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How Blue Lights on Train Platforms Combat Tokyo’s Suicide Epidemic

102 points by bemmu 11y ago

Perixoog 11y ago
Anecdotally I saw blue led lighting to prevent at a train station for a London Airport (I think Gatwick). The platform guard didn't seem to think it made any difference, and that it was bought at the end of a budget period.
Someone 11y ago
That 84% fall in number of suicides surprised me, so I googled around a bit. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-colored-light-prevent-suicide/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-co... gives some more reasonable account (part of the change may be that people do not commit suicide _there_) and references the paper in question (http://phys.org/news/2008-12-blue-streetlights-crime-suicide.html http://phys.org/news/2008-12-blue-streetlights-crime-suicide...) which is titled (emphasis added): "Blue streetlights may prevent crime, suicide". Unfortunately, I cannot find the text. As to the effect, I now think it may be real in the sense that it prevents suicide on impulse. People who are suicidal all the time will probably find another place or method to do so, but people who just feel miserable and have suicidal impulses may be prevented from jumping. And of course, that may change once people have grown up in cities that are illuminated sky-blue throughout the night.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Most suicide is impulsive, so preventing access to means and methods is a useful way to reduce numbers of suicide. As the population changes younger people find new methods, so it's not enough by itself.
  - sp332 11y ago
    They don't always find new methods. For example when gas stoves became less common in Britain, the suicide rate went down and stayed down.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Yes, and similarly when car exhausts became cleaner. But if you look at other changes (eg limiting the sizes of paracetamol packets sold over the counter) we see a shift from paracetamol to opiates or tri-cyclics or anti-psychotics.
      - clort 11y ago
        that could be, that if want to kill yourself using tablets then you have to plan and go out and buy them in advance, whereas if you want to kill yourself using the gas oven then its simple to turn it on and put your head in. those who formulate a plan and carry it out are more likely to formulate an alternative plan if the one they initially had in mind wasn't going to be possible those who act on impulse find that if they have to think about it, the impulse has gone could be
      - amyjess 11y ago
        > limiting the sizes of paracetamol packets sold over the counter I hope people aren't trying to kill themselves with paracetamol! That's one of the nastiest ways to die. It takes about five days between OD and death, and it's exceedingly painful. Doctors can't do anything to save you, you're stuck explaining to your family that you're dying by your own hand, and you almost always change your mind during that time but it's too late. Did I mention the extreme pain? As far as ways to die go, paracetamol-induced liver failure is one of the most nightmarish. If people are choosing to kill themselves by ODing on heroin instead of on paracetamol, well, at least their death will be less excruciating.
    - kps 11y ago
      Interjection: It's not that stoves changed, it's that utilities switched from coal gas (high in carbon monoxide) to natural gas.
      - sp332 11y ago
        Oh, thanks! That makes more sense.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  > As to the effect, I now think it may be real in the sense that it prevents suicide on impulse. People who are suicidal all the time will probably find another place or method to do so, but people who just feel miserable and have suicidal impulses may be prevented from jumping. This wouldn't be a new finding. Several years ago, I read that putting railings on bridges dropped the overall suicide rate for similar reasons. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?pagewanted=1&ref=science http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?... As both the article and another commenter note, British suicide rates dropped as the most popular method of suicide (sticking your head in the oven) was made more difficult by the reduction of coal-gas ovens. Another interesting addendum is the impulsively suicidal generally choose the most effective methods (jumping off a bridge, shooting oneself, etc) while the most determinedly suicidal choose the least effective methods (overdosing, cutting, etc.) It's perversely the opposite of what you might expect.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    One question I have, that can be hard to ask without sounding insensitive, is if all suicide attempts are equal in their intent. Overdosing allows for far more options to be saved than a shotgun does; could the choice of one over the other be due to a subconscious or conscious desire to not actually die?
lucb1e 11y ago
TL;DR: Lots of suicide, though it's on the decline. "Suicide is a bigger threat to Tokyo's citizens than natural disasters and traffic fatalities combined." Research in 2013 "found that there was an 84 percent decrease in suicides at stations with the blue lights" but the reason is unknown.
platz 11y ago
Funny, they didn't know the blue lights would have that effect when installed initially (the initial reason seems to be aesthetic); it was only after they were in use for a while, that an analysis revealed the decrease in rate.
adnanh 11y ago
So why blue lights actually help?
- benrapscallion 11y ago
  The retina contains a blue light sensitive photo pigment called melanopsin, in specialized retinal ganglion cells. These melanopsin RGCs help integrate environmental light into multiple systems including those that control mood. Blue light this has beneficial effects in many neuropsychiatric disorders such as seasonal affective disorder.
  - cJ0th 11y ago
    Interesting .. my laptop's screen has a slight blue tint ;)
    - xyzzy4 11y ago
      Blue light can also strongly disrupt sleep cycles, so watch out.
      - mintplant 11y ago
