12 ms·

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https:

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps/8Wx2gQ6z8up https://goo.gl/maps/8Wx2gQ6z8up https://goo.gl/maps/nAY5Kb73PkM2 https://goo.gl/maps/nAY5Kb73PkM2 https://goo.gl/maps/kTqzqGXQqmF2 https://goo.gl/maps/kTqzqGXQqmF2 https://goo.gl/maps/xWkvXRdACWR2 https://goo.gl/maps/xWkvXRdACWR2 As a Swede, I guess I didn't really realize how bad things really got in parts of the US. The last 50 years is just one crisis after another for this place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint%2C_Michigan#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint%2C_Michigan#History To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. It's all too easy to imagine the hopes and dreams that didn't play out they way they should have.

evmar 11y ago
The way I try to understand it is that the US is about the same size as the EU, has the same magnitude of population, and generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones.
- maratd 11y ago
  > generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. Based on what? > So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones. The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world. My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has one of the most dangerous cities in the whole country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey#Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey#Crime
  - ionised 11y ago
    > Based on what? It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. > The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      > It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. You seem to be mistaking our inability to come to a consensus on multiple aspects of these issues with a "fundamentalist opposition. It's unfortunate, but one of the defining aspects of American culture which has served us well over the years, our reliance on self determination and belief that hard work is rewarded, also* yields attitudes that if you aren't doing well then you aren't working hard enough or trying hard enough. Obviously neither of these views are entirely true, but confronting one affects the other, and getting people to reexamine their core beliefs is never easy.
    - hueving 11y ago
      >It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs Except for the welfare and social programs it has though. >What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics. Poster was implying about the mix of classes. It's easy for a rich country like Norway or Sweden to look down upon the poor sections of the US and scoff because the poorer parts of Europe are segregated into countries (e.g. Bulgaria). In the US every state has rich and poor sections (and even cities are that way).
    - maratd 11y ago
      > It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand. Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time. A full 66% of our federal budget is devoted to exactly these types of programs. That's over 2 trillion dollars. Every year. http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-programs http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-pro... Where are you getting your silly notions? > What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics. I wasn't talking about the country-level. Read what I wrote. The US is highly diverse on a street level. Rich live with the poor, side by side. This is not the case in Europe. In Europe, the classes are highly segregated. In the US, there is a very real attempt at having diverse neighborhoods with people of different backgrounds living side by side. Can you point to the same in the EU? And you want to talk about equality?
- ustherowapp 11y ago
  The US is significantly bigger than the EU, actually. http://www.whereisbobl.com/2015/2015-06-alps/lrg/phpRprQU3.jpeg http://www.whereisbobl.com/2015/2015-06-alps/lrg/phpRprQU3.j... (doesn't include Alaska, which is another 1/3 or so the size of the continental US.)
- kbenson 11y ago
  Twice the area, 65% of the population. There are vast swathes of land that are relatively sparsely populated, and also areas that have historically specialized in one industry or another. As those industries wax and wane, so too do the fortunes of many who live in those areas. This is an example of that, where there was a lot of manufacturing (primarily cars) in this area, and as those jobs have moved the populace is hit hard. That said, my understanding is that the area is brutally cold and wet, and that buildings and infrastructure there quickly goes to shit because of that unless it had regular thorough upkeep.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    Yes, the failure is not that a town decayed post-industrialization, it's that the federal government doesn't believe in supporting the people who are left behind after these busts. No re-training funds, no relocation support, housing placement, etc.
    - yawgmoth 11y ago
      It's pretty crazy to think that this will only be a more common occurrence in the future as jobs are eliminated. We should be figuring out how to solve that problem now, not the day after we've suddenly eliminated ten million careers. It's my opinion that we shouldn't try to retrain these people, but begin creating a society that can support lifestyles outside of the labor force. Unfortunately, the how of it is extraordinarily difficult to even consider.
    - thephyber 11y ago
