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10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the w

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effectiveness. Lea Verou (the author of the article) perfectly explains that even though there is undoubtedly a problem, a problem whose degree is not/can not be calculated (she also indirectly, simply by not giving it more article-time, makes us understand that the lack of statistics doesn't mean this problem doesn't exist or should not be resolved), this problem can and has already been solved, not by company policies or special rules, but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, and amazingly across all mindsets and ways of thinking this rule means, for anyone beginning from the wee age that they understand what those words mean, that one should be treated in a way that is free of bias, fair and rational. I will read this article again, and I will recommend it to friends and acquaintances and family, because sexism is a problem beyond tech too (in certain industries it might be an even bigger problem). I think this article and hopefully ones like it that either exist already that I do not know of, or ones that will be written afterwards, are a great way to make us realise that all people should be treated the way that we want to be treated, and I truly believe that will be enough to fix the problem of "women in tech".

DanBC 11y ago
> treat others the way you want to be treated, You've never had a pathological arsehole for a boss?
- indifferentalex 11y ago
  I'm still studying and have never encountered obstacles set up by people with institutional power over me, so I am to a degree naive and privileged, however I was talking more about the day to day interactions that happen with a myriad of different people, mostly your peers (which apart from a few instances where it was the "bosses of tech" causing the problems, from what I remember reading the sexism usually came from the coworkers of the women). I definitely wasn't commenting on the application of the author's thoughts to all of human interaction, and didn't mean to come off that naive.
  - jstanley 11y ago
    > I'm still studying and have never encountered obstacles set up by people with institutional power over me You'll meet more obstacles set up by people with institutional power over you at school and university than you ever will in the "real world".
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    Maybe you should wait until you get in the industry before you start speaking authoritatively about it. (alternatively, "you're only 15, you don't have a rep yet")
- hoorayimhelping 11y ago
  A lot of us have. And fuck that, I'm not letting some asshole change my behavior or outlook. I'm still going to follow my beliefs, even if he violates them and makes me want to tell him to fuck off. The notion of a golden rule wasn't thought up with people who smile at me and wish me well in mind - it was designed for the pathological asshole.
- cbd1984 11y ago
  You treat them nicely while you keep your records and protect yourself as well as you can. You can say "No" nicely, and you can instigate a lawsuit without ever losing your decorum or sense of fair play.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  I leave when I encounter that. Its the only viable solution when the other party in the relationship isn't reasonable.
- cortesoft 11y ago
  Luckily in the tech industry, employees have a lot more power than in other industries. We can just leave and get another job.
userium 11y ago
Based on discussions we have had with women in tech at https://keepwomen.com https://keepwomen.com, it's not just sexism, but many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting), or the company environment (poor cultural "fit"). Some solutions for retaining women in tech are e.g. flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity.
- asuffield 11y ago
  I would say, based on everything that I've seen and heard, that the problems you describe here are far bigger and more important than the things which usually dominate the debate. These problems are also not specific to gender: they affect most minority groups and also other wide swathes of the population (based on personality type, lifestyle, etc). The tech industry norms have ended up favouring a very specific type of individual, and that is the fundamental problem that we need to address in order to get the genuinely diverse workforce that I believe we need. What usually frustrates me about the "sexism" debate is that it studiously avoids addressing these issues, and drowns out most attempts to focus on them.
- falcolas 11y ago
  If I'm honest, it sounds like the same issues everybody in tech faces. We're all consistently under-compensated for the value we bring to the company (sometimes because measuring the value is genuinely hard, other times because the tech industry is solely focused on making investors money), have to leave a job to advance our careers, fight the internal politics and cliques which form between departments and teams...
  - joshkpeterson 11y ago
    Yeah but if you listen to women's experiences, there clearly are distinct problems women in tech face.
- eric-hu 11y ago
  Those are the same reasons I've heard for why we have a young age distribution in tech relative to the age distribution of the general population. Poor industry retention seems to be a problem across the board.
gotchange 11y ago
> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?
- gvb 11y ago
  The golden rule requires you to be courteous regardless of gender. For instance, when you reach the door first, hold it open for the others, regardless of their gender.
  - Ntrails 11y ago
    No, it doesn't. It says "If you would want them to hold the door open for you were the places switched, then hold the door open." Of course if I don't really care about it, then I'm free not to bother. If I would rather someone confronted me when my code is shit, rather than letting it slide, then that is how I treat everyone else too. There is a strong argument to say the golden rule is really saying "treat others the way society tells you to" and some contend it should simply be "treat others the way they want to be treated". Of course at that point you've lost the simplicity of the original phrase and the primary teaching implement of self interest. Not to mention, at some point there are limits to the extent I am going to pander to someones wishes in how they want to be treated. I respect your right to self-identify as an attack helicopter, but I'm not going to bow my head as I approach to avoid your rotor blades.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- squeaky-clean 11y ago
  More like no more gentlemanly treatment just because they're a woman. A real gentleman will be gentlemanly to everyone.
- joshkpeterson 11y ago
  Yes.
SuperComputing 11y ago
And the "sexism" debate was stirred by people who were only tangentially involved in Tech, like the PR person "Adria Richards". If you listen to actual women with actual Math, CS, or EE degrees, you'll hear a different story.
- ksenzee 11y ago
  Right. My title is Senior Software Engineer, with the corresponding experience and salary, but since my degrees are not in one of those three fields, I'm only tangentially involved in tech. Thanks for providing such a succinct demonstration of the kind of dismissal "actual women" in the field get to hear all the time.
  - Joeboy 11y ago
    > since my degrees are not in one of those three fields, I'm only tangentially involved in tech That conclusion cannot reasonably be inferred from the post you are responding to.
    - danielmason 11y ago
      Are you being serious? That's exactly what's being implied. Which part of tangentially involved in tech juxtaposed with unlike women with Math, CS, or EE degrees would lead you to read that differently?
      - Joeboy 11y ago
        I am honestly as confused by your interpretation as you are by mine. I don't have any of those degrees, and I don't infer that Supercomputing is dismissing me as "tangentially" involved in tech. They are suggesting that Adria Richards' "Developer Evangelist" role wasn't a real technical role, which I couldn't really comment on. I don't think they are implying that ksenzee's "Senior Software Engineer" role doesn't count as a technical role.
        11y ago
mtrimpe 11y ago
I really enjoyed the article but I hope that the conclusion is that it's now possible to live in a bubble (not meant pejoratively) where you don't experience sexism. Being able to live in that bubble is probably dependent on class, status, confidence and certain personality traits; but it is possible and that's great! It is really important though to realize that it is a bubble and to be mindful of where it ends and what happens when you hit the edges of the bubble. Source: Being LGBT in Amsterdam and having lived in a similar bubble for a long time but eventually having it burst.
joe_the_user 11y ago
I'd draw exactly the opposite conclusion. What matters isn't individual niceness but organization imperatives. One thing to consider is that "Tech" encompasses a number of organization types. Organizations vary in both how large and bureaucratic they are as well as how ruthlessly competitive they are. Working at Intel years ago, I saw an organization committed to equality in the work place but with a brutal demand that everyone produce. The worst offenders for sexism seem to be small organizations with a brutally competitive environments but not having bureaucratic restraints on bad behavior - Zillow, etc[1]. Honestly, the answer seems to be that you need more regulation and especially regulation that will hit small bad actor companies hard. The rules hardly have to be "special", just a basic demand for proper behavior and an understanding there will be serious consequences for violation. [1] http://fortune.com/2014/12/05/zillow-discrimination-lawsuit/ http://fortune.com/2014/12/05/zillow-discrimination-lawsuit/
- drumdance 11y ago
  > organization imperatives That's my feeling as well. My sister has worked in tech since 1981, but it's not Silicon Valley tech. It's large company tech like IBM and Citigroup. I asked if she's ever felt discriminated against and she said never. The closest she's come is working for a company that had a bit of a military culture because most of the senior leadership were ex-military. But even there she never felt discriminated against for being a woman per se.

