6 ms·

Rumble: Twitter over sneakernet

62 points by pranfaha 11y ago

Animats 11y ago
That's cute. It's basically USENET over Bluetooth. Unfortunately, it can't use WiFi effectively, because Android doesn't allow symmetrical WiFi. You can only connect to an access point; handsets can't connect to each other. If two handsets are connected to the same access point, there can be communication. It does not, apparently, have encryption.
- david_shaw 11y ago
  > That's cute. It's basically USENET over Bluetooth. Or Tor, right? It seems like it's effectively a local onion router, albeit with significantly fewer possible sources. The problem with this, to me, is that if an adversary is targeting a certain user, they know that the actual source is in close physical proximity to whomever they actually track. That said, if they hooked this into a WiFi mesh network, things could get really interesting...
- biomcgary 11y ago
  I thought Android has p2p wifi (e.g., http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/wifip2p.html http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/wifip...). Is this not true in practice?
  - thescriptkiddie 11y ago
    Android's "p2p" wifi is an implementation of wifi direct, which has one device host an AP and the other connect as a client. Real ad-hoc mode is only possible on rooted devices, and google has been ignoring this issue for years. https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=82 https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=82
    - awqrre 11y ago
      It almost seems like Google went out of their way to disable ad-hoc Wi-Fi on Android. http://www.thinktube.com/index.php/tech-en/android/wifi-ibss http://www.thinktube.com/index.php/tech-en/android/wifi-ibss
jchrisa 11y ago
If you want to build something like this without writing the tricky code, Couchbase Lite has peer to peer sync. Our big vertical for that is currently point-of-sale but the applications are limitless. Here's an example photo share app: http://blog.couchbase.com/photodrop http://blog.couchbase.com/photodrop
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  This is really cool -- awesome work
- dbof 11y ago
  I admit I have only skimmed over the page, but...how does Couchbase create the connection? All I see is that you have to share a QR code with others, which is not really flexible compared to connecting ad hoc via Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.
  - jchrisa 11y ago
    In this app we use the QR code as an authentication token. The connection is handled via OS code. So BT or wifi, as you suggest.
VikingCoder 11y ago
Could this be used in a large crowd? Such as a protest, or a concert? What are the scaling limitations? How does a message decide to stop propagating - wouldn't it just circle around a large crowd indefinitely?
- Kadin 11y ago
  I'm also curious how they decide to expire messages out of the database. Presumably each device doesn't carry around every message ever sent since the beginning of time; that doesn't seem like it would scale well.
  - vox_mollis 11y ago
    And yet, everyone thinks bitcoin will scale just fine.
    - Pharaoh2 11y ago
      Not every bitcoin client needs to carry the whole blockchain for bitcoin to work.
      - VikingCoder 11y ago
        Step one, here's how you can implement this wonderful protocol! Step two... here's how you can hamstring the protocol, so you can use it in real life. Hey - are we losing any of the benefits of the ideal protocol when we hamstring it? SHHHHHHH!
jewel 11y ago
Check out LTE direct for a potential future technology that would have a much better range than wifi and bluetooth, which could potentially make this sort of thing workable.
- Tepix 11y ago
  You could also use the upcoming LoraWAN, 802.11ah, Bluetooth 2016 (with 400% range) technologies or even packet radio... but I think using the internet (with tor) whenever its available would be a smart move.
  - dbof 11y ago
    The problem with most technologies is that they are not supported by every mobile device or by every OS, or are even not supported by the hardware. For a network where a high number of nodes is relevant, wide-spread use is crucial.
etrautmann 11y ago
So this is like firechat with a buffer?
- dbof 11y ago
  This is like FireChat, but actually secure, does not leak data to any servers and works very well offline. And it is FOSS!
  - e12e 11y ago
    Maybe I'm skimming too fast, but it looks like apart from transport layer encryption (wifi/bluetooth), this uses just the nullCipher? https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/disrupted/rumble/util/EncryptedOutputStream.java https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/master/app/src/main... Hm, looks like group-chat uses shared secret, AES CBC without any form of authentication? So I guess it's not just using null cipher. I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to call it "actually secure", though? https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/262a8b0a618c9f90457f548cc81c359ca11e0d0b/app/src/main/java/org/disrupted/rumble/network/protocols/rumble/packetformat/CommandProcessor.java#L107 https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/262a8b0a618c9f90457...
    - dbof 11y ago
      I am missing your point. Do you consider CBC with random IV value insecure? Could you elaborate on that?
      - e12e 11y ago
        Well, as far as I can figure out, there's no authentication of the plain/cipher-texts? Just an attempt at blind decryption? [ed: encryption without authentication is almost always a bad idea - I'm not clear on what's the status of the various Android versions - but I think you should be able to use AES-GCM -- which of course is a stream cipher. Not sure if one would want to frame that in order to try to leak less info about message lengths or not. I suppose one might frame the plain-text messages in 1k blocks or something before encryption, and unwrap the padding after decryption (of an authenticated cipher).]
SapphireSun 11y ago
Usually, I don't make jokes here, but that name reminded me of this (fake?) app: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rumblr-tinder-fighting-app-launch-beta-nov-9-article-1.2427623 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rumblr-tinder-fight... Edit: Actual site http://app.getrumblr.com/ http://app.getrumblr.com/
tlack 11y ago
Any ideas on how concepts of identity, administration, and content ownership work in networks like this? Who decides to delete an inflammatory piece of content in a completely decentralized system? Can a fate like that which befell Usenet be avoided? I could suppose a system where identities are pinned to a key that is stored from the first time the user is identified (because a "packet" is seen from them). But how does that stop a determined attacker from broadcasting out his fake Alice identity, so that the real Alice can no longer spread their messages?
Marlinski 11y ago
I am the developer of this program and I just noticed this thread. If you have any question about how it works I will be happy to answer.