        F.lux (proprietary) and Redshift (open source) can help with this, if you find computer use is giving you sleeping problems. F.lux: https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ Redshift: http://jonls.dk/redshift/ http://jonls.dk/redshift/
CaptainZapp 11y ago
Interesting, The four new Prague metro stations are equipped with a blue band at the edge of the platform, which starts to blink when a train approaches. I wonder if this is coincidental.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  Actually, this has been implemented already on the previous 3 stations on the red line (2008), and on the tram extension to Barrandov (2004). The band was originally supposed to have been red (as in "danger, train approaching, do not cross"), but was changed early in the process: red is already in use for train signalling and the designers have seen this as potentially confusing to train drivers (the lights tend to reflect into the tunnels somewhat, and "red light" in the underground signalling code means "EMERGENCY, STOP THE TRAIN BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE") - so they have chosen a color which is unused (green and orange/yellow are also assigned meanings for signalling - "clear to proceed" and "next block occupied"). Source: local transport grapevine. (On second thought, most Prague underground stations are lit with light that's closer to the "daylight" range than to "incadescent", but that might be an artifact of the lighting systems rather than a deliberate choice) TL;DR: Just a UX coincidence.
  - CaptainZapp 11y ago
    Thanks! It's comments like yours, which make HN interesting. Even if the upcoming questions are of rather idiosyncratic nature. I assume that the C line stations equipped with those bands are the ones up north (thanks for the addition). I have to admit that I never made it that far. As a side note. The general design of the Prague metro stations are pretty awesome (well, most of them anyway). The "bubble" design of the older A metro stations is almost iconic. Really a testament to Czech design in my view. Thanks again for the insight.
    - Piskvorrr 11y ago
      You're welcome. Yep, that's them; there's nothing to see in the desolate northern wastes anyway ;) Except perhaps the Strizkov "White Whale" metro station, a Schrödingerish case of good/bad design: you'll love and/or hate it. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26127084 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26127084
ck2 11y ago
When I hear a number like 84% drop I cannot cannot help but think of how in NYC cops are taught/encouraged to reduce crime statistics by reporting them differently. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-department-manipulates-crime-reports-study-finds.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-d... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-newyork-statistics-idUSBRE82818620120309 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-newyork-statistics-i... However it is kind of hard to fudge suicide reports I guess. Makes me sad to hear suicide is so high in Japan, especially with free/low-cost mental and physical health care. Has to be a cultural thing where it is accepted and then one person sees/reads about another doing it so it plants the idea in their head that it is okay.
- hindsightbias 11y ago
  Cowokers in NYC told me years back to never approach NYPD if mugged. "They'd rather make you a PI than hurt the mayor's stats."
RankingMember 11y ago
The title of this article seems to indicate the article will be all about the blue lights, but the article only dedicates one paragraph of eleven to describing them. This was an interesting article nonetheless.
geomark 11y ago
I didn't realize the suicide rate in Japan was so high. It's sad. Combine that with Japan's phenonmena of "moss viewing girls" [1] and "herbivore men" [2] and it really seems like the Japanese are destined for extinction. [1] http://ignition.co/398 http://ignition.co/398 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men
- Panoramix 11y ago
  I'm not sure where you were going with this comment, but the suicide rate in Japan is about 0.02% of their population/year. Quite large but absolutely irrelevant for population. Even for South Korea this is only approaching 0.03%
- Chris2048 11y ago
  I read an article one about murder in the sumo community in Japan. It suggested many murders were considered suicides by the police, and thus not investigated. This would keep the murder rate artificially low and the suicide rate artificially high. I also heard that due to the nature of elderly benefit receival in Japan, its status as having some of the longest living people might also be in doubt... Nothing substantial I can give you, but I'll just mention this :-)
  - geomark 11y ago
    You mention the elderly; can't find the link now but I read a very sad story about a man who cleans up houses in Japan after a person has died in them. Many suicides and many more elderly who just died alone out of neglect. Also, on the suicide rate, seems like Japan is a ways down the list at 9th place with a rate of 28.2 per 100,000 (for years 1985 - 2015) [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_other_sources_.281985.E2.80.932015.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
- deleted 11y ago
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- aninhumer 11y ago
ZenoArrow 11y ago
It's worth pointing out that there are issues in Japan with homicide cases being reported as suicides: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/media-national/japans-suicide-statistics-dont-tell-the-real-story/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/media-n...
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  That article says there's 45 potential known cases (since 98?). That... doesn't seem high? Even 45 a year is only an error rate of 0%. What's the error rate in other countries?