DanBC 11y ago

> treat others the way you want to be treated, You've never had a pathological arsehole for a boss?

indifferentalex 11y ago
I'm still studying and have never encountered obstacles set up by people with institutional power over me, so I am to a degree naive and privileged, however I was talking more about the day to day interactions that happen with a myriad of different people, mostly your peers (which apart from a few instances where it was the "bosses of tech" causing the problems, from what I remember reading the sexism usually came from the coworkers of the women). I definitely wasn't commenting on the application of the author's thoughts to all of human interaction, and didn't mean to come off that naive.
- jstanley 11y ago
  > I'm still studying and have never encountered obstacles set up by people with institutional power over me You'll meet more obstacles set up by people with institutional power over you at school and university than you ever will in the "real world".
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Maybe you should wait until you get in the industry before you start speaking authoritatively about it. (alternatively, "you're only 15, you don't have a rep yet")
hoorayimhelping 11y ago
A lot of us have. And fuck that, I'm not letting some asshole change my behavior or outlook. I'm still going to follow my beliefs, even if he violates them and makes me want to tell him to fuck off. The notion of a golden rule wasn't thought up with people who smile at me and wish me well in mind - it was designed for the pathological asshole.
cbd1984 11y ago
You treat them nicely while you keep your records and protect yourself as well as you can. You can say "No" nicely, and you can instigate a lawsuit without ever losing your decorum or sense of fair play.
fweespeech 11y ago
I leave when I encounter that. Its the only viable solution when the other party in the relationship isn't reasonable.
cortesoft 11y ago
Luckily in the tech industry, employees have a lot more power than in other industries. We can just leave and get another job.

userium 11y ago

Based on discussions we have had with women in tech at https://keepwomen.com https://keepwomen.com, it's not just sexism, but many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting), or the company environment (poor cultural "fit"). Some solutions for retaining women in tech are e.g. flexible working hours, personal development opportunities and workforce diversity.

