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Much like the US has all sorts of scrub lands in the west that knock down the population density numbers, China has all sorts of scrub lands in the west that kn

Much like the US has all sorts of scrub lands in the west that knock down the population density numbers, China has all sorts of scrub lands in the west that knock down the population density numbers.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Not just scrub lands. They literally have mountains everywhere, even between heavy populated eastern cities. If you take a bullet train from Beijing to Guangzhou, it is heavily tunneled for much of the entire trip, which makes the task even more amazing.
- Retric 11y ago
  Japan is mostly mountans which is why 68.5% of the country is covered in forests. Where farms cover 50% of China and 12% of Japan. Now China has more land at higher elevation and less rainfall on the western half, but elevation is only an issue at steep gradients or extreme elevations. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#/media/File%3AChina_topo.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_the_People%27s...
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Uhm...no. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_China > Although China's agricultural output is the largest in the world, only about 15% of its total land area can be cultivated. China's arable land, which represents 10% of the total arable land in the world, supports over 20% of the world's population. Of this approximately 1.4 million square kilometers of arable land, only about 1.2% (116,580 square kilometers) permanently supports crops and 525,800 square kilometers are irrigated. > China's limited space for farming has been a problem throughout its history, leading to chronic food shortage. While the production efficiency of farmland has grown over time, efforts to expand to the west and the north have met with limited success, as such land is generally colder and drier than traditional farmlands to the east. China and Japan really aren't that far off on topology.
    - Retric 11y ago
      Farms are more than just crops. livestock grazing covers vast stretches grassland land. Out of 3.7 million square miles. "An estimated 544,784 km² of land were irrigated in 2004. 42.9% of total land area was used as pasture, and 17.5% was forest." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_China Of note, irrigation allows you to use pastre to grow crops, so they can expand area under cultivation significantly.
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        That is all out west, where water resources are limited and altitude is very, very, very high. You can't grow much at 3000+ meters, even if you had all the water in the world! I absolutely got tired of eating meat in north Xinjiang since they couldn't grow anything out there. So here is China's topography. East China is mostly mountains. You can grow things in the occasional valley and plains. Or you can terrace the mountains (done in Japan also). West China is more higher mountains (but not so scrunched together as in east China), and very high plains (Litang is a city in Sichuan at 5000 meters). The occasional agriculture still happens (e.g. central Xinjiang), but its mostly desolate.
        Retric 11y ago
        Soil is generally much worse at altitude, but you can grow a wide range of crops up to ~5,000 feet and some vegetables up to ~7,000 feet. The lack of water is the largest limiting factor, followed by minimal needs. Anyway, if you go by % of land under cultivation China and Japan are close but Japan has much higher population density which historically was supported largely through fishing where China was much more focused on grazing animals due to geography.
        seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        There is some agriculture in Tibetan Himalayan areas, but you are limited to mostly staples (barley is popular). The areas where animals graze in China are not densely populated, and not much of that meat is exported east to densely populated areas, at least when compared to pork (China's most popular meat) and chicken (China's second most popular meat); grazing animals are mostly limited to Muslim niche foods (well, not niche if you are Muslim!). Grazing animals have not had much effect on China's population density (and if you think about it, the huge amount of land required to graze animals necessarily limits population density). Jiangsu, a Chinese province of 79 million people, has twice the density of Japan, a country of 125 million. However, Jiangsu is one of those provinces that is completely flat. Much of the densities of China's mountainous provinces (like say Hebei) are quite similar to Japan.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago

Not just scrub lands. They literally have mountains everywhere, even between heavy populated eastern cities. If you take a bullet train from Beijing to Guangzhou, it is heavily tunneled for much of the entire trip, which makes the task even more amazing.

Retric 11y ago
Japan is mostly mountans which is why 68.5% of the country is covered in forests. Where farms cover 50% of China and 12% of Japan. Now China has more land at higher elevation and less rainfall on the western half, but elevation is only an issue at steep gradients or extreme elevations. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#/media/File%3AChina_topo.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_the_People%27s...
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Uhm...no. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_China > Although China's agricultural output is the largest in the world, only about 15% of its total land area can be cultivated. China's arable land, which represents 10% of the total arable land in the world, supports over 20% of the world's population. Of this approximately 1.4 million square kilometers of arable land, only about 1.2% (116,580 square kilometers) permanently supports crops and 525,800 square kilometers are irrigated. > China's limited space for farming has been a problem throughout its history, leading to chronic food shortage. While the production efficiency of farmland has grown over time, efforts to expand to the west and the north have met with limited success, as such land is generally colder and drier than traditional farmlands to the east. China and Japan really aren't that far off on topology.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Farms are more than just crops. livestock grazing covers vast stretches grassland land. Out of 3.7 million square miles. "An estimated 544,784 km² of land were irrigated in 2004. 42.9% of total land area was used as pasture, and 17.5% was forest." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_China Of note, irrigation allows you to use pastre to grow crops, so they can expand area under cultivation significantly.
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      That is all out west, where water resources are limited and altitude is very, very, very high. You can't grow much at 3000+ meters, even if you had all the water in the world! I absolutely got tired of eating meat in north Xinjiang since they couldn't grow anything out there. So here is China's topography. East China is mostly mountains. You can grow things in the occasional valley and plains. Or you can terrace the mountains (done in Japan also). West China is more higher mountains (but not so scrunched together as in east China), and very high plains (Litang is a city in Sichuan at 5000 meters). The occasional agriculture still happens (e.g. central Xinjiang), but its mostly desolate.
      - Retric 11y ago
        Soil is generally much worse at altitude, but you can grow a wide range of crops up to ~5,000 feet and some vegetables up to ~7,000 feet. The lack of water is the largest limiting factor, followed by minimal needs. Anyway, if you go by % of land under cultivation China and Japan are close but Japan has much higher population density which historically was supported largely through fishing where China was much more focused on grazing animals due to geography.
        seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        There is some agriculture in Tibetan Himalayan areas, but you are limited to mostly staples (barley is popular). The areas where animals graze in China are not densely populated, and not much of that meat is exported east to densely populated areas, at least when compared to pork (China's most popular meat) and chicken (China's second most popular meat); grazing animals are mostly limited to Muslim niche foods (well, not niche if you are Muslim!). Grazing animals have not had much effect on China's population density (and if you think about it, the huge amount of land required to graze animals necessarily limits population density). Jiangsu, a Chinese province of 79 million people, has twice the density of Japan, a country of 125 million. However, Jiangsu is one of those provinces that is completely flat. Much of the densities of China's mountainous provinces (like say Hebei) are quite similar to Japan.