8 ms·

Most of the comments here are complaining that, while people like the idea of DDG, the search results are poor. Two comments regarding that: 1) the only way DD

Most of the comments here are complaining that, while people like the idea of DDG, the search results are poor. Two comments regarding that: 1) the only way DDG is going to improve search results is by you using it regularly. Using it regularly drives not only revenue, allowing them to hire additional developers, but it also drives feedback to help DDG improve search results. 2) I suspect that the difference in search results may partly be conditioned responses. We are accustomed to what we find through Google, so when DDG presents something that looks different (e.g. showing a different answers site that has the exact same result), we feel uncomfortable and think it's not what we want. I think this is just something that takes time to adjust to, but also something DDG needs to think about how try to figure out how to overcome.

netcan 11y ago
I think an unavoidable conclusion is that while people may like privacy or some other benefit/function, they are rarely willing to take a hit on the main benefit/function (search results) to get it. It think this is an important thing to learn here as it applies in many cases. Maybe everyone complains about bad behaviour of their insurance company, but that does not mean they'll take a higher premium. Some people care about autonomy at work, but most will not take a lower salary to get it. People care about the ethics of manufacturing phones, but they won't take a phone that represents a compromise. There's something here about "consumer" psychology and choices that is hard to capture in the concrete terms economists like to formalize using. I think there are usually some very basic main points that people make decisions based on and some secondary points that people don't make decisions based on. The secondary ones may be the ones they talk about more or care about more, but not in a way that affects their choices.
- Rainymood 11y ago
  >Maybe everyone complains about bad behaviour of their insurance company, but that does not mean they'll take a higher premium Exactly. >There's something here about "consumer" psychology and choices that is hard to capture in the concrete terms economists like to formalize using. That some/most economists like to use. There is a huge field in economics (and econophysics and stuff) that focused on actual irrational behaviour (like trend-following, trying to time the market, predicting the 'mood' of the market). I find this a very interesting field of study. My god the rational agent model is so bloody stupid but it makes calculations feasible, that's literally the only reason we use it nowadays ... There is one thing you can't buy. You can't buy love* * with exceptions of course
  - personlurking 11y ago
    Former Uruguay president Mujica has some thoughts on your last statement regarding things you can't buy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXMpQf2XyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXMpQf2XyE)
    - rogeryu 11y ago
      Thanks. That is a very valuable statement. Something to keep in mind!
  - NoGravitas 11y ago
    And home-grown tomatoes.
  - djsumdog 11y ago
    It's like people buying beats audio headphones.
  - jerf 11y ago
    "My god the rational agent model is so bloody stupid but it makes calculations feasible, that's literally the only reason we use it nowadays ..." I find myself surprisingly often having to remind people that a world in which 64GB of RAM, 16 cores, a dozen terabytes of storage, and programming environments that let people harness all of these things, can all come out to a budget within reach of a middle-class individual who really wants it, is a VERY recent development, one still sinking in to the rest of the world. Rational agents have really always been known to be false, but good luck in 1980 getting an economist to write any sort of simulation of 100 million agents doing something slightly irrational to see what happens. They're going to face some pretty stiff competition for the supercomputer time that would represent... and the supercomputer in question would still be grossly underpowered compared to modern systems, so it would take some clever programming too. Even as clock speeds may have frozen, even in the last 5 years there has been a noticeable drop in the price of computing power. Beating up past economists for using the rational agent model is like getting beaten by people 50 years in our future for not just using AIs to solve problems, just because the phone in their pocket is populated by a couple dozen human-intelligent entities running locally, to say nothing of the civilization in "the cloud".
- bsbechtel 11y ago
  I think you're fundamentally right, when considering the benefits DDG vs Google offer today, at a static point in time. Remember, however, that the world is dynamic and constantly changing, and things like the Snowden leaks change how much we/consumers value privacy vs easy of use (and certainly factors that affect things in Google's favor can happen too!). I am guessing that most people who get screwed over by their insurance company, even once, are willing to pay a higher premium in the future (assuming they can afford it after suffering the financial damage caused by said insurance company refusing to pay). My original point was that things are changing, DDG is improving, and some things are purely perception issues. We like to talk about companies and markets in terms of battles, with concrete winners and losers coming out at the end of the day, but things are always changing. Google is the clear winner today (but also had a 10 year head start), but it may or may not always be that way.