      > No re-training funds Not exactly truthful. Most "free trade" recent agreements (past ~30 years or so) come with some sort of TAA support [1][2]. Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things? These are implied powers which the states have responsibility for. The Constitution does not reserve any of these for the federal government. You can't ignore human ego, denial, and the power of convention. All one-industry towns wane when their one industry either falls or moves. People complain, panic, and some even try to move to find better luck elsewhere. Ultimately, the largest anchor tends to be housing/property, which in the US tends to be paid for by long term debt. When a town loses its economic engine, demand to move there drops to near zero and the housing values fall underwater at the same time when people need to leave. I fail to see why the federal government should be on the hook for something like this. It would be subsidizing failure in a large way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance [2] https://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/nafta.cfm https://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/nafta.cfm
hellofunk 11y ago
And not far from Flint, the city of Detroit now has the world's largest collection of urban ruins, even greater in size and quantity than Rome. Amazing, truly, what you see in that part of Michigan. I lived 2 hours away from there in Central Michigan from end of 2008 - 2010. One of the sadder experiences I had was, one day while out on my daily walk around the neighborhood, there were a mass of people standing around one of the houses. I walked up to see what was happening, and the entire house and all of its contents had been abandoned without packing; little kids toys scattered on the floor where they played, wheel borrows, brooms hanging in the garage, plates on the kitchen shelves -- all being auctioned off one after another. They were literally taking them out of the cupboards and off the floor and an auctioneer (presumably hired by the mortgage owning bank) went down the sad road of dispensing of everything to anyone who wanted it. And actually there were three auctioneers -- front yard, back yard, and inside, gradually dismantling an entire family's life for anyone to see, and participate in.
- Ocerge 11y ago
  I spend a lot of time in Michigan as my company is based in Grand Rapids. It's almost like East and West Germany at times with how much better off Western Michigan is.
  - bpicolo 11y ago
    And yet Ann Arbor is in East Michigan, and it's one of the best towns in the entire country, probably largely thanks to the University.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      Oakland County is also fairly prosperous (a good portion of the migration out of Detroit was a few dozen miles north to Oakland County). I think pensions end up being a big factor. A city of 100,000 people is going to have some trouble keeping up the payments owed by the former city of 200,000. I guess as a society we need to remember to be really careful about promising compensation and then finding funds for it later (pensions were also a big factor in bankrupting GM and Chrysler).
Spien 11y ago
A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.
- boxy310 11y ago
  Central Indiana here. These photos are definitely hard-scrabble, but they're definitely not the worst I've seen even in a 5-mile radius.
- haswell 11y ago
  Or many of Chicago's neighborhoods on the south side.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    South side Chicago does not look like Flint. The streets are tree-lined, the worst buildings are boarded up, the houses are solid and most of them are brick bungalows. Many tens of thousands of people live there. The worst neighborhoods, like Englewood, are still kept up, and they're bracketed by middle-class neighborhoods like Chatham --- you might not feel comfortable in Chatham, especially if you're from lily-white Startuplandia, but it's a real neighborhood. South side Chicago is bad in a lot of ways --- it's a direct result of decades of overt racial segregation, and crime is absolutely out of control --- but it isn't Flint. A better analog would be Gary, Indiana (for people who don't know Chicagoland, Gary is a southeast suburb of Chicago).
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - logicalmind 11y ago
      I assume you are strictly referring to within the city limits. If you include the burbs, then check out Robbins: https://goo.gl/maps/ompv1Df5aqT2 https://goo.gl/maps/ompv1Df5aqT2
      - tptacek 11y ago
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.
- ryanSrich 11y ago
  Yeah I agree. You'll see similar scenes in the rust belt. I grew up in Upstate NY and this could easily be images from parts of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc.
  - rjv 11y ago
    I had the exact same reaction. These photos may has well be Upstate NY.
    - cylinder 11y ago
      Yeah this looks like upstate NY; you can see this just an 1-1.5 hour drive from Manhattan.
- vanderZwan 11y ago
  You missed the > As a Swede ... part
  - flubert 11y ago
    https://www.google.com/#q=swedish+ghetto https://www.google.com/#q=swedish+ghetto
- scott_karana 11y ago
  In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92, the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere. The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...
  - 11y ago
grobbles 11y ago
One unique aspect of the United States is that it's a huge country, where more than half of the land is livable/arable[1]. When an area isn't working, the economic forces that would revive it out of raw necessity just don't have the force that they do in many other countries, so areas can just hollow out as people move to other cities, to the endless suburbs, and so on. These pictures are primarily just abandoned areas, which in a country of some 5 million square kilometers of arable land just isn't that odd. [1] I'm from Canada and we often like to talk about how big this country is, but in reality most of us live huddled on the US border, and where 45%+ of the US is arable, just 7% of Canada is.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  Exactly. In one sense, it's like seeing a phone "abandoned" for a newer model. People don't live in the same place for centuries, because they don't need to.