62 points by pranfaha 11y ago

That's cute. It's basically USENET over Bluetooth. Unfortunately, it can't use WiFi effectively, because Android doesn't allow symmetrical WiFi. You can only connect to an access point; handsets can't connect to each other. If two handsets are connected to the same access point, there can be communication. It does not, apparently, have encryption.

david_shaw 11y ago
> That's cute. It's basically USENET over Bluetooth. Or Tor, right? It seems like it's effectively a local onion router, albeit with significantly fewer possible sources. The problem with this, to me, is that if an adversary is targeting a certain user, they know that the actual source is in close physical proximity to whomever they actually track. That said, if they hooked this into a WiFi mesh network, things could get really interesting...
biomcgary 11y ago
I thought Android has p2p wifi (e.g., http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/wifip2p.html http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/wifip...). Is this not true in practice?
- thescriptkiddie 11y ago
  Android's "p2p" wifi is an implementation of wifi direct, which has one device host an AP and the other connect as a client. Real ad-hoc mode is only possible on rooted devices, and google has been ignoring this issue for years. https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=82 https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=82
  - awqrre 11y ago
    It almost seems like Google went out of their way to disable ad-hoc Wi-Fi on Android. http://www.thinktube.com/index.php/tech-en/android/wifi-ibss http://www.thinktube.com/index.php/tech-en/android/wifi-ibss

jchrisa 11y ago

If you want to build something like this without writing the tricky code, Couchbase Lite has peer to peer sync. Our big vertical for that is currently point-of-sale but the applications are limitless. Here's an example photo share app: http://blog.couchbase.com/photodrop http://blog.couchbase.com/photodrop

hardwaresofton 11y ago
This is really cool -- awesome work
dbof 11y ago
I admit I have only skimmed over the page, but...how does Couchbase create the connection? All I see is that you have to share a QR code with others, which is not really flexible compared to connecting ad hoc via Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.
- jchrisa 11y ago
  In this app we use the QR code as an authentication token. The connection is handled via OS code. So BT or wifi, as you suggest.