personjerry 11y ago
Would it be possible for DDG to base their some result, distantly, off of some scrape of Google, thereby likely increasing relevance?
- S4M 11y ago
  That will not work for all types of search, like things related to the news (like "Paris terrorists"), and Google might block them (I think they block you for a while if you try too many searches in a short period of time).
trymas 11y ago
Well biggest problem for me with DDG that it does not track me or basic tracking does not cut it. Maybe I do not like some policies about users of big players, though some intelligence about the user makes service much better (extent of tracking is another question/rant). I am not from USA, and 30-50% of my searches are not in english and not some international terms. So when I search for something in my country and spelling of that something is the same with not what I am looking for completely on the other side of the globe, DDG becomes completely useless. Now, I know, DDG can specify where I am (or I can tell it), but the thing is that it still does not work, as I expect. Also DDG does not work as well (as Google) with some words/terms (e.g. python - snake/programming language). When I am browsing google will know that by `python` I mean programming language, and when my sister browses it means snake. Maybe you are right, that later it would do better, but for now DDG just does not cut it, and I have been trying to use it for probably 4 years. I try it once in a while and see it getting better, though no near as good as I want and alternatives offer.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  DDG has a "local search" switch on the top right corner of your search results. It seems to know where you are, you just have to ask for it.
  - trymas 11y ago
    > Now, I know, DDG can specify where I am (or I can tell it), but the thing is that it still does not work, as I expect. I know that this feature exists, but it does not cut it.
- AdamSC1 11y ago
  Hi Trymas, Thanks for the feedback - I'd be interested in hearing what language you're searching in. We've taken huge strides this past year in international language, and this is something that will continue to improve, but we always love to know where our weak points are! As far as the 'python' example, the reason you are experiencing this is two fold. Part of it stems from our approach to not filter bubbling users (http://dontbubble.us/ http://dontbubble.us/) and of course from the fact we don't record anything about you. You're totally right that if you search 'python' on Google you'd get info about the programming language, and if my biologist friend searched it on Google she'd see the snake. On DuckDuckGo that wouldn't be the case (in fact if you search python on DuckDuckGo you get the programming language and nothing about the snake) but a search like 'python food' would return results about the snake. When we remove filter bubbles and user profiles, search relies a lot more on context, and may expose additional results - it is a different style of searching and one we are trying to continue to improve - and we're really thankful for people who continue to give us a try and give feedback. We also know that sometimes other varieties of search are what you need and that's why we let you use !Bangs (https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang) via both our search bar and the URL bar if we're you're default, that re-direct your search to over 7000 different sites! Thanks for your continued support!
treerock 11y ago
I think there might be a deeper problem. One reason to use DuckDuckGo is to avoid the tracking and data collection that google does. But if that data collection allows Google to provide better search results, e.g. localised results tailored for the user, there is no way for DDG to compete (on search results at least).
- DanBC 11y ago
  People can't add their location in the search terms?
  - trymas 11y ago
    Well lazy users (including myself) do not want to always add some text for their country/language/city. Basically, everyone not from US would need to add their location.
    - xomateix 11y ago
      You don't need to, you can activate the region button on the top right [0]. It's not the same as Google, but it's good enough in many cases. [0] https://duck.co/help/settings/regions https://duck.co/help/settings/regions
      - trymas 11y ago
        Yes, I do know about that but it still fails. E.g. I live in country `x` and set my region correctly. I search for `foobarbaz` which is some thing in my country. Though in country `y` there's also a thing called `foobarbaz` and apparently this thing in country `y` is either much more popular of that country is much bigger, so I can't find `foobarbaz` in my country, or I must look deeper into other pages. Google now works so good, that I do not need to scroll for 9 times out of 10 and almost never go to other pages, whereas with DDG probably 1/3 of local searches ended up in looking in other pages.
        AdamSC1 11y ago
bobajeff 11y ago
Fundamentally what stops DDG from becoming just like Google, Bing and Yahoo when it does get as big as them? Remember how Facebook used to be all about user privacy?
