4 ms·

Signal, and in extension the other privacy-aware messengers (Threema etc), can not replace Telegram or iMessage because they lack basic features like multi-devi

by tazjin 11y ago

Signal, and in extension the other privacy-aware messengers (Threema etc), can not replace Telegram or iMessage because they lack basic features like multi-device sync. The hard problem of messaging has not been solved yet, what people should build is a service like iMessage but with the public key pool per account publicly auditable and verifiable.

gtf21 11y ago
Telegram has the same problem with "Secret Chats" which can only be read on the device from which they are initiated.
- tazjin 11y ago
  Yes, but the amount of people who actually use secret chats is tiny. It reminds me a bit of the CAP-theorem: Security, Device Sync and Usability. Pick two. My personal preference is solving DU, because I can do security aware stuff with GPG.
- izacus 11y ago
  People don't use Telegram (or whatsapp) for secret chats, but because it's a UX friendly messenger that replaces paid SMS services.
  - antocv 11y ago
    Well me and my friends use it for Secret Chats, so, you're wrong.
Asmod4n 11y ago
multi-device sync means you have to store the private key in the "cloud", or something else which could directly identify you.
- tazjin 11y ago
  No, iMessage for example generates a unique key pair per device and submits your public key to the key pool for your account. Devices can then sync old history using each other's keys and new messages will be encrypted for all devices. The problem is that the key pool is in Apple's hands. You cannot guarantee that they don't go and add a key do the pool and get all your messages anyways.
lorenzhs 11y ago
Signal has multi device sync now, and it's cryptographically secure. It works by sending Signal messages to the other linked devices. This enables Signal-Desktop (the Chrome app that is now in beta). Sync is only implemented in the Android client at the moment though.
- tazjin 11y ago
  That's quite literally multi-device >>sync<<, as in there is only one receiver and the rest is dependent on that. Seems like a low effort solution and would not satisfy my requirements, but it probably works for some people.
  - Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
    I receive messages on my desktop regardless of whether my phone is connected to the internet or not. Edit: just verified. Phone is in flight mode and chatting away on signal-desktop works just fine.
  - exo762 11y ago
    This is false. I've tested this possibility by turning off phone and Signal Desktop still receives messages. Description of plan around which protocol was build is here [0]. [0]: https://gist.github.com/TheBlueMatt/d2fcfb78d29faca117f5 https://gist.github.com/TheBlueMatt/d2fcfb78d29faca117f5
    - tazjin 11y ago
      That's slightly better but still cumbersome to set up and with the primary device as a SPOF. What does the recovery procedure look like if you lose the master?
      - exo762 11y ago
        From what I've read in docs posted above, identity key is copied from S-Android to S-Desktop. If you lose S-Android, there are two possibilities. 1) Your keys are safe (device was encrypted and/or you've wiped it remotely, whatever). In such situation you could be able to transfer keys from S-Desktop to new mobile. AFAIK there is no such functionality yet (remember, its Beta). 2) Your keys are not safe. In such case no recovery is possible. Notify all contacts about the fact that they should "reset secure session", forgetting your Signal identity and establish new Signal identity. Anyway, this is the only solution on market with secure chats and multi-device sync.
exo762 11y ago
