7 ms·

Putting meditation to the test (2011)

39 points by innovate 11y ago

papapra 11y ago
I'm curious if these scientists try to make the connection between the flow and the focused attention meditation. It seems to me that by trying to meditate, you are actually trying to get to the state of flow.
- Tharkun 11y ago
  I don't think so. Flow makes you blind to everything that is arround you. It's pretty much hyper-focused tunnel vision. "Mindfulness" meditation, on the other hand, gives you a very wide awareness. Of yourself and of your environment. Not just on the task at hand. At least that's how I see it.
  - amelius 11y ago
    Yes, I think mindfulness is the opposite of flow. Because otherwise, why would I need meditation after a full day of work (flow)?
  - epalmer 11y ago
    How is meditation like or different than flow? This is an interesting question. I see it as a paradox. When I meditate in the early phases there is wide awareness but when I quiet the mind, for me, there is no awareness and time disappears. Some days I can quiet the mind quickly and go into what you might describe as a trance. But in that trance I can hear / sense what is around me if I chose to. I don't think the quiet mind phase is flow however. It is just that time disappears. Meditation makes me peaceful and can provide me with more energy reserves for the rest of the day. Flow makes me satisfied but usually tired and at the same time wanting more flow. So how do you HN participants see these different states?
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Meditation is not a unitary practice. There are important forms of meditation that involve extreme concentration on a single object, inducing unimaginably strong "tunnel vision." For an obvious example, consider the kasina practice of old-school Theravada Buddhism. http://web.archive.org/web/20031230220324/http://www.birken.ca/texts/Kasina_final.html http://web.archive.org/web/20031230220324/http://www.birken.... Breath concentration is done in a similar way, but with the sensation of the breath as the object of fixation rather than a colored disc.
  - j45 11y ago
    There's many types of focus and meditation. Meditation is like swimming. People can study, discuss, and pontificate about swimming, it's all academic until we're in the water sloshing around ourselves. In the case of mindfulness that is triggering some dismissiveness on your part, there is also abstract, settled, or awareness typed meditation. The latter, focusing on abstract, awareness of awareness (being a witness to your thoughts) without directing them can be just as useful to unlock creativity in day to day life. Some meditative experiences are very similar to flow and allows the ability to slip into flow that much easier. Some folks can slip into meditation just sitting at their desk by closing their eyes and come out a few minutes later settled and focus in hand for something.
- nabla9 11y ago
  There are two dimensions in meditation. 1. Samadhi/samatha or single pointed focus that calms or concentrates the mind. 2. vipashana/mindfullness/awareness that is looking inside the functioning mind and gains insight. These two are not completely orthogonal. Even those who do pure awareness meditation develop the ability to keep their mind focused in this moment. In many traditions practitioners start with concentrative practice until they gain the so called 'access concentration' where they have the ability to stay in present moment without mind wandering too much. This access concentration is what I would call 'the flow'. You can go much deeper in concentration or use the flow to look into your mind. The flow itself is not the task. It's the first step. In many/most Buddhist meditation traditions dedicated concentration practices are seen as tools and insight meditation seen as being more directly towards the goal of Buddhist meditation. In Mahayana tradition developing deep concentration states is called Sharpening Manjusri’s sword. Using the sword is different than sharpening it.
Laaw 11y ago
Have these studies been reproduced elsewhere, or is it a singular group of researchers extolling the virtues of meditation?
- nunodonato 11y ago
  as a 10+ yr practitioner, studies are useless. practice it and test it by yourself, no harm done and a lot to gain ;)
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    This is how pseudoscience takes root. You are the easiest person for you to fool.
    - erokar 11y ago
      Yes, God forbid you fool yourself into feeling good and relaxed.
      - eternauta3k 11y ago
        Placeboing myself into emotional control and improved attention sounds like a good deal.
        DanBC 11y ago
        but you don't know if you're actually getting emotional control or improved attention.
      - cbd1984 11y ago
        No, God forbid I forgo some better therapy.
    - fit2rule 11y ago
      Its also how science fails to take root: by discouraging people from trying things, just because it hasn't been rubber-stamped by the authorities yet ..
zuck9 11y ago
Meditation is not pseudoscience, this topic has been brought up multiple times in HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=meditation https://hn.algolia.com/?q=meditation https://hn.algolia.com/?q=mindfulness https://hn.algolia.com/?q=mindfulness If you read the HN threads you will find countless people talking about how meditation has helped them from their personal experiences. Meditation has a lot of benefits and the results have been scientifically validated by different groups of researchers: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000578940700072X http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005789407... http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00845519 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00845519 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to... A recent research even showed that meditation is more powerful than a placebo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10789738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10789738 If you are still skeptical, watch this video by Dan Harris, a skeptical news reporter turned meditation evangelist, it convinced me to meditate everyday and I think it'll convince you too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAcTIrA2Qhk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAcTIrA2Qhk
nichochar 11y ago
Although I'm a fan of meditation, and actually do think it increases focus, I think the experiment they conducted is not very scientific: >Headed by Katherine MacLean at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, the study measured the volunteers’ attention skills by showing them a succession of vertical lines flashed up on a computer screen. They then had to indicate, by clicking a mouse, whenever there was a line shorter than the rest. As the retreat progressed, MacLean and her colleagues noted that the volunteers became progressively more accurate and found it increasingly easy to stay focused on the task for long periods. I feel like I could also get better at it just by practicing... At least I think they should have benchmarked the experiment by comparing to people not meditating 5 hours a day, this is just inductive reasoning to me. This being said, I love meditating and have found it to bring lots of good benefits to me. I find that focus can be trained in better ways, but meditation is great at making me enjoy the present moment, and take my time more.
- maroonblazer 11y ago
  >I find that focus can be trained in better ways Such as?
imoff 11y ago
Can meditation be used to cure premature ejaculation?
- zafka 11y ago
  assuming you are serious, see tantric meditation
  - imoff 11y ago
    I'm serious, thanks.

