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In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears
- Numberwang 11y agoThis seems to pop up in different forms on HN every now and then and then the same arguments all take place in the comments so allow me to start. As a Swede I would not want to have it any other way, and any time I'm abroad I miss the simplicity. There are privacy issues and cost issues sure, but this is a general problem in lots of ways for most nations.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- maaku 11y agoDo you trust your government?
- willvarfar 11y agoI think all swedes do. I don't know any who don't trust them in the sense I think you mean. Sure there are many who think politicians ineffective or don't agree with their views, but even petty corruption is unthinkable.
- yourapostasy 11y agoWe should teach children to ask from an early age: "Do you trust unsupervised human nature in others to always act beneficially towards your interests?" Sadly, primary and even secondary schools no longer commonly read the old classical works to cast a jaundiced eye towards unchecked human nature, to drive home the point to children that regardless of the era, form of government, technology, etc., unchecked human nature is never to be trusted for the foreseeable future (backed by copious data points over the entirety of recorded human history).
- scrollaway 11y agoThe question is not "Do you trust your government?", it's "Do you trust your next government?"
- boznz 11y ago+1
- Numberwang 11y agoI very much trust the Swedish government based on past decisions, and a general knowledge of the Swedish character (that goes beyond cultural ebbs and flows). Also, trust is easier in a small country with a good track record. And I trust my fellow Swedes to keep electing trustworthy governments in the future.
- biafra 11y agoI think anonymous payment via cash money should be a human right. In Germany, AFAIK every merchant has to accept cash. And I prefer it that way. Sure, it is fine if every merchant also accepts any cards, or BItcoin, or whatever. But cash is important.
- collyw 11y agoI can understand that from most people, buts to me its a bit like the "if you have nothing to hide argument" - it woks for the majority, but there are way too many edge cases to consider. Say for example you wanted to buy some weed - something that a reasonable proportion of normal and reasonable people do - but for political reasons is illegal. Do you really need that being trackable?
- jamesblonde 11y agoHere in Sweden most people don't carry any cash and would buy a stick of gum with their card. If you want to give someone money, you "swish" it to them. Swish is a massive smartphone app for people to people payments supported by all banks.
- Scoundreller 11y agoIs there any fee/commission for Swish? If there is not, was that a voluntary choice by the banks, or a regulator's requirement?
- fnordsensei 11y agoThey're supposed to charge 1kr per transaction, flat fee, but they've been putting it off. They're probably getting people used to the service before starting to charge for it. Taking a note out of the drug dealer's book I suppose.
- fredyr 11y agoWhen the Swish service launched (2012) it was only consumer-to-consumer and no fees. Last year they added businesses and charge similarly to credit cards, fee on the creditor side.
- seivan 11y agoNot as of now. But as Fnord mentioned, they might be charging 1 kr in the future which is fine. If I were to guess how it works it would be like: The receiver of a swish actually gets the money from their own bank while the sender actually just sends money this their own bank as well. Then the senders bank will set a IOU to the receivers bank to balance things out and that will get fixed in a couple of days (the whole bank day transfers)
- ersii 11y agoFor person to person / peer to peer - it's currently free. For person to business/organization it will cost the business 2.5 SEK per transaction as well as a monthly fee and/or an activation fee. Prices may vary depending on at which bank the business/organisation opens an account and activates Swish to.
- mschuster91 11y agoYeah, and allow government, secret services, police and the NSA to track your entire life. Fuck that, I'm sticking with cash.
- fauigerzigerk 11y agoThat seems like a solvable problem though. For instance, prepaid cards or apps based on a similar principle should fix this.
- dude01 11y agoOk, but how do you buy the prepaid card? Through a track able electronic purchase I'd guess.
- fauigerzigerk 11y agoThe purchase of the prepaid card can be tracked just as getting cash from a cash machine can be tracked. But that's where the track ends. If the prepaid card is anonymous, it can be passed on to someone else as payment for instance. Whether we have anonymous electronic payments is not a technology issue. It's a political question. The danger is that governments could use the demise of cash to ban anonymous payments altogether. I'm just saying that the loss of anonymity is not an automatic consequence of electronic payments.
- mschuster91 11y agoBy KYC laws prepaid CCs have to be registered with your name and address.
- ersii 11y agoWhat jurisdiction are you talking about? There are prepaid Internet enabled Visa/Mastercards available at 7-Eleven/Pressbyrån in Sweden from the supplier "Spendon" (www.spendon.se). No questions asked when purchasing them. It's sold as a "gift card" though.
- PeterisP 11y agoI don't know how it's for native swedes, but last couple times I was visiting there (and that was a few years ago) I didn't even bother to exchange currency or have any swedish kronor in my wallet. You just can do everything without cash.