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    The important point is not about the known cases, but rather the way death is handled in the culture. For example: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 "Photos of the teenager's corpse show a deep cut on his right arm, horrific bruising on his neck and chest. His face is swollen and covered with cuts. A silhouette of violence runs from the corner of his left eye over the cheekbone to his jaw, and his legs are pocked with small burns the size of a lighted cigarette. But police in Japan's Aichi prefecture saw something else when they looked at the body of Takashi Saito, a 17-year-old sumo wrestler who arrived at a hospital in June. The cause of death was "heart disease," police declared. As is common in Japan, Aichi police reached their verdict on how Saito died without an autopsy. No need for a coroner, they said. No crime involved. Only 6.3% of the unnatural deaths in Aichi are investigated by a medical examiner, a minuscule rate even by nationwide standards in Japan, where an autopsy is performed in 11.2% of cases."
fiatjaf 11y ago
"A research paper published in the Journal of Affective Disorder in 2013 (four years after the first lights were installed) found that there was an 84 percent decrease in suicides at stations with the blue lights. The exact reason why the lights are effective isn’t known, but some researchers theorize that it’s related to the apparent positive effect of light on mood. A recent study led by Hiroshi Kadotani, from Shiga University of Medical Science found there was an “increased proportion of railway suicide attempts after several days without sunlight,” based on 971 suicides or attempted suicides in Tokyo between 2002 and 2006." So they don't know how blue lights do anything. The title of the article is totally misleading.
- chillingeffect 11y ago
  > So they don't know how Along with the shift in meaning of "literally," another major shift in language is occurring w/r/t to the use of "How." Often these days, you can substitute "How" with "That." For example, in this article, it's not about "How the lights helped people." It's more like "That the lights helped people." I'm not trying to say you're wrong or that I like this practice. All I'm saying is it's part of a bigger trend.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Along with the shift in meaning of "literally," another major shift in language is occurring w/r/t to the use of "How." > Often these days, you can substitute "How" with "That." Not really; the uses of "how" -- which aren't really substitutes for "that" -- that don't address a mechanism by which an effect is achieved but either the manner in which it manifests or the degree to which it manifests (the latter being essentially the same as phrase "how much", though the "much" is often left out) are both centuries old and in continuous, common use. The article is not about merely "That the lights reduce suicide" but "How [much] the lights reduce suicide". Which is a long-established, not novel, use of "How", despite being distinct from another potential meaning of "how", "By what mechanism did the lights reduce suicide."
- ggchappell 11y ago
  > So they don't know how blue lights do anything. It appears that they also don't know whether the blue lights prevent suicides, or merely relocate them to somewhere besides train stations. Regardless, reducing the number of suicides in train stations is not a bad goal ... > Part of the reason the city concentrates its efforts here is because such “human accidents” are costly and can disrupt tens of thousands of passengers for up to an hour, weekly or even daily. ... but it is not really a goal that is motivated by concern for the people who might kill themselves.
zkhalique 11y ago
Why did KMart chose blue light? http://www.kmart.com/en_us/dap/blue-light-specials.html http://www.kmart.com/en_us/dap/blue-light-specials.html
dmalvarado 11y ago
There was a TED talk about "changing one little thing". It was not specifically about suicide prevention, but a whole bunch of cases where all you had to do was change something small to bring about different behavior. Can anyone remind me what that was?
- trevyn 11y ago
  This sounds a bit like Charles Duhigg's "Power of Habit", but I don't recall him talking about suicide in that context.
- dmalvarado 11y ago
  Found it. It wasn't a TED talk, it was this: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/upshot/a-better-government-one-tweak-at-a-time.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/upshot/a-better-governm...
cubancigar11 11y ago
Japan has a severe depression problem among young male population due to all the social experimenting done by American institutions in the theory of eulogy and Malthusian economy. I will quote Wikipedia: "Seventy-one percent of suicides in Japan were male,[2] and it is the leading cause of death in men aged 20–44.[5][6]" Basically young males of working age. Japan has a severe problem of Hikikomoris who are almost always male. Unfortunately most Japanese men don't have any social way to express themselves, contrary to all the theories and movies about powerful patriarchy etc., and so are silently labeled by the academics instead of owning the identity as being MGTOW. And the government has confused suicide problem with suicide bombing apparently, and is all about prevention rather than cure.
- dang 11y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800928 and marked it off-topic.
  - lambda 11y ago
    Thanks!
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  What social experimenting are you referring to?
  - cubancigar11 11y ago
    The social experiments I am referring to originated because people worried about increasing population that became hard to control to people in power. The fear of Malthusian crisis originated from England and spread through every western educated person, which for non-western countries like Japan literally meant aristocratic nobles. This coupled with industrialization and militarization of Japanese society required use of female work force and so policies were put in place to take them out of the house and freedom to divorce/remarriage was given as carrot. Here is an article from 1930 discussing this same issue: "The old idea that the marriage of young people should be made by the gods with the assistance of their parents seems to be well-nigh completely discarded... While the young men's ideal of what their wives should be still seems to be a pretty woman with a classical face, backed with rich parents, the young women's fancies are more rational and more practical... 