- bsbechtel 11y ago
  >>Remember how Facebook used to be all about user privacy? Sorry, but no.
- pgwhalen 11y ago
  I don't think Facebook was ever really don't about privacy. Exclusivity, perhaps, but not privacy.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>the only way DDG is going to improve search results is by you using it regularly. For what company or product is that not the case? Unfortunately, most people (myself included) aren't interested in integrating inferior products into our lives with the hope that "one day" they might be as good. I decided to default to DDG last year to see how it was, and because my online privacy is worth something. I found the results lacking, having to Google things anyway, and eventually just went back to Google.
- cakes 11y ago
  I ended up giving DDG a chance as well this year and I had a similar experience. I recognize that part of it is probably how I'm conditioned but it's really frustrating to feel like I'm fighting the thing that's supposed to be helping me (which is how I felt). Hopefully it does improve over time, I do value my privacy, but I still ended up back with Google because it became too much of a hindrance.
- AdamSC1 11y ago
  Hi forgetsusername, The results have come along way over the past year, and we've also added a feedback tool that lets you share with us when you feel an answer was lacking. If you are interested in trying us again sometime I know we'd love to hear the feedback as we aim to provide a great search experience without sacrificing your privacy. We also have our "!Bangs" (https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang) which allow you to re-direct your search directly to over 7000 providers including sites like Amazon, Twitter, Stack overflow and even Google. In those cases you find a result lacking you can quickly forward the search to another provider without manually navigating or switching your default. We understand there will be times you want to search other sites and so we make that easy to do. (Although we do hope to continue to lower the need for that in the future).
  - johnsonjo 11y ago
    Bangs are honestly one of my favorite parts of Duck Duck Go and I actually found out about it from a friend a while after I switched from Google. It completely changed how I used DDG.
josteink 11y ago
> 2) I suspect that the difference in search results may partly be conditioned responses. We are accustomed to what we find through Google, so when DDG presents something that looks different It's not just that. When you search with DDG you may need to structure your search differently than you would do when searching with Google. People are just so accustomed to using Google-optimized search queries that they don't even consider that they are Google-optimized and thus they don't realize how unreasonable they are when they expect Google-optimized queries to yield equal or better results in non-Google products. Let me put it the other way: If I use my regular DDG search-terms in Google I get poorer results than I get in DDG, is that Google's fault?
- netcan 11y ago
  In a possible unfair but nonetheless relevant way, yes it is their fault. Whether it's the intuitive way to ask a search engine a question or just a way that has become intuitive through using googe, it's how people interact with DDG. It doesn't make a difference in any practical way if that intuition has been formed over time by interacting with Google. If you are inventing a new alternative to spreadsheets, most of your users intuitions will have been informed by excel. You'll need to live/deal with that,
- bsbechtel 11y ago
  I've been using DDG for almost 2 years, and have never, ever had this issue, unless you consider that when I search for something, I may not find it on the first query, I revise my search query, and search again. This revision process happens with Google searches too, and I'm not convinced I do it any more often, on average with DDG, than I did with Google. I also do lots of technical searches to find programming related information, which other commenters here mentioned was one area DDG was lacking.
rogeryu 11y ago
I totally agree. I tried DDG one or two years ago. It didn't last long. Google simply had better results. It took a lot less effort when using Google to find something useful. Several months ago I tried again. This time it's different. I just try harder. It takes effort. I still use Google, especially at work and for tech (computer) related stuff. For the rest DDG is my first choice and I'm getting used to it.
- AdamSC1 11y ago
  Hey rogeryu, Thanks for the feedback! You'll notice we've recently added a new feedback tool in the bottom right of the results page. If you fill out a search and it doesn't match your results (or if we really nail it) feel free to send along the feedback. In the feedback process you can opt in to how much detail about the search you share, and as always we never collect or save personally identifiable information. Users like yourself who have a foot in both ponds are the type of people we're really eager to hear from, obviously we're close to providing the experience you need but there are a few things for us to tweak and we'd love to figure them out!
luckydude 11y ago
I switched to DDG maybe 4-5 months ago and it mostly works fine for me. If I suspect it is wrong I !g google it and see if that works better. For me, the tradeoff is a win, I don't like being the product.

