5 ms·

While your comment is technically correct, I think you're discounting the huge amount of value added by barrel selection and blending. I agree companies should

by dnr 11y ago

While your comment is technically correct, I think you're discounting the huge amount of value added by barrel selection and blending. I agree companies should probably be more transparent about it (maybe call it "independent bottling", like in the Scotch world). But I would (and do) pay a lot more for someone to go pick out a handful of barrels of various ages from MGP's stocks to target a particular flavor profile, then to get a blend of everything someone's dinky still produced after three years (because that's all they've got, so they have to sell it all).

tptacek 11y ago
For the most part, resellers selling MGP whiskey aren't blending. MGP has a whole menu of different whiskey recipes. Moreover, the people best known for manipulating MGP products are a worst-case: Templeton, for instance, "adds value" by adding flavorants to their MGP juice. Aging makes a much bigger different in Scotch than it does in Bourbon and Rye, neither of which are usually aged that long. Also: the reason most artisanal vendors use MGP in the first place is that they can't wait 5-10 years to start selling product. Distillation isn't the hard part of selling whiskey; waiting for maturation is. There's also the small-barrel effect that the "artisanal" supplies run into: you have business incentives to use small barrels to be more nimble in the market, but it turns out that small barrels also harm the maturation of the whiskey.
- kasey_junk 11y ago
  "Small barrels also harm the maturation..." Just to be clear, I agree that I prefer whiskey aged in traditional sized barrels, but it's just a preference. The whiskey isn't "harmed". I know several people with well trained palates that like or even prefer small barrel whiskey. Same for heat aged, press aged etc.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    I am admittedly just repeating something Cowdery says.
- packetized 11y ago
  I'm not sure that small barrels harm the maturation of whiskey at all; see Laphroaig's excellent Quarter Cask scotch, as an example. As an aside, some of the current rock-stars in the 'artisanal' non-distiller producer world make extensive use of MGP/LDI products - High West and Smooth Ambler come to mind. Templeton is an easy (and deserving) target, but I'd rather highlight the resellers that are blending MGP, and are doing amazing things with it. If you're ever in SF, I'd be happy to buy you a flight of whiskies sourced from MGP (sans Templeton) that all exhibit wildly different profiles; it may or may not change your views on MGP.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    There are High West products I love --- Midwinter's, for instance --- but most of what they sell is forgettable. But I mean, I agree that there are some good MGP users (Angel's Envy is another) --- the problem is, most bottlers who resell MGP aren't good. Wait wait what I meant to say was yes, next time I'm in SFBA (probably mid-Jan), you can definitely buy me whiskey.
    - packetized 11y ago
      Barreled Manhattan Double Rye, Rocky Mountain Rye (12, 16, 21yr), Yippie Ki-Yay... there's a lot to love in High West's line. Also, I'll wager you haven't heard of most of MGP's bottlers - MGP wants it that way. Look at Willett, KGB, et al. Ps: Hard Water on the Embarcadero is fantastic. Hit me up.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        The annoying thing is that a lot of MGP's resellers also distill high-quality products, and use MGP to fill out their lines.
        kasey_junk 11y ago