'as illustrated in most modern Japanese novels, which are generally brought about by the worthless character of parent-chosen husbands.' The young women seem to think that all the men who count at all are self made men." (NOTE: Nowadays women want men who think marriages are made in heaven while they enjoy full freedom to break it as they please with monetary incentives. :D) As "Mother's Educational Level Influences Birth Rate"[2], and since males are two times more likely to cause their own deaths after a divorce than females are[3], drop in population and increase in male suicide ratio can be very well be predicted, if anyone ever cared. Unfortunately men are generally more prone to suffer from hypertension and depression than women so that contributes even more in male death. [5] To be very very on-topic, "blue lights" might save more men in USA than Japan as per following study: "The gender ratio of suicide rates was higher in the United States (3.9) and Australia (3.3), where gender differences in suicide methods were more prominent, than in Korea (1.8) and Japan (2.7)."[4] Here gender ratio refers to people who are effected by gender differences in suicide methods. Further more, the lowest gender ratio in suicide in Japan was back in 1990[6], "when men accounted for “just” 61.6% of suicides." After that divorce rate skyrocketed.[7][8] This might look like a conspiracy theory to people who have never read a single thing about it, but to corraborate one of these links notices that while most divorces before WWII were initiated by men, it is now women who lead the numbers. And to people who use double quotes around men's rights and think it is some sort of American cult of misogynists - two things: 1. I don't pity you, but I will when one day you will need it. In my experience Feminist men get f*cked the most. 2. Here is a men's right organization in Japan working under the banner of conservatism to survive in a place which is under tremendous pressure from UN to reform alimony laws so more money is put in the hands of women. "Japan's 'Chauvinistic Husbands' save marriages"[9] I suppose I haven't actually talked about the experiments. In my defence, all the research leads to cause of female suicide and the book I was going to quote is lost in my emails (I had it scanned). I will update here when I find it. What I wanted to refer to was the systematic implementation of eugenics from "Oriental Studies department" of so many universities in Europe (Sweden practiced it as late as 1984 AFAIR, with 80% of victims of forced sterilization being female.), importation of western laws following one after the other fad, systematic discouragement of study on male condition etc. 1. Divorce in Japan - Yasu Iwasaki - American Journal of Sociology - Vol. 36, No. 3 (Nov., 1930), pp. 435-446 2. http://www.earth-policy.org/data_highlights/2011/highlights13 http://www.earth-policy.org/data_highlights/2011/highlights1... 3. "The different impacts of socio-economic factors on suicide between males and females". Obesity, Fitness & Wellness Week. 14 August 2010. 4. Gender ratio comparisons of the suicide rates and methods in Korea, Japan, Australia, and the United States. Hee Ahn M1, Park S, Ha K, Choi SH, Hong JP. 5. Sex differences in blood pressure levels and its association with obesity indices: who is at greater risk. Gupta S1, Kapoor S. 6. http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/01/17/2014-suicide-rates-in-japan-down-men-still-twice-that-of-women http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/01/17/2014-suicide-rates-in-... 7. http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat18/sub117/item616.html#chapter-1 http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat18/sub117/item616.html#c... 8. Divorce in Japan: Family, Gender, and the State, 1600-2000, Page 145. 9. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Japan-s-Chauvinistic-Husbands-save-marriages-3297375.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Japan-s-Chauvinistic-Husb... PS: I found a very good tool for while researching on this topic: http://databank.worldbank.org/data/reports.aspx?source=283 http://databank.worldbank.org/data/reports.aspx?source=283 There is some surprising (lack of) data there.
upofadown 11y ago
There is some evidence that exposing people to light from blue LEDs has some element of mad science. Non-blue light mixed with blue light has been shown to reduce the effect of the blue light. So exposing someone to just blue light can cause a very strong reaction, possibly larger than encountered in nature.
thekevan 11y ago
12 paragraphs on suicide in Japan and about 2.5 sentences on the lights. I'll save you the click: They don't really know why the blue lights reduce people's urge to commit suicide, they just do.
BillinghamJ 11y ago
Presumably the effect here is comparable with SAD - http://www.sad.org.uk http://www.sad.org.uk You can buy "SAD lamps" which emit a fairly bright cold color temperature light which in theory helps you generally feel better.
talles 11y ago
For anyone that was actually interest on the blue light effect: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-colored-light-prevent-suicide/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-co...
a3n 11y ago
> During rush hour, those 67 minutes may be spent on a train crowded with four times as many passengers as it’s designed to carry. This article gives me the impression that all they're really trying to do, realizing it or not, is make it possible for that anti-pattern, and all the anti-patterns surrounding it, to continue to exist. "Be strong, go to work!" Also, if you have to travel 67 minutes to and from work in a cattle car, and you're part of the "salary man" cohort with legendary working hours, how can you have any time at all to take advantage of the "free" mental health services mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I've been on software "death marches" of a few weeks or months. The stereotype that I see in my at a distance news reading from Japan looks like a lifelong death march. We are not "meant," or evolved, depending on your point of view, to work and stress all our waking hours. We are not meant to live in Tokyo and similar environments.
kevindeasis 11y ago
Do we all agree that it might be a good idea to change the color of lights in bridges, some parts of campus, and suicide spots?