netcan 11y ago

I think an unavoidable conclusion is that while people may like privacy or some other benefit/function, they are rarely willing to take a hit on the main benefit/function (search results) to get it. It think this is an important thing to learn here as it applies in many cases. Maybe everyone complains about bad behaviour of their insurance company, but that does not mean they'll take a higher premium. Some people care about autonomy at work, but most will not take a lower salary to get it. People care about the ethics of manufacturing phones, but they won't take a phone that represents a compromise. There's something here about "consumer" psychology and choices that is hard to capture in the concrete terms economists like to formalize using. I think there are usually some very basic main points that people make decisions based on and some secondary points that people don't make decisions based on. The secondary ones may be the ones they talk about more or care about more, but not in a way that affects their choices.

Rainymood 11y ago
>Maybe everyone complains about bad behaviour of their insurance company, but that does not mean they'll take a higher premium Exactly. >There's something here about "consumer" psychology and choices that is hard to capture in the concrete terms economists like to formalize using. That some/most economists like to use. There is a huge field in economics (and econophysics and stuff) that focused on actual irrational behaviour (like trend-following, trying to time the market, predicting the 'mood' of the market). I find this a very interesting field of study. My god the rational agent model is so bloody stupid but it makes calculations feasible, that's literally the only reason we use it nowadays ... There is one thing you can't buy. You can't buy love* * with exceptions of course
- personlurking 11y ago
  Former Uruguay president Mujica has some thoughts on your last statement regarding things you can't buy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXMpQf2XyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXMpQf2XyE)
  - rogeryu 11y ago
    Thanks. That is a very valuable statement. Something to keep in mind!
- NoGravitas 11y ago
  And home-grown tomatoes.
- djsumdog 11y ago
  It's like people buying beats audio headphones.
- jerf 11y ago
  "My god the rational agent model is so bloody stupid but it makes calculations feasible, that's literally the only reason we use it nowadays ..." I find myself surprisingly often having to remind people that a world in which 64GB of RAM, 16 cores, a dozen terabytes of storage, and programming environments that let people harness all of these things, can all come out to a budget within reach of a middle-class individual who really wants it, is a VERY recent development, one still sinking in to the rest of the world. Rational agents have really always been known to be false, but good luck in 1980 getting an economist to write any sort of simulation of 100 million agents doing something slightly irrational to see what happens. They're going to face some pretty stiff competition for the supercomputer time that would represent... and the supercomputer in question would still be grossly underpowered compared to modern systems, so it would take some clever programming too. Even as clock speeds may have frozen, even in the last 5 years there has been a noticeable drop in the price of computing power. Beating up past economists for using the rational agent model is like getting beaten by people 50 years in our future for not just using AIs to solve problems, just because the phone in their pocket is populated by a couple dozen human-intelligent entities running locally, to say nothing of the civilization in "the cloud".
bsbechtel 11y ago
I think you're fundamentally right, when considering the benefits DDG vs Google offer today, at a static point in time. Remember, however, that the world is dynamic and constantly changing, and things like the Snowden leaks change how much we/consumers value privacy vs easy of use (and certainly factors that affect things in Google's favor can happen too!). I am guessing that most people who get screwed over by their insurance company, even once, are willing to pay a higher premium in the future (assuming they can afford it after suffering the financial damage caused by said insurance company refusing to pay). My original point was that things are changing, DDG is improving, and some things are purely perception issues. We like to talk about companies and markets in terms of battles, with concrete winners and losers coming out at the end of the day, but things are always changing. Google is the clear winner today (but also had a 10 year head start), but it may or may not always be that way.

personjerry 11y ago

Would it be possible for DDG to base their some result, distantly, off of some scrape of Google, thereby likely increasing relevance?