up_and_up 11y ago
Those images don't really show 'decay' IMO. Here is a set of images that demonstrate very recent decay w/in Detroit: http://www.viralforest.com/you-can-see-the-rapid-decline-of-detroit-with-google-and-bing-street-view/ http://www.viralforest.com/you-can-see-the-rapid-decline-of-...
- andrelaszlo 11y ago
  Wow. You win.
ap3 11y ago
I don't get it - what is so bad about that street?
StillBored 11y ago
A few years ago before the oil boom in west Texas, I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways, and compare them with some of the little towns in a Mexico or some other place we consider poor. In many ways the ones in Texas look worse because the population was dying as well, houses with the roof caving in, main streets without a single open business, etc. I'm often surprised by the ways businesses behave. I was in northern MA last month at a tech company that had recently built a new office building. Not 5 miles away was the town center, which was once a manufacturing hub. In town there were a couple old brick textile factories that were absolutely beautiful old buildings sitting vacant. Those building seem like the exact thing i've seen a couple startups trying to simulate in an office building (hard wood floors, retro lamps, etc with modern open floor plan). Running a medium sized tech company out of a 200 year old textile factory says something, but no one apparently wants to say it. Sure there would be some remodeling expense putting in power/etc but I can't imagine its a huge fraction more than long term rental/ownership/maint of the crap buildings being thrown up that start to fall apart after 10 years.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways Is this a project you'd still be interested in?
- ecopoesis 11y ago
  The environmental cleanup is probably a huge part of the reason companies don't invest in the old mills. Besides the mundane things like lead and asbestos, they are also probably all sort of nasties left over from the dyes and other chemicals used in the old mills.
  - fludlight 11y ago
    These old factories are sometimes also designated as "historical", which limits the modifications that new tenants can make and greatly increases TI costs.
- samstave 11y ago
Shivetya 11y ago
I would suggest you avoid googling romanians in Sweden then. Plus you might find down trodden areas in your country as well. About every country in the world has areas where homes stand abandoned or are in disrepair, the difference mainly being does someone need a news story. having grown up in Youngstown Ohio I got a good first hand impression of what happens when the big jobs providers go away
paulddraper 11y ago
> I'm at a loss for words > To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. You're at a lost for words because of some old houses? At least there aren't gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning for days. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots-Stockholm-burns-rioters-battle-police-days-violence-immigrant-ghetto.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots... I'm not saying either US or Sweden is a nightmare; just that every place has its uglier side. If you're "out of words" for some old houses and some vegetation, you're probably missing a lot.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning That's quite the hyperbole compared to what actually happened.
  - rvense 11y ago
    Are you implying that the Daily Mail would exagerate something involving immigrants in Sweden? That's preposterous. /s
  - paulddraper 11y ago
    Multiple buildings (including two schools) and hundreds of cars were burned, at least one elderly man was killed. IDK of anything comparable in the US in this century. It's hyperbole only in that the area affected was small compared to the rest of Sweden, in the same way that one street is small compared to the rest of the US.
    - flubert 11y ago
      >IDK of anything comparable in the US in this century. https://www.google.com/#q=cars+burned+baltimore+riots https://www.google.com/#q=cars+burned+baltimore+riots https://www.google.com/#q=damage+from+ferguson+riots https://www.google.com/#q=damage+from+ferguson+riots
      - 11y ago
samstave 11y ago
"Last sold in 2011 for $535.00" I attempted to zillow that area. This is what I found: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-MI-48202/88723118_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-...
ksenzee 11y ago
Remember, we have a lot of land. What you're seeing is an area that was used in the past but not really being used right now, so it's essentially being left fallow. Those images are not evidence either for or against Flint being in crisis (which by all accounts it is). They're just proof that in most parts of the US, land is not at a premium.
fein 11y ago
Flint is more of a well known place for being an absolutely shattered industrial waste infested area, but parts of East Cleveland would make me want to live in Flint. https://goo.gl/maps/wMnbyeu5GeH2 https://goo.gl/maps/wMnbyeu5GeH2
- flubert 11y ago
  Just because of that one house that needs a paint job and some upkeep? Interesting that everyone appears to be able to afford satellite TV. You can surely find rougher neighborhoods than that.
  - fein 11y ago
    That was one house out of at least 4 that are abandoned on that street alone. Just clicking around on streetview shows you some pretty dismal images in the area.
    - flubert 11y ago