Signal is currently beta testing "Signal Desktop" which introduces (somewhat limited) multi-device sync capability. I use it and I'm happy about experience. I basically don't need other communicators right now for close family and part of my friends. Occasional video call can be made using other platforms.
evook 11y ago
Since when was it possible to sync whatsapp over multiple devices? That unnecessary limitation really disgusts me, since I am the type who deletes his whole chat history weekly because I don't want to carry it around with me in case of another targeted stealing attempt. I'd love to integrate my whatsapp xmpp account into pidgin.
tomp 11y ago
> they lack basic features like multi-device sync I've never used multi-device sync, ever. Not on iMessage, Viber, WhatsApp, ... The only one that I use across devices is Skype, but I don't use it except for video.
hudell 11y ago
I just wanted MSN Messenger back. That was the only messaging app that worked well for me.
- RottenHuman 11y ago
  What I want is a messenger which has all my friends in it. Sadly at the moment that's only WhatsApp and Telegram to some extent. If only there would be some protocol or standard that would allow me to communicate across different providers. But unfortunately such a standard must be technologically impossible, otherwise it would be implemented and widespread already.
lqdc13 11y ago
This has to be a joke. Multi-device sync? Most people don't know what that is. They just want a pretty GUI, their friends to be on it, and an easy way to send videos/photos/voicemails/whatever. Granted, I've never wanted to send videos and sending photos works well on Signal right now. But until recently the GUI wasn't very polished.
- tazjin 11y ago
  Of course they know what that is - and actively use it - just think of Facebook messenger.
  - lqdc13 11y ago
    They might actively use it but not because they want to. In fact, Brazil's most popular chatting app that is recently banned there doesn't have multi-device sync. Hangouts does. Everyone could use hangouts, but not nearly as many people do.
    - swah 11y ago
      Using your phone number and address book to find contacts is what made it really easy for me. Also, iPhone users don't use Hangouts, but were somehow "forced" to use Whatsapp to talk to people on Android phones.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
legulere 11y ago
WhatsApp also lacks multi-device sync. The feature that made people adopt WhatsApp was saving money in contrast to using expensive SMS (which is the reason why it doesn’t have much adoption in countries with reasonable prices). Multi-device sync and privacy-awareness both are maybe reasons for a few individuals to switch but they both have problem with the number one feature of messengers: actually reaching other people. Why something gets adopted is way more dependent on soft factors than on technical factors, as long as the basic requirements are satisfied.
- eertami 11y ago
  >(which is the reason why it doesn’t have much adoption in countries with reasonable prices). Huh? I don't think this is correct. WhatsApp is huge in Europe, nearly everyone I meet prefers to use WhatsApp over SMS yet almost everybody has "unlimited SMS" plans.
  - legulere 11y ago
    The unlimited texting plans came after whatsapp in most countries. In Sweden seemingly nobody uses Whatsapp. Here in Germany there are many people with unlimited texting, but it's far from everybody.
atmosx 11y ago
Not even Telegram supports multi-device sync for 'locked' chats. So if you really care about security, multi-device sync is not a feature, it's a bug anyway. I know only 1 guy who uses Signal and he is an AT&T systems administrator and linux addict. He understands the difference. The rest, use either iMessage or Telegram and don't really care about the rest.