102 points by bemmu 11y ago

Anecdotally I saw blue led lighting to prevent at a train station for a London Airport (I think Gatwick). The platform guard didn't seem to think it made any difference, and that it was bought at the end of a budget period.

Someone 11y ago

That 84% fall in number of suicides surprised me, so I googled around a bit. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-colored-light-prevent-suicide/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-co... gives some more reasonable account (part of the change may be that people do not commit suicide _there_) and references the paper in question (http://phys.org/news/2008-12-blue-streetlights-crime-suicide.html http://phys.org/news/2008-12-blue-streetlights-crime-suicide...) which is titled (emphasis added): "Blue streetlights may prevent crime, suicide". Unfortunately, I cannot find the text. As to the effect, I now think it may be real in the sense that it prevents suicide on impulse. People who are suicidal all the time will probably find another place or method to do so, but people who just feel miserable and have suicidal impulses may be prevented from jumping. And of course, that may change once people have grown up in cities that are illuminated sky-blue throughout the night.

DanBC 11y ago
Most suicide is impulsive, so preventing access to means and methods is a useful way to reduce numbers of suicide. As the population changes younger people find new methods, so it's not enough by itself.
- sp332 11y ago
  They don't always find new methods. For example when gas stoves became less common in Britain, the suicide rate went down and stayed down.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Yes, and similarly when car exhausts became cleaner. But if you look at other changes (eg limiting the sizes of paracetamol packets sold over the counter) we see a shift from paracetamol to opiates or tri-cyclics or anti-psychotics.
    - clort 11y ago
      that could be, that if want to kill yourself using tablets then you have to plan and go out and buy them in advance, whereas if you want to kill yourself using the gas oven then its simple to turn it on and put your head in. those who formulate a plan and carry it out are more likely to formulate an alternative plan if the one they initially had in mind wasn't going to be possible those who act on impulse find that if they have to think about it, the impulse has gone could be
    - amyjess 11y ago
      > limiting the sizes of paracetamol packets sold over the counter I hope people aren't trying to kill themselves with paracetamol! That's one of the nastiest ways to die. It takes about five days between OD and death, and it's exceedingly painful. Doctors can't do anything to save you, you're stuck explaining to your family that you're dying by your own hand, and you almost always change your mind during that time but it's too late. Did I mention the extreme pain? As far as ways to die go, paracetamol-induced liver failure is one of the most nightmarish. If people are choosing to kill themselves by ODing on heroin instead of on paracetamol, well, at least their death will be less excruciating.
  - kps 11y ago
    Interjection: It's not that stoves changed, it's that utilities switched from coal gas (high in carbon monoxide) to natural gas.
    - sp332 11y ago
      Oh, thanks! That makes more sense.
Amezarak 11y ago
> As to the effect, I now think it may be real in the sense that it prevents suicide on impulse. People who are suicidal all the time will probably find another place or method to do so, but people who just feel miserable and have suicidal impulses may be prevented from jumping. This wouldn't be a new finding. Several years ago, I read that putting railings on bridges dropped the overall suicide rate for similar reasons. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?pagewanted=1&ref=science http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?... As both the article and another commenter note, British suicide rates dropped as the most popular method of suicide (sticking your head in the oven) was made more difficult by the reduction of coal-gas ovens. Another interesting addendum is the impulsively suicidal generally choose the most effective methods (jumping off a bridge, shooting oneself, etc) while the most determinedly suicidal choose the least effective methods (overdosing, cutting, etc.) It's perversely the opposite of what you might expect.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  One question I have, that can be hard to ask without sounding insensitive, is if all suicide attempts are equal in their intent. Overdosing allows for far more options to be saved than a shotgun does; could the choice of one over the other be due to a subconscious or conscious desire to not actually die?

lucb1e 11y ago

TL;DR: Lots of suicide, though it's on the decline. "Suicide is a bigger threat to Tokyo's citizens than natural disasters and traffic fatalities combined." Research in 2013 "found that there was an 84 percent decrease in suicides at stations with the blue lights" but the reason is unknown.

platz 11y ago

Funny, they didn't know the blue lights would have that effect when installed initially (the initial reason seems to be aesthetic); it was only after they were in use for a while, that an analysis revealed the decrease in rate.

adnanh 11y ago

So why blue lights actually help?

benrapscallion 11y ago
The retina contains a blue light sensitive photo pigment called melanopsin, in specialized retinal ganglion cells. These melanopsin RGCs help integrate environmental light into multiple systems including those that control mood. Blue light this has beneficial effects in many neuropsychiatric disorders such as seasonal affective disorder.
- cJ0th 11y ago
  Interesting .. my laptop's screen has a slight blue tint ;)
  - xyzzy4 11y ago
    Blue light can also strongly disrupt sleep cycles, so watch out.
    - mintplant 11y ago
      F.lux (proprietary) and Redshift (open source) can help with this, if you find computer use is giving you sleeping problems. F.lux: https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ Redshift: http://jonls.dk/redshift/ http://jonls.dk/redshift/

CaptainZapp 11y ago

Interesting, The four new Prague metro stations are equipped with a blue band at the edge of the platform, which starts to blink when a train approaches. I wonder if this is coincidental.