      That white house with the black Jeep out front? I don't think that one is abandoned. Or at least I'd strongly suspect that there are people living there. I don't see graffiti, or broken windows, or garbage strewn everywhere. The cars in the neighborhood seem to be newer and clean. This has the beginnings of an interesting HN poll. Put up a link like like that, and ask: "Take a look at this neighborhood, and tell us what you see" 1.) A horrible slum that is a disgrace and embarrassment to the U.S. It is an outrage that anyone would have to live in conditions like that in the third millennium. 2.) A quaint lower-income neighborhood. 3.) Doesn't seem that bad, not much different in character from where I grew up. 4.) Drug-dealers and prostitutes gotta live somewhere. 5.) I see a place with home-owners and mortgage holders, living the American Dream. 6.) We are doing a hell of a job as a society, if this is supposedly the worst of the worst.
      - fein 11y ago
        It started as 2 and 5. Abandoned houses peppering the neighborhoods continually degrades 5. Home values have plummeted in this area. 3, 4 currently apply (I'm from the area. Many of us in NEO have a conditions like this nearby), and if the lack of upkeep continues, is headed towards 1. 6 would qualify if you're comparing it 3rd world country poverty living standards or if you really want to be optimistic.
billylindeman 11y ago
Theres so much amazing history in Flint, Michigan. I lived there for ~5.5 years from 2008-2013. There's such an odd dichotomy of greatness and despair in the streets of downtown with such an eerie mystery about it. For example https://goo.gl/maps/AviSiJQBcEH2 https://goo.gl/maps/AviSiJQBcEH2 is the office and https://goo.gl/maps/jWHBmk51nxw https://goo.gl/maps/jWHBmk51nxw is the factory for the Durant-Dort Carriage company (which would eventually evolve into General Motors). And yet, on that same block theres abandoned houses and burned down lots. I lived 1 block from there while building a hardware startup (http://lava.io http://lava.io). Theres a great heritage of DIY and Entrepreneurship on the streets of flint. Even today there's a pretty cool group of entrepreneurs working there to found companies and make big change. I live in SF now, and it's interesting to draw parallels between SF circa today and Flint circa 1910. Once upon a time Flint was the Silicon Valley of our country, and now it's a wasteland long forgotten by the industry that built it. Definitely makes me wonder what some parts of the bay area might look like 100 years from now.
- DougWebb 11y ago
  There's a spot like that near me. https://goo.gl/maps/jSVLtA5qQix https://goo.gl/maps/jSVLtA5qQix is Thomas Edison's lab, now a museum and historic landmark. Right up the street on the next block is a huge fenced-off abandoned building complex. https://goo.gl/maps/gskvqGi89kz https://goo.gl/maps/gskvqGi89kz. The immediate neighborhood isn't bad, but within a few miles are the towns of East Orange and Irvington which have a lot of poverty and crime, and they are next to some of the rougher parts of Newark which are even worse. EDIT: I noticed a "STYLECRAFT CLOTHING" sign on that abandoned building, and found this: https://books.google.com/books?id=jNwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA302&ots=iM6j6z_jad&dq=stylecraft%20clothing%20main%20st%20orange%20nj&pg=PA302#v=onepage&q=stylecraft%20clothing%20main%20st%20orange%20nj&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jNwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA302&ots... It's an ad from a 1952 issue of Popular Mechanics for "Furniture Repair Kit". Neat.
zmccomb91 11y ago
I am from flint. In your fifth link, if you turn around and see the building with the bright blue painting, that is a medical marijuana dispensary called Michigan compassion care center or something. About 1 mile from that is Kettering university one of the top flight mechanical engineering schools in the country. Also Michigan flint, Mott community college, and baker college are all within 5 miles of each other. I lived in flint and the greater flint area for the first 22 years of my life. Such a sad, sad place. My family worked at the GM plants there now they are abandoned buildings.
- schreiaj 11y ago
  Not just Mechanical Engineering. Their EE and Management programs are incredibly solid too. I graduated with a CS degree there a couple years ago too, haven't had too many issues. They also had a fair bit of R&D coming through there and a startup incubator being built when I was graduating. It's a sad place but there's some really cool stuff going on there between the universities.
  - billylindeman 11y ago
    I actually worked in that building for ~1.5 years. Theres a ton of cool startup stuff happening right around there thanks to Kettering and UM-Flint. The water situation seems to have dealt a pretty big blow, but I'm sure progress is still happening. If you haven't been back, I definitely recommend grabbing a bite / drinks downtown if you're ever in the area. Saginaw street is a much different place than it was 5-6 years ago.
    - schreiaj 11y ago
      I went back about 2 years ago for my brother's graduation (he was ME)and it seemed revitalized. Haven't been back since. Maybe I'll swing by sometime this year.
dracul104 11y ago
I know poverty is on a much larger scale in Flint, but honestly those streets don't look very different to the rougher areas in most towns I've been in.
fapjacks 11y ago
I am married to a Swede, and we had our wedding on my wife's family farm. My family came out for the wedding, and both my parents and grandmother had never been outside of the country (USA) before. It was a bit awkward that most of my relatives kept remarking "it is so clean here" whenever we went to a new place. Some of my wife's family has never been to the States, and so now they think the US is just a dirty craphole because of those remarks. They're not so wrong, though. Cities in the US have a special kind of indescribable grime and smell. Of course few places are as bad as they are in Flint, but there is definitely urban decay in many places.