by tazjin 11y ago

gtf21 11y ago

Telegram has the same problem with "Secret Chats" which can only be read on the device from which they are initiated.

tazjin 11y ago
Yes, but the amount of people who actually use secret chats is tiny. It reminds me a bit of the CAP-theorem: Security, Device Sync and Usability. Pick two. My personal preference is solving DU, because I can do security aware stuff with GPG.
izacus 11y ago
People don't use Telegram (or whatsapp) for secret chats, but because it's a UX friendly messenger that replaces paid SMS services.
- antocv 11y ago
  Well me and my friends use it for Secret Chats, so, you're wrong.

Asmod4n 11y ago

multi-device sync means you have to store the private key in the "cloud", or something else which could directly identify you.

tazjin 11y ago
No, iMessage for example generates a unique key pair per device and submits your public key to the key pool for your account. Devices can then sync old history using each other's keys and new messages will be encrypted for all devices. The problem is that the key pool is in Apple's hands. You cannot guarantee that they don't go and add a key do the pool and get all your messages anyways.

lorenzhs 11y ago

Signal has multi device sync now, and it's cryptographically secure. It works by sending Signal messages to the other linked devices. This enables Signal-Desktop (the Chrome app that is now in beta). Sync is only implemented in the Android client at the moment though.

tazjin 11y ago
That's quite literally multi-device >>sync<<, as in there is only one receiver and the rest is dependent on that. Seems like a low effort solution and would not satisfy my requirements, but it probably works for some people.
- Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
  I receive messages on my desktop regardless of whether my phone is connected to the internet or not. Edit: just verified. Phone is in flight mode and chatting away on signal-desktop works just fine.
- exo762 11y ago
  This is false. I've tested this possibility by turning off phone and Signal Desktop still receives messages. Description of plan around which protocol was build is here [0]. [0]: https://gist.github.com/TheBlueMatt/d2fcfb78d29faca117f5 https://gist.github.com/TheBlueMatt/d2fcfb78d29faca117f5
  - tazjin 11y ago
    That's slightly better but still cumbersome to set up and with the primary device as a SPOF. What does the recovery procedure look like if you lose the master?
    - exo762 11y ago
      From what I've read in docs posted above, identity key is copied from S-Android to S-Desktop. If you lose S-Android, there are two possibilities. 1) Your keys are safe (device was encrypted and/or you've wiped it remotely, whatever). In such situation you could be able to transfer keys from S-Desktop to new mobile. AFAIK there is no such functionality yet (remember, its Beta). 2) Your keys are not safe. In such case no recovery is possible. Notify all contacts about the fact that they should "reset secure session", forgetting your Signal identity and establish new Signal identity. Anyway, this is the only solution on market with secure chats and multi-device sync.

exo762 11y ago

Signal is currently beta testing "Signal Desktop" which introduces (somewhat limited) multi-device sync capability. I use it and I'm happy about experience. I basically don't need other communicators right now for close family and part of my friends. Occasional video call can be made using other platforms.

evook 11y ago

Since when was it possible to sync whatsapp over multiple devices? That unnecessary limitation really disgusts me, since I am the type who deletes his whole chat history weekly because I don't want to carry it around with me in case of another targeted stealing attempt. I'd love to integrate my whatsapp xmpp account into pidgin.

tomp 11y ago

> they lack basic features like multi-device sync I've never used multi-device sync, ever. Not on iMessage, Viber, WhatsApp, ... The only one that I use across devices is Skype, but I don't use it except for video.

hudell 11y ago

I just wanted MSN Messenger back. That was the only messaging app that worked well for me.

RottenHuman 11y ago
What I want is a messenger which has all my friends in it. Sadly at the moment that's only WhatsApp and Telegram to some extent. If only there would be some protocol or standard that would allow me to communicate across different providers. But unfortunately such a standard must be technologically impossible, otherwise it would be implemented and widespread already.

lqdc13 11y ago

This has to be a joke. Multi-device sync? Most people don't know what that is. They just want a pretty GUI, their friends to be on it, and an easy way to send videos/photos/voicemails/whatever. Granted, I've never wanted to send videos and sending photos works well on Signal right now. But until recently the GUI wasn't very polished.

tazjin 11y ago
Of course they know what that is - and actively use it - just think of Facebook messenger.
- lqdc13 11y ago
  They might actively use it but not because they want to. In fact, Brazil's most popular chatting app that is recently banned there doesn't have multi-device sync. Hangouts does. Everyone could use hangouts, but not nearly as many people do.
  - swah 11y ago
    Using your phone number and address book to find contacts is what made it really easy for me. Also, iPhone users don't use Hangouts, but were somehow "forced" to use Whatsapp to talk to people on Android phones.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

legulere 11y ago

WhatsApp also lacks multi-device sync. The feature that made people adopt WhatsApp was saving money in contrast to using expensive SMS (which is the reason why it doesn’t have much adoption in countries with reasonable prices). Multi-device sync and privacy-awareness both are maybe reasons for a few individuals to switch but they both have problem with the number one feature of messengers: actually reaching other people. Why something gets adopted is way more dependent on soft factors than on technical factors, as long as the basic requirements are satisfied.

eertami 11y ago
>(which is the reason why it doesn’t have much adoption in countries with reasonable prices). Huh? I don't think this is correct. WhatsApp is huge in Europe, nearly everyone I meet prefers to use WhatsApp over SMS yet almost everybody has "unlimited SMS" plans.
- legulere 11y ago
  The unlimited texting plans came after whatsapp in most countries. In Sweden seemingly nobody uses Whatsapp. Here in Germany there are many people with unlimited texting, but it's far from everybody.

atmosx 11y ago

Not even Telegram supports multi-device sync for 'locked' chats. So if you really care about security, multi-device sync is not a feature, it's a bug anyway. I know only 1 guy who uses Signal and he is an AT&T systems administrator and linux addict. He understands the difference. The rest, use either iMessage or Telegram and don't really care about the rest.