        It doesn't bother me much. There are what 10 real bourbon distilleries in the world that can produce at commercial levels? If those companies couldn't contract distill then everything would be more expensive & if the little guys couldn't buy from them they also wouldn't be able to do orphan barrel releases or experimental.
- kbenson 11y ago
  I wonder when we'll see stuff from that guy who developed a good artificial aging process[1] hit the streets then (if we haven't already, and assuming it actually works). That would pretty much solve this issue. Well, the aging lag time portion of it, not the bootstrap-by-misleading portion, which looks to be financially motivated. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387
Animats 11y ago
"Barrel selection and blending" - no. That's not how MGP works. MGP Ingredients, formerly Midwest Grain Products, formerly Midwest Solvents, is in Atcheson, Kansas, and Pekin, Illinois. What comes out of MGP is plain ethanol, in railroad tank cars. Some of it goes to beverage plants, and some of it goes to refineries to be added to gasoline.[2] They do not use "barrels". They use tank farms. This is MGP's distillery in Atcheson, Kansas in StreetView.[1] It looks like a small oil refinery. MGP is up front about this. Check out this StreetView picture of a tank in their tank farm.[4] The tank is clearly labeled "192 Proof Alcohol - 200,000 Gallon Capacity". That's usable either for powering flex-fuel cars, or as feedstock for booze makers. Check out their rail yard, with dozens of tank cars full of alcohol.[5] (The ones inside the security fence are probably full and ready to go; the ones outside are empties waiting to be loaded.) This is how it's made. One of the big consumers of MGP ethanol is Frank-Lin Distillers' Products, which used to be in San Jose near the rail yard and is now in Fairfield, CA, where they are next door to a bottle plant and have their own railroad siding. Frank-Lin makes about two thousand different alcohol-based products.[3] Some they sell themselves; some are outsourced brands made for others. They used to make SKYY Vodka. SKYY was an entirely outsourced operation; the SKYY company itself just handled marketing and sales. (SKYY later sold out to Campari, which moved production to some Campari plant.) Frank-Lin takes in ethanol and does some additional re-distillation. They have a water de-ionizing plant which takes in city water. They mix water, alcohol, and flavoring, then bottle, using a highly automated bottling line which can switch bottle types without a shutdown. Out of their plant come brandy, whiskey, vodka, rum, tequila, and even wine brands. "With an annual production capability of 15 million cases and on-premise tank storage capacity in excess of 1,500,000 gallons, Frank-Lin has the facilities and expertise to efficiently handle any project. Frank-Lin is a provider of contract bottling services for major national spirit brand owners." Frank-Lin also handles distribution. They have an advantage in this - they're not a distiller. US law requires three independent tiers - distillers/brewers, distributors, and retailers. Usually, that means a distiller makes and bottles an end-user product and sells it to a distributor, who sells it to a retailer. But Frank-Lin is considered a distributor - they buy their alcohol already distilled. So they get to remove one layer of middlemen. Since they ship to almost every liquor store in the western US, it doesn't cost them much more to add brands. That's how the booze industry really works. All else is hype. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/dQifXrzdWMH2 https://goo.gl/maps/dQifXrzdWMH2 [2] http://www.mgpingredients.com/alcohol/beverage/ http://www.mgpingredients.com/alcohol/beverage/ [3] http://www.frank-lin.com/ http://www.frank-lin.com/ [4] https://goo.gl/maps/c92moNiXDGx https://goo.gl/maps/c92moNiXDGx [5] https://goo.gl/maps/h5t3AeDhZ1U2 https://goo.gl/maps/h5t3AeDhZ1U2