Piskvorrr 11y ago
Actually, this has been implemented already on the previous 3 stations on the red line (2008), and on the tram extension to Barrandov (2004). The band was originally supposed to have been red (as in "danger, train approaching, do not cross"), but was changed early in the process: red is already in use for train signalling and the designers have seen this as potentially confusing to train drivers (the lights tend to reflect into the tunnels somewhat, and "red light" in the underground signalling code means "EMERGENCY, STOP THE TRAIN BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE") - so they have chosen a color which is unused (green and orange/yellow are also assigned meanings for signalling - "clear to proceed" and "next block occupied"). Source: local transport grapevine. (On second thought, most Prague underground stations are lit with light that's closer to the "daylight" range than to "incadescent", but that might be an artifact of the lighting systems rather than a deliberate choice) TL;DR: Just a UX coincidence.
- CaptainZapp 11y ago
  Thanks! It's comments like yours, which make HN interesting. Even if the upcoming questions are of rather idiosyncratic nature. I assume that the C line stations equipped with those bands are the ones up north (thanks for the addition). I have to admit that I never made it that far. As a side note. The general design of the Prague metro stations are pretty awesome (well, most of them anyway). The "bubble" design of the older A metro stations is almost iconic. Really a testament to Czech design in my view. Thanks again for the insight.
  - Piskvorrr 11y ago
    You're welcome. Yep, that's them; there's nothing to see in the desolate northern wastes anyway ;) Except perhaps the Strizkov "White Whale" metro station, a Schrödingerish case of good/bad design: you'll love and/or hate it. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26127084 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26127084

ck2 11y ago

When I hear a number like 84% drop I cannot cannot help but think of how in NYC cops are taught/encouraged to reduce crime statistics by reporting them differently. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-department-manipulates-crime-reports-study-finds.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-d... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-newyork-statistics-idUSBRE82818620120309 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-newyork-statistics-i... However it is kind of hard to fudge suicide reports I guess. Makes me sad to hear suicide is so high in Japan, especially with free/low-cost mental and physical health care. Has to be a cultural thing where it is accepted and then one person sees/reads about another doing it so it plants the idea in their head that it is okay.

hindsightbias 11y ago
Cowokers in NYC told me years back to never approach NYPD if mugged. "They'd rather make you a PI than hurt the mayor's stats."

RankingMember 11y ago

The title of this article seems to indicate the article will be all about the blue lights, but the article only dedicates one paragraph of eleven to describing them. This was an interesting article nonetheless.

geomark 11y ago

I didn't realize the suicide rate in Japan was so high. It's sad. Combine that with Japan's phenonmena of "moss viewing girls" [1] and "herbivore men" [2] and it really seems like the Japanese are destined for extinction. [1] http://ignition.co/398 http://ignition.co/398 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

Panoramix 11y ago
I'm not sure where you were going with this comment, but the suicide rate in Japan is about 0.02% of their population/year. Quite large but absolutely irrelevant for population. Even for South Korea this is only approaching 0.03%
Chris2048 11y ago
I read an article one about murder in the sumo community in Japan. It suggested many murders were considered suicides by the police, and thus not investigated. This would keep the murder rate artificially low and the suicide rate artificially high. I also heard that due to the nature of elderly benefit receival in Japan, its status as having some of the longest living people might also be in doubt... Nothing substantial I can give you, but I'll just mention this :-)
- geomark 11y ago
  You mention the elderly; can't find the link now but I read a very sad story about a man who cleans up houses in Japan after a person has died in them. Many suicides and many more elderly who just died alone out of neglect. Also, on the suicide rate, seems like Japan is a ways down the list at 9th place with a rate of 28.2 per 100,000 (for years 1985 - 2015) [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_other_sources_.281985.E2.80.932015.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
deleted 11y ago
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aninhumer 11y ago

ZenoArrow 11y ago

It's worth pointing out that there are issues in Japan with homicide cases being reported as suicides: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/media-national/japans-suicide-statistics-dont-tell-the-real-story/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/media-n...