evmar 11y ago

The way I try to understand it is that the US is about the same size as the EU, has the same magnitude of population, and generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones.

maratd 11y ago
> generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. Based on what? > So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones. The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world. My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has one of the most dangerous cities in the whole country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey#Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey#Crime
- ionised 11y ago
  > Based on what? It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. > The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. You seem to be mistaking our inability to come to a consensus on multiple aspects of these issues with a "fundamentalist opposition. It's unfortunate, but one of the defining aspects of American culture which has served us well over the years, our reliance on self determination and belief that hard work is rewarded, also* yields attitudes that if you aren't doing well then you aren't working hard enough or trying hard enough. Obviously neither of these views are entirely true, but confronting one affects the other, and getting people to reexamine their core beliefs is never easy.
  - hueving 11y ago
    >It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs Except for the welfare and social programs it has though. >What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics. Poster was implying about the mix of classes. It's easy for a rich country like Norway or Sweden to look down upon the poor sections of the US and scoff because the poorer parts of Europe are segregated into countries (e.g. Bulgaria). In the US every state has rich and poor sections (and even cities are that way).
  - maratd 11y ago
    > It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand. Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time. A full 66% of our federal budget is devoted to exactly these types of programs. That's over 2 trillion dollars. Every year. http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-programs http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-pro... Where are you getting your silly notions? > What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics. I wasn't talking about the country-level. Read what I wrote. The US is highly diverse on a street level. Rich live with the poor, side by side. This is not the case in Europe. In Europe, the classes are highly segregated. In the US, there is a very real attempt at having diverse neighborhoods with people of different backgrounds living side by side. Can you point to the same in the EU? And you want to talk about equality?
ustherowapp 11y ago
The US is significantly bigger than the EU, actually. http://www.whereisbobl.com/2015/2015-06-alps/lrg/phpRprQU3.jpeg http://www.whereisbobl.com/2015/2015-06-alps/lrg/phpRprQU3.j... (doesn't include Alaska, which is another 1/3 or so the size of the continental US.)
kbenson 11y ago
Twice the area, 65% of the population. There are vast swathes of land that are relatively sparsely populated, and also areas that have historically specialized in one industry or another. As those industries wax and wane, so too do the fortunes of many who live in those areas. This is an example of that, where there was a lot of manufacturing (primarily cars) in this area, and as those jobs have moved the populace is hit hard. That said, my understanding is that the area is brutally cold and wet, and that buildings and infrastructure there quickly goes to shit because of that unless it had regular thorough upkeep.
- cylinder 11y ago
  Yes, the failure is not that a town decayed post-industrialization, it's that the federal government doesn't believe in supporting the people who are left behind after these busts. No re-training funds, no relocation support, housing placement, etc.
  - yawgmoth 11y ago
    It's pretty crazy to think that this will only be a more common occurrence in the future as jobs are eliminated. We should be figuring out how to solve that problem now, not the day after we've suddenly eliminated ten million careers. It's my opinion that we shouldn't try to retrain these people, but begin creating a society that can support lifestyles outside of the labor force. Unfortunately, the how of it is extraordinarily difficult to even consider.
  - thephyber 11y ago
    > No re-training funds Not exactly truthful. Most "free trade" recent agreements (past ~30 years or so) come with some sort of TAA support [1][2]. Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things? These are implied powers which the states have responsibility for. The Constitution does not reserve any of these for the federal government. You can't ignore human ego, denial, and the power of convention. All one-industry towns wane when their one industry either falls or moves. People complain, panic, and some even try to move to find better luck elsewhere. Ultimately, the largest anchor tends to be housing/property, which in the US tends to be paid for by long term debt. When a town loses its economic engine, demand to move there drops to near zero and the housing values fall underwater at the same time when people need to leave. I fail to see why the federal government should be on the hook for something like this. It would be subsidizing failure in a large way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance [2] https://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/nafta.cfm https://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/nafta.cfm