by dnr 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

For the most part, resellers selling MGP whiskey aren't blending. MGP has a whole menu of different whiskey recipes. Moreover, the people best known for manipulating MGP products are a worst-case: Templeton, for instance, "adds value" by adding flavorants to their MGP juice. Aging makes a much bigger different in Scotch than it does in Bourbon and Rye, neither of which are usually aged that long. Also: the reason most artisanal vendors use MGP in the first place is that they can't wait 5-10 years to start selling product. Distillation isn't the hard part of selling whiskey; waiting for maturation is. There's also the small-barrel effect that the "artisanal" supplies run into: you have business incentives to use small barrels to be more nimble in the market, but it turns out that small barrels also harm the maturation of the whiskey.

kasey_junk 11y ago
"Small barrels also harm the maturation..." Just to be clear, I agree that I prefer whiskey aged in traditional sized barrels, but it's just a preference. The whiskey isn't "harmed". I know several people with well trained palates that like or even prefer small barrel whiskey. Same for heat aged, press aged etc.
- tptacek 11y ago
  I am admittedly just repeating something Cowdery says.
packetized 11y ago
I'm not sure that small barrels harm the maturation of whiskey at all; see Laphroaig's excellent Quarter Cask scotch, as an example. As an aside, some of the current rock-stars in the 'artisanal' non-distiller producer world make extensive use of MGP/LDI products - High West and Smooth Ambler come to mind. Templeton is an easy (and deserving) target, but I'd rather highlight the resellers that are blending MGP, and are doing amazing things with it. If you're ever in SF, I'd be happy to buy you a flight of whiskies sourced from MGP (sans Templeton) that all exhibit wildly different profiles; it may or may not change your views on MGP.
- tptacek 11y ago
  There are High West products I love --- Midwinter's, for instance --- but most of what they sell is forgettable. But I mean, I agree that there are some good MGP users (Angel's Envy is another) --- the problem is, most bottlers who resell MGP aren't good. Wait wait what I meant to say was yes, next time I'm in SFBA (probably mid-Jan), you can definitely buy me whiskey.
  - packetized 11y ago
    Barreled Manhattan Double Rye, Rocky Mountain Rye (12, 16, 21yr), Yippie Ki-Yay... there's a lot to love in High West's line. Also, I'll wager you haven't heard of most of MGP's bottlers - MGP wants it that way. Look at Willett, KGB, et al. Ps: Hard Water on the Embarcadero is fantastic. Hit me up.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      The annoying thing is that a lot of MGP's resellers also distill high-quality products, and use MGP to fill out their lines.
      - kasey_junk 11y ago
        It doesn't bother me much. There are what 10 real bourbon distilleries in the world that can produce at commercial levels? If those companies couldn't contract distill then everything would be more expensive & if the little guys couldn't buy from them they also wouldn't be able to do orphan barrel releases or experimental.
kbenson 11y ago
I wonder when we'll see stuff from that guy who developed a good artificial aging process[1] hit the streets then (if we haven't already, and assuming it actually works). That would pretty much solve this issue. Well, the aging lag time portion of it, not the bootstrap-by-misleading portion, which looks to be financially motivated. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9369387

Animats 11y ago

"Barrel selection and blending" - no. That's not how MGP works. MGP Ingredients, formerly Midwest Grain Products, formerly Midwest Solvents, is in Atcheson, Kansas, and Pekin, Illinois. What comes out of MGP is plain ethanol, in railroad tank cars. Some of it goes to beverage plants, and some of it goes to refineries to be added to gasoline.[2] They do not use "barrels". They use tank farms. This is MGP's distillery in Atcheson, Kansas in StreetView.[1] It looks like a small oil refinery. MGP is up front about this. Check out this StreetView picture of a tank in their tank farm.[4] The tank is clearly labeled "192 Proof Alcohol - 200,000 Gallon Capacity". That's usable either for powering flex-fuel cars, or as feedstock for booze makers. Check out their rail yard, with dozens of tank cars full of alcohol.[5] (The ones inside the security fence are probably full and ready to go; the ones outside are empties waiting to be loaded.) This is how it's made. One of the big consumers of MGP ethanol is Frank-Lin Distillers' Products, which used to be in San Jose near the rail yard and is now in Fairfield, CA, where they are next door to a bottle plant and have their own railroad siding. Frank-Lin makes about two thousand different alcohol-based products.[3] Some they sell themselves; some are outsourced brands made for others. They used to make SKYY Vodka. SKYY was an entirely outsourced operation; the SKYY company itself just handled marketing and sales. (SKYY later sold out to Campari, which moved production to some Campari plant.) Frank-Lin takes in ethanol and does some additional re-distillation. They have a water de-ionizing plant which takes in city water. They mix water, alcohol, and flavoring, then bottle, using a highly automated bottling line which can switch bottle types without a shutdown. Out of their plant come brandy, whiskey, vodka, rum, tequila, and even wine brands. "With an annual production capability of 15 million cases and on-premise tank storage capacity in excess of 1,500,000 gallons, Frank-Lin has the facilities and expertise to efficiently handle any project. Frank-Lin is a provider of contract bottling services for major national spirit brand owners." Frank-Lin also handles distribution. They have an advantage in this - they're not a distiller. US law requires three independent tiers - distillers/brewers, distributors, and retailers. Usually, that means a distiller makes and bottles an end-user product and sells it to a distributor, who sells it to a retailer. But Frank-Lin is considered a distributor - they buy their alcohol already distilled. So they get to remove one layer of middlemen. Since they ship to almost every liquor store in the western US, it doesn't cost them much more to add brands. That's how the booze industry really works. All else is hype. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/dQifXrzdWMH2 https://goo.gl/maps/dQifXrzdWMH2 [2] http://www.mgpingredients.com/alcohol/beverage/ http://www.mgpingredients.com/alcohol/beverage/ [3] http://www.frank-lin.com/ http://www.frank-lin.com/ [4] https://goo.gl/maps/c92moNiXDGx https://goo.gl/maps/c92moNiXDGx [5] https://goo.gl/maps/h5t3AeDhZ1U2 https://goo.gl/maps/h5t3AeDhZ1U2