some cases less productive, denying citizens jobs is wrong, and the big point I get from this is that neither the H-2 workers or the US workers should be paid slave wages. Capitalism is driven by consumerism. What's the point of having it when the people don't earn enough to consume commodities. I think this is part of the reason why our country is trillions of dollars in debt. The distribution of wealth is not balanced at all. Please don't get me wrong. I don't think the nations economic capital should be divided equally among every person, but as it stands the inequality is just off. Clearly all of this explodes into many complex topics. It just hurts to see people with money and power act so poorly.
- omegaworks 11y ago
  > It even quotes a guy pointing out that you get significantly worse value for money hiring americans... Of course you can squeeze more effort out of people you can physically retaliate against (deportation). >less conspiracy theory and more capitalism. More like corporate welfare. The machinery of low fines and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a kind of subsidization. From an economic perspective, foreign labor is forced to price themselves below their real value because they are left with no choice in the matter.

jheriko 11y ago

the underlying problem here is not surprising... that foreign workers are more productive. if that wasn't the case the incentive for this behaviour would disappear. regulating employment to encourage employing natives is not the solution to this problem. it quite obviously hurts the economy and makes that same problem /worse/. no idea how to fix it though... its a tough one.

rdtsc 11y ago
> that foreign workers are more productive. Yeah but we still have to explain why. Home come they are more productive? Do they have different, more powerful genes. Did they go to cherry picking academy as children? Have longer arms? They seem to be more productive even living in school buses and pretty terrible conditions! Of course I am being sarcastic here to illustrate a point. They are productive because they are scared. Put a gun to anyone's head, and they'll be very productive. Threaten their children with starvation back home, and you'd be surprised how early they'll rise and bike through the snow or rain to their job. The other side of the coin is ugly too. Are the immigrant workers more productive because somehow American workers looking for these jobs are un-productive as a group. That is a tough topic to discuss without getting into dangerous waters. The article brings those comments up from employers' perspective.
- jheriko 11y ago
  the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic - i struggle to understand how people can realistically believe these things if they have much real world experience. i'm sure it happens, but its not the common case... its certainly not organised on the scale that people make out. it would be very difficult to make that sort of thing happen whilst making it in the best interest of everyone involved to not expose it for their own gain... it would tear itself apart from the inside or get caught out very quickly.
  - rdtsc 11y ago
    > the idea that there is large scale organised bullying of migrant workers is so fantastic Wait, did I say that? Did you respond to the wrong comment?

rdtsc 11y ago

> The Labor Department ultimately ordered the Westin Kierland, which has a championship golf course, multiple pools, and a 900-foot “lazy river” spread over 262 acres, to pay a total of $13,500 ... Right. So what incentive do they have to stop doing it in the future? It is not even like speeding where you get points added to your driving record and insurance premiums go up. $13k in case Dept of Labor finds time to look at them closely again is really just emptying the take-a-penny jar by the front door for them. > Around Moultrie, the resentment goes both ways. ... That is a very effective tactic. Get workers to hate each other, it gives them someone to focus on -- the other group, so they put less blame on the policies or employers.

csours 11y ago

>When American workers showed up to apply for a job at Pro Landscape, in Hillsboro, Oregon, they were told they would have to dig a trench four feet long, a foot and a half wide, and a foot and a half deep within five minutes to be considered for the position, according to Labor Department records. WTF? With a shovel? You could move that much loose soil, but in many types of soil you could not do that without a backhoe at that speed.

pjc50 11y ago
That's the point: set people an unpassable test if they don't want to hire them.

grecy 11y ago

Exactly this also happens in Canada. A business (usually a chain like Walmart, McDonald's, Canadian Tire, etc.) opens and wants to pay staff minimum wage. No Canadian will take that rate of pay, because the standard of living it provides is too low, especially in high cost of living areas like the North. In that case the business should either pay more, or it doesn't have any business existing. Instead those businesses have a rubber-stamp deal with the government to bring in foreign workers, who they can exploit with the power of deportation for years. I personally have been to houses where 2, 3 or 4 entire families are living in a single house, because that's all the can afford. So the final result is that local Canadians don't have a job, the standard of living for everyone in Canada comes down, and (yay!) those businesses make ever more profit, in a location where they have no business operating. (Disclaimer: I myself am an immigrant to Canada and went through this process. Yes, I'm complaining about the hand that fed me. I'm a Software Engineer, I was told by my local member of parliament the best way to immigrate was to work at Walmart for 2-4 years because they always get approved.)

randycupertino 11y ago
Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well. Also a casino I worked at in New England did this- they bused in undocumented asian immigrants from NYC and paid them in food and under the table to do their cleaning, laundry facilities, etc. They would work for two weeks, sleep in shifts in this local motel and then take the bus back to NYC to send $$ back to their families.
- grecy 11y ago
  >Ski resorts are notorious for doing this as well Very true. The pressure from the big resorts in BC are the reason that Australians under 31 can get unlimited 2 year work visas, as opposed to the one-time 1 year visa they used to get

gscott 11y ago

Firing a group of people makes the remaining people have some fear they will get fired too. This might be a tactic to get even more labor out of the remaining employees.

wtracy 11y ago

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why the H-2 program exists at all. The H-1B program I can understand: You need talent now, and can't just wait four years for someone to complete the relevant degree. But for unskilled labor? You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country? As long as there are people collecting unemployment in the US, you have no business bringing more people in. (Also, three months' experience required, seriously? What is so urgent that it can't wait three months and so esoteric that it requires exactly three months' training to do? You can damn well hire someone now, and magically, three months from now, they will have three months' experience!)

cbd1984 11y ago
> You're telling me that you can't find the workers you need anywhere in the country? Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor? Do you have any idea how expensive it is to move, and all for a McDonald's job or equivalent?
- gozur88 11y ago
  >Do you expect someone to move from Michigan to Louisiana to perform unskilled labor? If it doesn't make sense to move from Michigan, how does it make sense to move from Guatemala?
  - jqm 11y ago
    Because the increase in wages vs Guatemala wages makes it worthwhile.
    - gozur88 11y ago
      An unemployed guy in Michigan isn't making any more than an unemployed guy in Guatemala.
jqm 11y ago
Picking lettuce is a skill believe it or not. I know because I've worked in the industry. I don't agree with shady tactics (newspaper ads in other cities etc, I've seen those too). I also know many big farms are often one step away from slavers and abuse laborers for a small profit. That being said, it's sad but true that foreign laborers do have the skills and desire to do things Americans for the most part don't and won't. You can argue this and claim it isn't so.. it very much is so and I've seen it over and over and I know for certain that it's the case. I wish it wasn't. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not for slave wages. I'm not for importing lots of cheap foreign labor. But I don't want to pay $6 for a head of lettuce either. Maybe you and I don't mind... but for many people that kind of raise in food prices would be catastrophic. Hopefully robotics solves some of the problem shortly. Which of course introduces a whole new set of problems.

jgalt212 11y ago

> “We want to go to work and work all day,” said Derrick Green, 32, a father of six who said he was fired by Hamilton Growers in 2012 after only three weeks picking squash. Holy cow. What kind of agricultural working thinks he'll have the means to support six kids? Sometimes the poor are poor because they are oppressed and sometimes they are poor because they make incredibly bad decisions.