S4M 11y ago
That will not work for all types of search, like things related to the news (like "Paris terrorists"), and Google might block them (I think they block you for a while if you try too many searches in a short period of time).

trymas 11y ago

Well biggest problem for me with DDG that it does not track me or basic tracking does not cut it. Maybe I do not like some policies about users of big players, though some intelligence about the user makes service much better (extent of tracking is another question/rant). I am not from USA, and 30-50% of my searches are not in english and not some international terms. So when I search for something in my country and spelling of that something is the same with not what I am looking for completely on the other side of the globe, DDG becomes completely useless. Now, I know, DDG can specify where I am (or I can tell it), but the thing is that it still does not work, as I expect. Also DDG does not work as well (as Google) with some words/terms (e.g. python - snake/programming language). When I am browsing google will know that by `python` I mean programming language, and when my sister browses it means snake. Maybe you are right, that later it would do better, but for now DDG just does not cut it, and I have been trying to use it for probably 4 years. I try it once in a while and see it getting better, though no near as good as I want and alternatives offer.

marcosdumay 11y ago
DDG has a "local search" switch on the top right corner of your search results. It seems to know where you are, you just have to ask for it.
- trymas 11y ago
  > Now, I know, DDG can specify where I am (or I can tell it), but the thing is that it still does not work, as I expect. I know that this feature exists, but it does not cut it.
AdamSC1 11y ago
Hi Trymas, Thanks for the feedback - I'd be interested in hearing what language you're searching in. We've taken huge strides this past year in international language, and this is something that will continue to improve, but we always love to know where our weak points are! As far as the 'python' example, the reason you are experiencing this is two fold. Part of it stems from our approach to not filter bubbling users (http://dontbubble.us/ http://dontbubble.us/) and of course from the fact we don't record anything about you. You're totally right that if you search 'python' on Google you'd get info about the programming language, and if my biologist friend searched it on Google she'd see the snake. On DuckDuckGo that wouldn't be the case (in fact if you search python on DuckDuckGo you get the programming language and nothing about the snake) but a search like 'python food' would return results about the snake. When we remove filter bubbles and user profiles, search relies a lot more on context, and may expose additional results - it is a different style of searching and one we are trying to continue to improve - and we're really thankful for people who continue to give us a try and give feedback. We also know that sometimes other varieties of search are what you need and that's why we let you use !Bangs (https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang) via both our search bar and the URL bar if we're you're default, that re-direct your search to over 7000 different sites! Thanks for your continued support!

treerock 11y ago

I think there might be a deeper problem. One reason to use DuckDuckGo is to avoid the tracking and data collection that google does. But if that data collection allows Google to provide better search results, e.g. localised results tailored for the user, there is no way for DDG to compete (on search results at least).

DanBC 11y ago
People can't add their location in the search terms?
- trymas 11y ago
  Well lazy users (including myself) do not want to always add some text for their country/language/city. Basically, everyone not from US would need to add their location.
  - xomateix 11y ago
    You don't need to, you can activate the region button on the top right [0]. It's not the same as Google, but it's good enough in many cases. [0] https://duck.co/help/settings/regions https://duck.co/help/settings/regions
    - trymas 11y ago
      Yes, I do know about that but it still fails. E.g. I live in country `x` and set my region correctly. I search for `foobarbaz` which is some thing in my country. Though in country `y` there's also a thing called `foobarbaz` and apparently this thing in country `y` is either much more popular of that country is much bigger, so I can't find `foobarbaz` in my country, or I must look deeper into other pages. Google now works so good, that I do not need to scroll for 9 times out of 10 and almost never go to other pages, whereas with DDG probably 1/3 of local searches ended up in looking in other pages.
      - AdamSC1 11y ago

bobajeff 11y ago

Fundamentally what stops DDG from becoming just like Google, Bing and Yahoo when it does get as big as them? Remember how Facebook used to be all about user privacy?

bsbechtel 11y ago
>>Remember how Facebook used to be all about user privacy? Sorry, but no.
pgwhalen 11y ago
I don't think Facebook was ever really don't about privacy. Exclusivity, perhaps, but not privacy.