- nissehulth 11y agoI live in Stockholm, Sweden, I don't think I've had cash in my wallet at any point this year. Parking? Paid with an app (that charge my credit card). Paying a friend or my kids for something? Done via the Swift app (instant bank to bank account transfer). Buying veggies at the outdoor market? That guy will accept credit cards via a regular terminal or a phone with something like iZettle. Or perhaps even accept a Swift transfer to his phone. Regular shopping, credit cards. At the corner tobacconist you may find an old and slow dialup-based terminal, but they are rare. Most terminals are online and operate at decent speed. I'm sure there are cash-only businesses, but I'm not in the market for illegal drugs or no-receipt-handymans. :)
- scrollaway 11y agoYou don't have to buy drugs to find cash-only businesses in Stockholm. Maids are cash only and so are some removal companies.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- rayherrick 11y agoBiggest benefit of cash-free economy not mentioned in the article: escape from the Zero Bound in conducting monetary policy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_lower_bound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_lower_bound). It can't be that central bankers in Sweden aren't realizing this; Sweden's central bankers have always been a notch above performance-wise.
- zerstroyer 11y agoKinda sad that the only way we will ever solve this problem seems to be by pure accident.
- barney54 11y agoBut this also assumes that the zero bound is a problem for monetary policy. Personally, I believe it is a feature not a bug to have a zero lower bound.
- Aleman360 11y agoBig downside: authorities can lock you out of the financial system.
- JDiculous 11y agoMeanwhile in NYC, paying by anything other than cash generally requires a $10-15 minimum. I find it incredibly inefficient and am sick of having to hold cash and constantly go to ATMs. I understand that the reason these card minimums are in place is because the card companies charge a non-trivial amount that wipes out the store's margins at low prices. How can we solve this?
- maaku 11y agoBitcoin?
- gravypod 11y agoThe problem with bitcoin is very similar to credit. It is extremely difficult for a small business to liquidate. There is also the added problem of protection. With credit and banking, you are ensured and regulated. Without, you are left to your own ability. But those aren't the biggest problems. The problem is how do you pay taxes with bitcoin? Their market value at acquisition? Does the market fluctuation between collections and taxes count as interest/losses? Do you have to pay taxes on money lost for changing bitcoin to local currency? These are all very large problems for a business owner.
- biafra 11y agoYou could accept Bitcoin via Bitpay (or any other payment processor supporting immediate conversion to fiat) and receive fiat currency. The good thing is: No chargeback possible.
- gravypod 11y agoThat is a very bad thing for consumers. I'm assuming BitPay skims some cream from the top, so you would still have the same problem of cards.
- aaronharnly 11y agoI find that true in grocery stores and bodegas, but less so in coffeeshops or food trucks -- perhaps places that value capturing loyalty and repeat customers over the margin of an individual transaction.
- willvarfar 11y agothe article isn't exaggerating; I take out two hundred kronor (not from an atm, but from the cashier at a supermarket when I pay for my groceries) and then it sits in my wallet 'just in case' for months. I carry a 10 Kr coin too, in case I need to use an old public toilet or borrow a shopping trolley. Swish is really taking off too. Even market stalls take Swish. The part of the story that shows its Americanism though is the intro - churches in Sweden are basically empty :)
- bitserf 11y agoIt's similar in New Zealand...The last time I had cash in my wallet was when I visited Japan a year or so ago. Basically if you don't have an EFTPOS terminal as a retailer you may as well not exist. Even temporary food stalls at festivals usually have a mobile connected terminal.
- z3t4 11y agoImagine if you could get a percentage every time money change hands!
- c_lebesgue 11y agoWelcome to a new era, one where negative interest rates have no lower bound.
- gustavcedersjo 11y agoFor a couple of years, there was a company in Lund, Sweden that offered biometric payments. It was very convenient. Unfortunately, they quit, partly because of high transaction costs of the banks.
- scrollaway 11y agoI lived in Sweden (Stockholm) for a year. Here's what bothered me about the idea of "cash-free": 1. Cards are controlled by businesses that do not have the customers' interests at heart. What's more, it is not easy to become a card payment provider. 2. Current government may be trustable, but nobody knows what happens with the next one. The government has various forms of power over card payments which they don't have with cash. They can trace it, they can block it, they can know every aspects of your life. And it's not just your government, it's other nations' as well in some cases. So putting all your money in one basket here is putting all your purchasing power and all your privacy in the hands of businesses that cannot be competed with and institutions that are easily corrupted. Electronic payments are the future, there's no working around that. But are we going to find solutions to the privacy issues in time?