MichaelGG 11y ago
That article says there's 45 potential known cases (since 98?). That... doesn't seem high? Even 45 a year is only an error rate of 0%. What's the error rate in other countries?
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  The important point is not about the known cases, but rather the way death is handled in the culture. For example: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 "Photos of the teenager's corpse show a deep cut on his right arm, horrific bruising on his neck and chest. His face is swollen and covered with cuts. A silhouette of violence runs from the corner of his left eye over the cheekbone to his jaw, and his legs are pocked with small burns the size of a lighted cigarette. But police in Japan's Aichi prefecture saw something else when they looked at the body of Takashi Saito, a 17-year-old sumo wrestler who arrived at a hospital in June. The cause of death was "heart disease," police declared. As is common in Japan, Aichi police reached their verdict on how Saito died without an autopsy. No need for a coroner, they said. No crime involved. Only 6.3% of the unnatural deaths in Aichi are investigated by a medical examiner, a minuscule rate even by nationwide standards in Japan, where an autopsy is performed in 11.2% of cases."

fiatjaf 11y ago

"A research paper published in the Journal of Affective Disorder in 2013 (four years after the first lights were installed) found that there was an 84 percent decrease in suicides at stations with the blue lights. The exact reason why the lights are effective isn’t known, but some researchers theorize that it’s related to the apparent positive effect of light on mood. A recent study led by Hiroshi Kadotani, from Shiga University of Medical Science found there was an “increased proportion of railway suicide attempts after several days without sunlight,” based on 971 suicides or attempted suicides in Tokyo between 2002 and 2006." So they don't know how blue lights do anything. The title of the article is totally misleading.

chillingeffect 11y ago
> So they don't know how Along with the shift in meaning of "literally," another major shift in language is occurring w/r/t to the use of "How." Often these days, you can substitute "How" with "That." For example, in this article, it's not about "How the lights helped people." It's more like "That the lights helped people." I'm not trying to say you're wrong or that I like this practice. All I'm saying is it's part of a bigger trend.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Along with the shift in meaning of "literally," another major shift in language is occurring w/r/t to the use of "How." > Often these days, you can substitute "How" with "That." Not really; the uses of "how" -- which aren't really substitutes for "that" -- that don't address a mechanism by which an effect is achieved but either the manner in which it manifests or the degree to which it manifests (the latter being essentially the same as phrase "how much", though the "much" is often left out) are both centuries old and in continuous, common use. The article is not about merely "That the lights reduce suicide" but "How [much] the lights reduce suicide". Which is a long-established, not novel, use of "How", despite being distinct from another potential meaning of "how", "By what mechanism did the lights reduce suicide."
ggchappell 11y ago
> So they don't know how blue lights do anything. It appears that they also don't know whether the blue lights prevent suicides, or merely relocate them to somewhere besides train stations. Regardless, reducing the number of suicides in train stations is not a bad goal ... > Part of the reason the city concentrates its efforts here is because such “human accidents” are costly and can disrupt tens of thousands of passengers for up to an hour, weekly or even daily. ... but it is not really a goal that is motivated by concern for the people who might kill themselves.

zkhalique 11y ago

Why did KMart chose blue light? http://www.kmart.com/en_us/dap/blue-light-specials.html http://www.kmart.com/en_us/dap/blue-light-specials.html

dmalvarado 11y ago

There was a TED talk about "changing one little thing". It was not specifically about suicide prevention, but a whole bunch of cases where all you had to do was change something small to bring about different behavior. Can anyone remind me what that was?

trevyn 11y ago
This sounds a bit like Charles Duhigg's "Power of Habit", but I don't recall him talking about suicide in that context.
dmalvarado 11y ago
Found it. It wasn't a TED talk, it was this: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/upshot/a-better-government-one-tweak-at-a-time.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/upshot/a-better-governm...

cubancigar11 11y ago

Japan has a severe depression problem among young male population due to all the social experimenting done by American institutions in the theory of eulogy and Malthusian economy. I will quote Wikipedia: "Seventy-one percent of suicides in Japan were male,[2] and it is the leading cause of death in men aged 20–44.[5][6]" Basically young males of working age. Japan has a severe problem of Hikikomoris who are almost always male. Unfortunately most Japanese men don't have any social way to express themselves, contrary to all the theories and movies about powerful patriarchy etc., and so are silently labeled by the academics instead of owning the identity as being MGTOW. And the government has confused suicide problem with suicide bombing apparently, and is all about prevention rather than cure.