hellofunk 11y ago

And not far from Flint, the city of Detroit now has the world's largest collection of urban ruins, even greater in size and quantity than Rome. Amazing, truly, what you see in that part of Michigan. I lived 2 hours away from there in Central Michigan from end of 2008 - 2010. One of the sadder experiences I had was, one day while out on my daily walk around the neighborhood, there were a mass of people standing around one of the houses. I walked up to see what was happening, and the entire house and all of its contents had been abandoned without packing; little kids toys scattered on the floor where they played, wheel borrows, brooms hanging in the garage, plates on the kitchen shelves -- all being auctioned off one after another. They were literally taking them out of the cupboards and off the floor and an auctioneer (presumably hired by the mortgage owning bank) went down the sad road of dispensing of everything to anyone who wanted it. And actually there were three auctioneers -- front yard, back yard, and inside, gradually dismantling an entire family's life for anyone to see, and participate in.

Ocerge 11y ago
I spend a lot of time in Michigan as my company is based in Grand Rapids. It's almost like East and West Germany at times with how much better off Western Michigan is.
- bpicolo 11y ago
  And yet Ann Arbor is in East Michigan, and it's one of the best towns in the entire country, probably largely thanks to the University.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    Oakland County is also fairly prosperous (a good portion of the migration out of Detroit was a few dozen miles north to Oakland County). I think pensions end up being a big factor. A city of 100,000 people is going to have some trouble keeping up the payments owed by the former city of 200,000. I guess as a society we need to remember to be really careful about promising compensation and then finding funds for it later (pensions were also a big factor in bankrupting GM and Chrysler).

Spien 11y ago

A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.

boxy310 11y ago
Central Indiana here. These photos are definitely hard-scrabble, but they're definitely not the worst I've seen even in a 5-mile radius.
haswell 11y ago
Or many of Chicago's neighborhoods on the south side.
- tptacek 11y ago
  South side Chicago does not look like Flint. The streets are tree-lined, the worst buildings are boarded up, the houses are solid and most of them are brick bungalows. Many tens of thousands of people live there. The worst neighborhoods, like Englewood, are still kept up, and they're bracketed by middle-class neighborhoods like Chatham --- you might not feel comfortable in Chatham, especially if you're from lily-white Startuplandia, but it's a real neighborhood. South side Chicago is bad in a lot of ways --- it's a direct result of decades of overt racial segregation, and crime is absolutely out of control --- but it isn't Flint. A better analog would be Gary, Indiana (for people who don't know Chicagoland, Gary is a southeast suburb of Chicago).
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - logicalmind 11y ago
    I assume you are strictly referring to within the city limits. If you include the burbs, then check out Robbins: https://goo.gl/maps/ompv1Df5aqT2 https://goo.gl/maps/ompv1Df5aqT2
    - tptacek 11y ago