asuffield 11y ago
I would say, based on everything that I've seen and heard, that the problems you describe here are far bigger and more important than the things which usually dominate the debate. These problems are also not specific to gender: they affect most minority groups and also other wide swathes of the population (based on personality type, lifestyle, etc). The tech industry norms have ended up favouring a very specific type of individual, and that is the fundamental problem that we need to address in order to get the genuinely diverse workforce that I believe we need. What usually frustrates me about the "sexism" debate is that it studiously avoids addressing these issues, and drowns out most attempts to focus on them.
falcolas 11y ago
If I'm honest, it sounds like the same issues everybody in tech faces. We're all consistently under-compensated for the value we bring to the company (sometimes because measuring the value is genuinely hard, other times because the tech industry is solely focused on making investors money), have to leave a job to advance our careers, fight the internal politics and cliques which form between departments and teams...
- joshkpeterson 11y ago
  Yeah but if you listen to women's experiences, there clearly are distinct problems women in tech face.
eric-hu 11y ago
Those are the same reasons I've heard for why we have a young age distribution in tech relative to the age distribution of the general population. Poor industry retention seems to be a problem across the board.

gotchange 11y ago

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?

gvb 11y ago
The golden rule requires you to be courteous regardless of gender. For instance, when you reach the door first, hold it open for the others, regardless of their gender.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  No, it doesn't. It says "If you would want them to hold the door open for you were the places switched, then hold the door open." Of course if I don't really care about it, then I'm free not to bother. If I would rather someone confronted me when my code is shit, rather than letting it slide, then that is how I treat everyone else too. There is a strong argument to say the golden rule is really saying "treat others the way society tells you to" and some contend it should simply be "treat others the way they want to be treated". Of course at that point you've lost the simplicity of the original phrase and the primary teaching implement of self interest. Not to mention, at some point there are limits to the extent I am going to pander to someones wishes in how they want to be treated. I respect your right to self-identify as an attack helicopter, but I'm not going to bow my head as I approach to avoid your rotor blades.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
squeaky-clean 11y ago
More like no more gentlemanly treatment just because they're a woman. A real gentleman will be gentlemanly to everyone.
joshkpeterson 11y ago
Yes.

SuperComputing 11y ago

And the "sexism" debate was stirred by people who were only tangentially involved in Tech, like the PR person "Adria Richards". If you listen to actual women with actual Math, CS, or EE degrees, you'll hear a different story.

ksenzee 11y ago
Right. My title is Senior Software Engineer, with the corresponding experience and salary, but since my degrees are not in one of those three fields, I'm only tangentially involved in tech. Thanks for providing such a succinct demonstration of the kind of dismissal "actual women" in the field get to hear all the time.
- Joeboy 11y ago
  > since my degrees are not in one of those three fields, I'm only tangentially involved in tech That conclusion cannot reasonably be inferred from the post you are responding to.
  - danielmason 11y ago
    Are you being serious? That's exactly what's being implied. Which part of tangentially involved in tech juxtaposed with unlike women with Math, CS, or EE degrees would lead you to read that differently?
    - Joeboy 11y ago
      I am honestly as confused by your interpretation as you are by mine. I don't have any of those degrees, and I don't infer that Supercomputing is dismissing me as "tangentially" involved in tech. They are suggesting that Adria Richards' "Developer Evangelist" role wasn't a real technical role, which I couldn't really comment on. I don't think they are implying that ksenzee's "Senior Software Engineer" role doesn't count as a technical role.
      - 11y ago

mtrimpe 11y ago

I really enjoyed the article but I hope that the conclusion is that it's now possible to live in a bubble (not meant pejoratively) where you don't experience sexism. Being able to live in that bubble is probably dependent on class, status, confidence and certain personality traits; but it is possible and that's great! It is really important though to realize that it is a bubble and to be mindful of where it ends and what happens when you hit the edges of the bubble. Source: Being LGBT in Amsterdam and having lived in a similar bubble for a long time but eventually having it burst.

joe_the_user 11y ago

I'd draw exactly the opposite conclusion. What matters isn't individual niceness but organization imperatives. One thing to consider is that "Tech" encompasses a number of organization types. Organizations vary in both how large and bureaucratic they are as well as how ruthlessly competitive they are. Working at Intel years ago, I saw an organization committed to equality in the work place but with a brutal demand that everyone produce. The worst offenders for sexism seem to be small organizations with a brutally competitive environments but not having bureaucratic restraints on bad behavior - Zillow, etc[1]. Honestly, the answer seems to be that you need more regulation and especially regulation that will hit small bad actor companies hard. The rules hardly have to be "special", just a basic demand for proper behavior and an understanding there will be serious consequences for violation. [1] http://fortune.com/2014/12/05/zillow-discrimination-lawsuit/ http://fortune.com/2014/12/05/zillow-discrimination-lawsuit/

drumdance 11y ago
> organization imperatives That's my feeling as well. My sister has worked in tech since 1981, but it's not Silicon Valley tech. It's large company tech like IBM and Citigroup. I asked if she's ever felt discriminated against and she said never. The closest she's come is working for a company that had a bit of a military culture because most of the senior leadership were ex-military. But even there she never felt discriminated against for being a woman per se.