dang 11y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800928 and marked it off-topic.
- lambda 11y ago
  Thanks!
Jtsummers 11y ago
What social experimenting are you referring to?
- cubancigar11 11y ago
  The social experiments I am referring to originated because people worried about increasing population that became hard to control to people in power. The fear of Malthusian crisis originated from England and spread through every western educated person, which for non-western countries like Japan literally meant aristocratic nobles. This coupled with industrialization and militarization of Japanese society required use of female work force and so policies were put in place to take them out of the house and freedom to divorce/remarriage was given as carrot. Here is an article from 1930 discussing this same issue: "The old idea that the marriage of young people should be made by the gods with the assistance of their parents seems to be well-nigh completely discarded... While the young men's ideal of what their wives should be still seems to be a pretty woman with a classical face, backed with rich parents, the young women's fancies are more rational and more practical... 'as illustrated in most modern Japanese novels, which are generally brought about by the worthless character of parent-chosen husbands.' The young women seem to think that all the men who count at all are self made men." (NOTE: Nowadays women want men who think marriages are made in heaven while they enjoy full freedom to break it as they please with monetary incentives. :D) As "Mother's Educational Level Influences Birth Rate"[2], and since males are two times more likely to cause their own deaths after a divorce than females are[3], drop in population and increase in male suicide ratio can be very well be predicted, if anyone ever cared. Unfortunately men are generally more prone to suffer from hypertension and depression than women so that contributes even more in male death. [5] To be very very on-topic, "blue lights" might save more men in USA than Japan as per following study: "The gender ratio of suicide rates was higher in the United States (3.9) and Australia (3.3), where gender differences in suicide methods were more prominent, than in Korea (1.8) and Japan (2.7)."[4] Here gender ratio refers to people who are effected by gender differences in suicide methods. Further more, the lowest gender ratio in suicide in Japan was back in 1990[6], "when men accounted for “just” 61.6% of suicides." After that divorce rate skyrocketed.[7][8] This might look like a conspiracy theory to people who have never read a single thing about it, but to corraborate one of these links notices that while most divorces before WWII were initiated by men, it is now women who lead the numbers. And to people who use double quotes around men's rights and think it is some sort of American cult of misogynists - two things: 1. I don't pity you, but I will when one day you will need it. In my experience Feminist men get f*cked the most. 2. Here is a men's right organization in Japan working under the banner of conservatism to survive in a place which is under tremendous pressure from UN to reform alimony laws so more money is put in the hands of women. "Japan's 'Chauvinistic Husbands' save marriages"[9] I suppose I haven't actually talked about the experiments. In my defence, all the research leads to cause of female suicide and the book I was going to quote is lost in my emails (I had it scanned). I will update here when I find it. What I wanted to refer to was the systematic implementation of eugenics from "Oriental Studies department" of so many universities in Europe (Sweden practiced it as late as 1984 AFAIR, with 80% of victims of forced sterilization being female.), importation of western laws following one after the other fad, systematic discouragement of study on male condition etc. 1. Divorce in Japan - Yasu Iwasaki - American Journal of Sociology - Vol. 36, No. 3 (Nov., 1930), pp. 435-446 2. http://www.earth-policy.org/data_highlights/2011/highlights13 http://www.earth-policy.org/data_highlights/2011/highlights1... 3. "The different impacts of socio-economic factors on suicide between males and females". Obesity, Fitness & Wellness Week. 14 August 2010. 4. Gender ratio comparisons of the suicide rates and methods in Korea, Japan, Australia, and the United States. Hee Ahn M1, Park S, Ha K, Choi SH, Hong JP. 5. Sex differences in blood pressure levels and its association with obesity indices: who is at greater risk. Gupta S1, Kapoor S. 6. http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/01/17/2014-suicide-rates-in-japan-down-men-still-twice-that-of-women http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/01/17/2014-suicide-rates-in-... 7. http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat18/sub117/item616.html#chapter-1 http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat18/sub117/item616.html#c... 8. Divorce in Japan: Family, Gender, and the State, 1600-2000, Page 145. 9. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Japan-s-Chauvinistic-Husbands-save-marriages-3297375.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Japan-s-Chauvinistic-Husb... PS: I found a very good tool for while researching on this topic: http://databank.worldbank.org/data/reports.aspx?source=283 http://databank.worldbank.org/data/reports.aspx?source=283 There is some surprising (lack of) data there.

upofadown 11y ago

There is some evidence that exposing people to light from blue LEDs has some element of mad science. Non-blue light mixed with blue light has been shown to reduce the effect of the blue light. So exposing someone to just blue light can cause a very strong reaction, possibly larger than encountered in nature.

thekevan 11y ago

12 paragraphs on suicide in Japan and about 2.5 sentences on the lights. I'll save you the click: They don't really know why the blue lights reduce people's urge to commit suicide, they just do.

BillinghamJ 11y ago

Presumably the effect here is comparable with SAD - http://www.sad.org.uk http://www.sad.org.uk You can buy "SAD lamps" which emit a fairly bright cold color temperature light which in theory helps you generally feel better.

talles 11y ago

For anyone that was actually interest on the blue light effect: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-colored-light-prevent-suicide/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/12/13/can-blue-co...

a3n 11y ago

> During rush hour, those 67 minutes may be spent on a train crowded with four times as many passengers as it’s designed to carry. This article gives me the impression that all they're really trying to do, realizing it or not, is make it possible for that anti-pattern, and all the anti-patterns surrounding it, to continue to exist. "Be strong, go to work!" Also, if you have to travel 67 minutes to and from work in a cattle car, and you're part of the "salary man" cohort with legendary working hours, how can you have any time at all to take advantage of the "free" mental health services mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I've been on software "death marches" of a few weeks or months. The stereotype that I see in my at a distance news reading from Japan looks like a lifelong death march. We are not "meant," or evolved, depending on your point of view, to work and stress all our waking hours. We are not meant to live in Tokyo and similar environments.

kevindeasis 11y ago

Do we all agree that it might be a good idea to change the color of lights in bridges, some parts of campus, and suicide spots?