39 points by innovate 11y ago

I'm curious if these scientists try to make the connection between the flow and the focused attention meditation. It seems to me that by trying to meditate, you are actually trying to get to the state of flow.

Tharkun 11y ago
I don't think so. Flow makes you blind to everything that is arround you. It's pretty much hyper-focused tunnel vision. "Mindfulness" meditation, on the other hand, gives you a very wide awareness. Of yourself and of your environment. Not just on the task at hand. At least that's how I see it.
- amelius 11y ago
  Yes, I think mindfulness is the opposite of flow. Because otherwise, why would I need meditation after a full day of work (flow)?
- epalmer 11y ago
  How is meditation like or different than flow? This is an interesting question. I see it as a paradox. When I meditate in the early phases there is wide awareness but when I quiet the mind, for me, there is no awareness and time disappears. Some days I can quiet the mind quickly and go into what you might describe as a trance. But in that trance I can hear / sense what is around me if I chose to. I don't think the quiet mind phase is flow however. It is just that time disappears. Meditation makes me peaceful and can provide me with more energy reserves for the rest of the day. Flow makes me satisfied but usually tired and at the same time wanting more flow. So how do you HN participants see these different states?
- mbrock 11y ago
  Meditation is not a unitary practice. There are important forms of meditation that involve extreme concentration on a single object, inducing unimaginably strong "tunnel vision." For an obvious example, consider the kasina practice of old-school Theravada Buddhism. http://web.archive.org/web/20031230220324/http://www.birken.ca/texts/Kasina_final.html http://web.archive.org/web/20031230220324/http://www.birken.... Breath concentration is done in a similar way, but with the sensation of the breath as the object of fixation rather than a colored disc.
- j45 11y ago
  There's many types of focus and meditation. Meditation is like swimming. People can study, discuss, and pontificate about swimming, it's all academic until we're in the water sloshing around ourselves. In the case of mindfulness that is triggering some dismissiveness on your part, there is also abstract, settled, or awareness typed meditation. The latter, focusing on abstract, awareness of awareness (being a witness to your thoughts) without directing them can be just as useful to unlock creativity in day to day life. Some meditative experiences are very similar to flow and allows the ability to slip into flow that much easier. Some folks can slip into meditation just sitting at their desk by closing their eyes and come out a few minutes later settled and focus in hand for something.
nabla9 11y ago
There are two dimensions in meditation. 1. Samadhi/samatha or single pointed focus that calms or concentrates the mind. 2. vipashana/mindfullness/awareness that is looking inside the functioning mind and gains insight. These two are not completely orthogonal. Even those who do pure awareness meditation develop the ability to keep their mind focused in this moment. In many traditions practitioners start with concentrative practice until they gain the so called 'access concentration' where they have the ability to stay in present moment without mind wandering too much. This access concentration is what I would call 'the flow'. You can go much deeper in concentration or use the flow to look into your mind. The flow itself is not the task. It's the first step. In many/most Buddhist meditation traditions dedicated concentration practices are seen as tools and insight meditation seen as being more directly towards the goal of Buddhist meditation. In Mahayana tradition developing deep concentration states is called Sharpening Manjusri’s sword. Using the sword is different than sharpening it.