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

ryanSrich 11y ago
Yeah I agree. You'll see similar scenes in the rust belt. I grew up in Upstate NY and this could easily be images from parts of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc.
- rjv 11y ago
  I had the exact same reaction. These photos may has well be Upstate NY.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    Yeah this looks like upstate NY; you can see this just an 1-1.5 hour drive from Manhattan.
vanderZwan 11y ago
You missed the > As a Swede ... part
- flubert 11y ago
  https://www.google.com/#q=swedish+ghetto https://www.google.com/#q=swedish+ghetto
scott_karana 11y ago
In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92, the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere. The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...
- 11y ago

grobbles 11y ago

One unique aspect of the United States is that it's a huge country, where more than half of the land is livable/arable[1]. When an area isn't working, the economic forces that would revive it out of raw necessity just don't have the force that they do in many other countries, so areas can just hollow out as people move to other cities, to the endless suburbs, and so on. These pictures are primarily just abandoned areas, which in a country of some 5 million square kilometers of arable land just isn't that odd. [1] I'm from Canada and we often like to talk about how big this country is, but in reality most of us live huddled on the US border, and where 45%+ of the US is arable, just 7% of Canada is.

paulddraper 11y ago
Exactly. In one sense, it's like seeing a phone "abandoned" for a newer model. People don't live in the same place for centuries, because they don't need to.

up_and_up 11y ago

Those images don't really show 'decay' IMO. Here is a set of images that demonstrate very recent decay w/in Detroit: http://www.viralforest.com/you-can-see-the-rapid-decline-of-detroit-with-google-and-bing-street-view/ http://www.viralforest.com/you-can-see-the-rapid-decline-of-...

andrelaszlo 11y ago
Wow. You win.

ap3 11y ago

I don't get it - what is so bad about that street?

StillBored 11y ago

A few years ago before the oil boom in west Texas, I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways, and compare them with some of the little towns in a Mexico or some other place we consider poor. In many ways the ones in Texas look worse because the population was dying as well, houses with the roof caving in, main streets without a single open business, etc. I'm often surprised by the ways businesses behave. I was in northern MA last month at a tech company that had recently built a new office building. Not 5 miles away was the town center, which was once a manufacturing hub. In town there were a couple old brick textile factories that were absolutely beautiful old buildings sitting vacant. Those building seem like the exact thing i've seen a couple startups trying to simulate in an office building (hard wood floors, retro lamps, etc with modern open floor plan). Running a medium sized tech company out of a 200 year old textile factory says something, but no one apparently wants to say it. Sure there would be some remodeling expense putting in power/etc but I can't imagine its a huge fraction more than long term rental/ownership/maint of the crap buildings being thrown up that start to fall apart after 10 years.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways Is this a project you'd still be interested in?
ecopoesis 11y ago
The environmental cleanup is probably a huge part of the reason companies don't invest in the old mills. Besides the mundane things like lead and asbestos, they are also probably all sort of nasties left over from the dyes and other chemicals used in the old mills.
- fludlight 11y ago
  These old factories are sometimes also designated as "historical", which limits the modifications that new tenants can make and greatly increases TI costs.
samstave 11y ago

Shivetya 11y ago

I would suggest you avoid googling romanians in Sweden then. Plus you might find down trodden areas in your country as well. About every country in the world has areas where homes stand abandoned or are in disrepair, the difference mainly being does someone need a news story. having grown up in Youngstown Ohio I got a good first hand impression of what happens when the big jobs providers go away

paulddraper 11y ago

> I'm at a loss for words > To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. You're at a lost for words because of some old houses? At least there aren't gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning for days. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots-Stockholm-burns-rioters-battle-police-days-violence-immigrant-ghetto.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots... I'm not saying either US or Sweden is a nightmare; just that every place has its uglier side. If you're "out of words" for some old houses and some vegetation, you're probably missing a lot.

