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>> Combine this with the use of tones, and you get a pretty complicated mess. You can't use tones to communicate things like irony, anger or doubt. You have to

by mchaver 11y ago

>> Combine this with the use of tones, and you get a pretty complicated mess. You can't use tones to communicate things like irony, anger or doubt. You have to play on volume. You're losing a lot of expressiveness and subtlety in the process. This seems a bit like linguistic relativity. Native speakers don't have problems with tones. It is a challenge for second language learners of Chinese who don't speak a tonal language. Likewise, stress patterns in English are a challenge for second language learners but native speakers don't struggle with it. There is a lot of word play in Chinese. Just because a syllable has a raising tone does not mean it is the exact same pitch as another syllable with a raising tone later in the phrase, rather the syllables follow the same pattern of starting from a lower pitch and go to a higher one. You can also make vowels longer or shorter. >> Things in Chinese are heavily relying on context. That's the case for most languages. What does 'hit' mean in English? He hit me. Give me a hit. That show is a hit. He hit a tree with his car. I hit a new high. The boss ordered a hit on him. Tomorrow we will be hit by a storm. They hit it off well. She hit on him. That hits close to home. Let's hit the road.

yen223 11y ago
Tones are to native English speakers what L's and R's are to native Japanese speakers. Because tones don't carry semantic information in English, we tend to ignore it, which leads to English speakers sounding really weird when speaking any Chinese dialect.
- talideon 11y ago
  It's not good to confuse your mother (mā) with your horse (mǎ).
- philh 11y ago
  Unless we're talking about different things - tones carry semantic information, just not the same kind as in Chinese. They indicate things like "I'm asking a question" and "I'm being sarcastic". This does make it hard for English speakers learning Chinese, but I don't think it's quite the same as L/R in Japanese.
Chathamization 11y ago
Indeed. Chinese isn't really more difficult so much as it's different. And the difference causes people to think it's difficult, which then becomes an excuse for poor results when teaching/studying the language. Though I will say it tends to be poorly taught, so I guess it's more difficult in that sense (people will struggle with anything that's poorly taught).
- agrand 11y ago
  And it's poorly taught because there is a lack of people who really master the two languages (Chinese + language X that is very different from Chinese), which is due to the fact that... ...the two languages are very different in the first place...
  - Chathamization 11y ago
    I don't think someone would need to be a master of both languages to greatly improve the way it's taught. For instance, one of the problems is that characters tend to be taught to foreigners in a completely bizarre manner; you end up learning many compound characters before you learn the component parts. Other issues include the small amount of Chinese in the course (lots of speaking in English about Chinese), the focus on things like grammar, and the idea that Chinese is so difficult that poor results are acceptable. I've seen a number of people with a low-level in Chinese develop self-study plans that were much, much more effective than class or text book I've seen.
mikeash 11y ago
> Likewise, stress patterns in English are a challenge for second language learners but native speakers don't struggle with it. This really is key. "Tones" are hugely important in English. A simple sentence like "I didn't steal your money" has at least five different meanings depending on which word gets stressed. Imagine trying to learn this stuff from scratch as a non-native speaker! How do you even teach that? Are there actual rules for it, or do you just have to figure it out? At least with Chinese, tones are just part of the pronunciation. A particular word (syllable, really) has a particular tone, and that's it.
- zhte415 11y ago
  > This really is key. "Tones" are hugely important in English. A simple sentence like "I didn't steal your money" has at least five different meanings depending on which word gets stressed. Is this in Chinese or English? I speak Mandarin (a bit of a Northeastern Accent, which the following is based on) and English. The idea that Mandarin does not express meaning via tones of individual words (despite being a tonal language) is not correct. It is simple emphasizing or changing the tone of a word which connects with changing the tone of all of the other words in the sentence. The example sentence: The 'I' or forcefulness, emphasizing the tone to exaggerate a word (choosing to starting a sentence with 'I' already suggests a self-centric perspective). For example: Deepening the 3rd tone for 'I' would exaggerate self; Raising the 3rd tone for 'I' would raise self questioning (often followed by a 可 but not necessary in speech and written context) or self-perspective (no 可 just, a heightened tone, just like English, but adding a 可 in in a rising tone emphasise this a lot); 'didn't' 没 a third tone (down-up) but the level of the single down-up is indecipherable compared to the difference of down-up depending on context. Rising again suggesting innocence and question asking, to a complete deletion of the rising part for complete denial. 3rd tones are a pain as they traditionally get augmented by tones before and after them, but the differentiation between the three possessive 'de's also got eliminated from examinations a few years back (的 adjective possessive, 得 verb possessive, 地 place possessive - not sure if this is a good thing). 'steal' again could probably go all over the place (flat short tone trying, for example, a child denying stealing chocolate to sound cute) to a rising tone giving denial, to a falling tone signalling finality. 'Your' 你 or 你的. Without the 的 a definite difference in meaning. Without it, it is very informal. As a personal pronoun, all kinds of tricks can be performed in tone to turn it from prejudicial to friendly. 'Money' 钱 at this point in a sentence, especially one of intentional display of where stress is necessary, it doesn't matter. The tone of the sentence is already established by the combination of _augmented_ tones of individual words. No one speak to each other like a computer dictionary of perfect tones, just like in English no one does hand recognition like an Apple Newton in 1995. Chinese is a tonal language. But it is one that's spoken in sentences. Sentences make sense, static words don't. The greatest frustration I sometimes have is not understanding emotion or meaning, but when I flat-out say a noun or verb incorrectly because I screw up the tones, and then get met with confused looks. Tones crossed over words in modern Mandarin sentences are extremely close to English sentence tones. Speakers can choose to avoid this by using traditional (only 30-40 years ago commonplace) but today outside of official function, a little older (50+), or deliberate use, they don't. Sorry for the verbose answer, it's 2am here. I found I just had to "just have to figure it out" when landing on a plane a few years ago.