Laaw 11y ago

Have these studies been reproduced elsewhere, or is it a singular group of researchers extolling the virtues of meditation?

nunodonato 11y ago
as a 10+ yr practitioner, studies are useless. practice it and test it by yourself, no harm done and a lot to gain ;)
- cbd1984 11y ago
  This is how pseudoscience takes root. You are the easiest person for you to fool.
  - erokar 11y ago
    Yes, God forbid you fool yourself into feeling good and relaxed.
    - eternauta3k 11y ago
      Placeboing myself into emotional control and improved attention sounds like a good deal.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        but you don't know if you're actually getting emotional control or improved attention.
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      No, God forbid I forgo some better therapy.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    Its also how science fails to take root: by discouraging people from trying things, just because it hasn't been rubber-stamped by the authorities yet ..

zuck9 11y ago

Meditation is not pseudoscience, this topic has been brought up multiple times in HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=meditation https://hn.algolia.com/?q=meditation https://hn.algolia.com/?q=mindfulness https://hn.algolia.com/?q=mindfulness If you read the HN threads you will find countless people talking about how meditation has helped them from their personal experiences. Meditation has a lot of benefits and the results have been scientifically validated by different groups of researchers: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000578940700072X http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005789407... http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00845519 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00845519 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-brain/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to... A recent research even showed that meditation is more powerful than a placebo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10789738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10789738 If you are still skeptical, watch this video by Dan Harris, a skeptical news reporter turned meditation evangelist, it convinced me to meditate everyday and I think it'll convince you too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAcTIrA2Qhk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAcTIrA2Qhk

nichochar 11y ago

Although I'm a fan of meditation, and actually do think it increases focus, I think the experiment they conducted is not very scientific: >Headed by Katherine MacLean at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, the study measured the volunteers’ attention skills by showing them a succession of vertical lines flashed up on a computer screen. They then had to indicate, by clicking a mouse, whenever there was a line shorter than the rest. As the retreat progressed, MacLean and her colleagues noted that the volunteers became progressively more accurate and found it increasingly easy to stay focused on the task for long periods. I feel like I could also get better at it just by practicing... At least I think they should have benchmarked the experiment by comparing to people not meditating 5 hours a day, this is just inductive reasoning to me. This being said, I love meditating and have found it to bring lots of good benefits to me. I find that focus can be trained in better ways, but meditation is great at making me enjoy the present moment, and take my time more.

maroonblazer 11y ago
>I find that focus can be trained in better ways Such as?

imoff 11y ago

Can meditation be used to cure premature ejaculation?

zafka 11y ago
assuming you are serious, see tantric meditation
- imoff 11y ago
  I'm serious, thanks.