forgetsusername 11y ago

>the only way DDG is going to improve search results is by you using it regularly. For what company or product is that not the case? Unfortunately, most people (myself included) aren't interested in integrating inferior products into our lives with the hope that "one day" they might be as good. I decided to default to DDG last year to see how it was, and because my online privacy is worth something. I found the results lacking, having to Google things anyway, and eventually just went back to Google.

cakes 11y ago
I ended up giving DDG a chance as well this year and I had a similar experience. I recognize that part of it is probably how I'm conditioned but it's really frustrating to feel like I'm fighting the thing that's supposed to be helping me (which is how I felt). Hopefully it does improve over time, I do value my privacy, but I still ended up back with Google because it became too much of a hindrance.
AdamSC1 11y ago
Hi forgetsusername, The results have come along way over the past year, and we've also added a feedback tool that lets you share with us when you feel an answer was lacking. If you are interested in trying us again sometime I know we'd love to hear the feedback as we aim to provide a great search experience without sacrificing your privacy. We also have our "!Bangs" (https://duckduckgo.com/bang https://duckduckgo.com/bang) which allow you to re-direct your search directly to over 7000 providers including sites like Amazon, Twitter, Stack overflow and even Google. In those cases you find a result lacking you can quickly forward the search to another provider without manually navigating or switching your default. We understand there will be times you want to search other sites and so we make that easy to do. (Although we do hope to continue to lower the need for that in the future).
- johnsonjo 11y ago
  Bangs are honestly one of my favorite parts of Duck Duck Go and I actually found out about it from a friend a while after I switched from Google. It completely changed how I used DDG.

josteink 11y ago

> 2) I suspect that the difference in search results may partly be conditioned responses. We are accustomed to what we find through Google, so when DDG presents something that looks different It's not just that. When you search with DDG you may need to structure your search differently than you would do when searching with Google. People are just so accustomed to using Google-optimized search queries that they don't even consider that they are Google-optimized and thus they don't realize how unreasonable they are when they expect Google-optimized queries to yield equal or better results in non-Google products. Let me put it the other way: If I use my regular DDG search-terms in Google I get poorer results than I get in DDG, is that Google's fault?

netcan 11y ago
In a possible unfair but nonetheless relevant way, yes it is their fault. Whether it's the intuitive way to ask a search engine a question or just a way that has become intuitive through using googe, it's how people interact with DDG. It doesn't make a difference in any practical way if that intuition has been formed over time by interacting with Google. If you are inventing a new alternative to spreadsheets, most of your users intuitions will have been informed by excel. You'll need to live/deal with that,
bsbechtel 11y ago
I've been using DDG for almost 2 years, and have never, ever had this issue, unless you consider that when I search for something, I may not find it on the first query, I revise my search query, and search again. This revision process happens with Google searches too, and I'm not convinced I do it any more often, on average with DDG, than I did with Google. I also do lots of technical searches to find programming related information, which other commenters here mentioned was one area DDG was lacking.

rogeryu 11y ago

I totally agree. I tried DDG one or two years ago. It didn't last long. Google simply had better results. It took a lot less effort when using Google to find something useful. Several months ago I tried again. This time it's different. I just try harder. It takes effort. I still use Google, especially at work and for tech (computer) related stuff. For the rest DDG is my first choice and I'm getting used to it.

AdamSC1 11y ago
Hey rogeryu, Thanks for the feedback! You'll notice we've recently added a new feedback tool in the bottom right of the results page. If you fill out a search and it doesn't match your results (or if we really nail it) feel free to send along the feedback. In the feedback process you can opt in to how much detail about the search you share, and as always we never collect or save personally identifiable information. Users like yourself who have a foot in both ponds are the type of people we're really eager to hear from, obviously we're close to providing the experience you need but there are a few things for us to tweak and we'd love to figure them out!

luckydude 11y ago

I switched to DDG maybe 4-5 months ago and it mostly works fine for me. If I suspect it is wrong I !g google it and see if that works better. For me, the tradeoff is a win, I don't like being the product.