by mchaver 11y ago

yen223 11y ago

Tones are to native English speakers what L's and R's are to native Japanese speakers. Because tones don't carry semantic information in English, we tend to ignore it, which leads to English speakers sounding really weird when speaking any Chinese dialect.

talideon 11y ago
It's not good to confuse your mother (mā) with your horse (mǎ).
philh 11y ago
Unless we're talking about different things - tones carry semantic information, just not the same kind as in Chinese. They indicate things like "I'm asking a question" and "I'm being sarcastic". This does make it hard for English speakers learning Chinese, but I don't think it's quite the same as L/R in Japanese.

Chathamization 11y ago

Indeed. Chinese isn't really more difficult so much as it's different. And the difference causes people to think it's difficult, which then becomes an excuse for poor results when teaching/studying the language. Though I will say it tends to be poorly taught, so I guess it's more difficult in that sense (people will struggle with anything that's poorly taught).

agrand 11y ago
And it's poorly taught because there is a lack of people who really master the two languages (Chinese + language X that is very different from Chinese), which is due to the fact that... ...the two languages are very different in the first place...
- Chathamization 11y ago
  I don't think someone would need to be a master of both languages to greatly improve the way it's taught. For instance, one of the problems is that characters tend to be taught to foreigners in a completely bizarre manner; you end up learning many compound characters before you learn the component parts. Other issues include the small amount of Chinese in the course (lots of speaking in English about Chinese), the focus on things like grammar, and the idea that Chinese is so difficult that poor results are acceptable. I've seen a number of people with a low-level in Chinese develop self-study plans that were much, much more effective than class or text book I've seen.

mikeash 11y ago

> Likewise, stress patterns in English are a challenge for second language learners but native speakers don't struggle with it. This really is key. "Tones" are hugely important in English. A simple sentence like "I didn't steal your money" has at least five different meanings depending on which word gets stressed. Imagine trying to learn this stuff from scratch as a non-native speaker! How do you even teach that? Are there actual rules for it, or do you just have to figure it out? At least with Chinese, tones are just part of the pronunciation. A particular word (syllable, really) has a particular tone, and that's it.

zhte415 11y ago
> This really is key. "Tones" are hugely important in English. A simple sentence like "I didn't steal your money" has at least five different meanings depending on which word gets stressed. Is this in Chinese or English? I speak Mandarin (a bit of a Northeastern Accent, which the following is based on) and English. The idea that Mandarin does not express meaning via tones of individual words (despite being a tonal language) is not correct. It is simple emphasizing or changing the tone of a word which connects with changing the tone of all of the other words in the sentence. The example sentence: The 'I' or forcefulness, emphasizing the tone to exaggerate a word (choosing to starting a sentence with 'I' already suggests a self-centric perspective). For example: Deepening the 3rd tone for 'I' would exaggerate self; Raising the 3rd tone for 'I' would raise self questioning (often followed by a 可 but not necessary in speech and written context) or self-perspective (no 可 just, a heightened tone, just like English, but adding a 可 in in a rising tone emphasise this a lot); 'didn't' 没 a third tone (down-up) but the level of the single down-up is indecipherable compared to the difference of down-up depending on context. Rising again suggesting innocence and question asking, to a complete deletion of the rising part for complete denial. 3rd tones are a pain as they traditionally get augmented by tones before and after them, but the differentiation between the three possessive 'de's also got eliminated from examinations a few years back (的 adjective possessive, 得 verb possessive, 地 place possessive - not sure if this is a good thing). 'steal' again could probably go all over the place (flat short tone trying, for example, a child denying stealing chocolate to sound cute) to a rising tone giving denial, to a falling tone signalling finality. 'Your' 你 or 你的. Without the 的 a definite difference in meaning. Without it, it is very informal. As a personal pronoun, all kinds of tricks can be performed in tone to turn it from prejudicial to friendly. 'Money' 钱 at this point in a sentence, especially one of intentional display of where stress is necessary, it doesn't matter. The tone of the sentence is already established by the combination of _augmented_ tones of individual words. No one speak to each other like a computer dictionary of perfect tones, just like in English no one does hand recognition like an Apple Newton in 1995. Chinese is a tonal language. But it is one that's spoken in sentences. Sentences make sense, static words don't. The greatest frustration I sometimes have is not understanding emotion or meaning, but when I flat-out say a noun or verb incorrectly because I screw up the tones, and then get met with confused looks. Tones crossed over words in modern Mandarin sentences are extremely close to English sentence tones. Speakers can choose to avoid this by using traditional (only 30-40 years ago commonplace) but today outside of official function, a little older (50+), or deliberate use, they don't. Sorry for the verbose answer, it's 2am here. I found I just had to "just have to figure it out" when landing on a plane a few years ago.