VikingCoder 11y ago

Could this be used in a large crowd? Such as a protest, or a concert? What are the scaling limitations? How does a message decide to stop propagating - wouldn't it just circle around a large crowd indefinitely?

Kadin 11y ago
I'm also curious how they decide to expire messages out of the database. Presumably each device doesn't carry around every message ever sent since the beginning of time; that doesn't seem like it would scale well.
- vox_mollis 11y ago
  And yet, everyone thinks bitcoin will scale just fine.
  - Pharaoh2 11y ago
    Not every bitcoin client needs to carry the whole blockchain for bitcoin to work.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      Step one, here's how you can implement this wonderful protocol! Step two... here's how you can hamstring the protocol, so you can use it in real life. Hey - are we losing any of the benefits of the ideal protocol when we hamstring it? SHHHHHHH!

jewel 11y ago

Check out LTE direct for a potential future technology that would have a much better range than wifi and bluetooth, which could potentially make this sort of thing workable.

Tepix 11y ago
You could also use the upcoming LoraWAN, 802.11ah, Bluetooth 2016 (with 400% range) technologies or even packet radio... but I think using the internet (with tor) whenever its available would be a smart move.
- dbof 11y ago
  The problem with most technologies is that they are not supported by every mobile device or by every OS, or are even not supported by the hardware. For a network where a high number of nodes is relevant, wide-spread use is crucial.

etrautmann 11y ago

So this is like firechat with a buffer?

dbof 11y ago
This is like FireChat, but actually secure, does not leak data to any servers and works very well offline. And it is FOSS!
- e12e 11y ago
  Maybe I'm skimming too fast, but it looks like apart from transport layer encryption (wifi/bluetooth), this uses just the nullCipher? https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/disrupted/rumble/util/EncryptedOutputStream.java https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/master/app/src/main... Hm, looks like group-chat uses shared secret, AES CBC without any form of authentication? So I guess it's not just using null cipher. I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to call it "actually secure", though? https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/262a8b0a618c9f90457f548cc81c359ca11e0d0b/app/src/main/java/org/disrupted/rumble/network/protocols/rumble/packetformat/CommandProcessor.java#L107 https://github.com/Marlinski/Rumble/blob/262a8b0a618c9f90457...
  - dbof 11y ago
    I am missing your point. Do you consider CBC with random IV value insecure? Could you elaborate on that?
    - e12e 11y ago
      Well, as far as I can figure out, there's no authentication of the plain/cipher-texts? Just an attempt at blind decryption? [ed: encryption without authentication is almost always a bad idea - I'm not clear on what's the status of the various Android versions - but I think you should be able to use AES-GCM -- which of course is a stream cipher. Not sure if one would want to frame that in order to try to leak less info about message lengths or not. I suppose one might frame the plain-text messages in 1k blocks or something before encryption, and unwrap the padding after decryption (of an authenticated cipher).]

SapphireSun 11y ago

Usually, I don't make jokes here, but that name reminded me of this (fake?) app: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rumblr-tinder-fighting-app-launch-beta-nov-9-article-1.2427623 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rumblr-tinder-fight... Edit: Actual site http://app.getrumblr.com/ http://app.getrumblr.com/

tlack 11y ago

Any ideas on how concepts of identity, administration, and content ownership work in networks like this? Who decides to delete an inflammatory piece of content in a completely decentralized system? Can a fate like that which befell Usenet be avoided? I could suppose a system where identities are pinned to a key that is stored from the first time the user is identified (because a "packet" is seen from them). But how does that stop a determined attacker from broadcasting out his fake Alice identity, so that the real Alice can no longer spread their messages?

Marlinski 11y ago

I am the developer of this program and I just noticed this thread. If you have any question about how it works I will be happy to answer.