henrikschroder 11y ago
> gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning That's quite the hyperbole compared to what actually happened.
- rvense 11y ago
  Are you implying that the Daily Mail would exagerate something involving immigrants in Sweden? That's preposterous. /s
- paulddraper 11y ago
  Multiple buildings (including two schools) and hundreds of cars were burned, at least one elderly man was killed. IDK of anything comparable in the US in this century. It's hyperbole only in that the area affected was small compared to the rest of Sweden, in the same way that one street is small compared to the rest of the US.
  - flubert 11y ago
    >IDK of anything comparable in the US in this century. https://www.google.com/#q=cars+burned+baltimore+riots https://www.google.com/#q=cars+burned+baltimore+riots https://www.google.com/#q=damage+from+ferguson+riots https://www.google.com/#q=damage+from+ferguson+riots
    - 11y ago

samstave 11y ago

"Last sold in 2011 for $535.00" I attempted to zillow that area. This is what I found: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-MI-48202/88723118_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-...

ksenzee 11y ago

Remember, we have a lot of land. What you're seeing is an area that was used in the past but not really being used right now, so it's essentially being left fallow. Those images are not evidence either for or against Flint being in crisis (which by all accounts it is). They're just proof that in most parts of the US, land is not at a premium.

fein 11y ago

Flint is more of a well known place for being an absolutely shattered industrial waste infested area, but parts of East Cleveland would make me want to live in Flint. https://goo.gl/maps/wMnbyeu5GeH2 https://goo.gl/maps/wMnbyeu5GeH2

flubert 11y ago
Just because of that one house that needs a paint job and some upkeep? Interesting that everyone appears to be able to afford satellite TV. You can surely find rougher neighborhoods than that.
- fein 11y ago
  That was one house out of at least 4 that are abandoned on that street alone. Just clicking around on streetview shows you some pretty dismal images in the area.
  - flubert 11y ago
    That white house with the black Jeep out front? I don't think that one is abandoned. Or at least I'd strongly suspect that there are people living there. I don't see graffiti, or broken windows, or garbage strewn everywhere. The cars in the neighborhood seem to be newer and clean. This has the beginnings of an interesting HN poll. Put up a link like like that, and ask: "Take a look at this neighborhood, and tell us what you see" 1.) A horrible slum that is a disgrace and embarrassment to the U.S. It is an outrage that anyone would have to live in conditions like that in the third millennium. 2.) A quaint lower-income neighborhood. 3.) Doesn't seem that bad, not much different in character from where I grew up. 4.) Drug-dealers and prostitutes gotta live somewhere. 5.) I see a place with home-owners and mortgage holders, living the American Dream. 6.) We are doing a hell of a job as a society, if this is supposedly the worst of the worst.
    - fein 11y ago
      It started as 2 and 5. Abandoned houses peppering the neighborhoods continually degrades 5. Home values have plummeted in this area. 3, 4 currently apply (I'm from the area. Many of us in NEO have a conditions like this nearby), and if the lack of upkeep continues, is headed towards 1. 6 would qualify if you're comparing it 3rd world country poverty living standards or if you really want to be optimistic.

billylindeman 11y ago

Theres so much amazing history in Flint, Michigan. I lived there for ~5.5 years from 2008-2013. There's such an odd dichotomy of greatness and despair in the streets of downtown with such an eerie mystery about it. For example https://goo.gl/maps/AviSiJQBcEH2 https://goo.gl/maps/AviSiJQBcEH2 is the office and https://goo.gl/maps/jWHBmk51nxw https://goo.gl/maps/jWHBmk51nxw is the factory for the Durant-Dort Carriage company (which would eventually evolve into General Motors). And yet, on that same block theres abandoned houses and burned down lots. I lived 1 block from there while building a hardware startup (http://lava.io http://lava.io). Theres a great heritage of DIY and Entrepreneurship on the streets of flint. Even today there's a pretty cool group of entrepreneurs working there to found companies and make big change. I live in SF now, and it's interesting to draw parallels between SF circa today and Flint circa 1910. Once upon a time Flint was the Silicon Valley of our country, and now it's a wasteland long forgotten by the industry that built it. Definitely makes me wonder what some parts of the bay area might look like 100 years from now.

DougWebb 11y ago
There's a spot like that near me. https://goo.gl/maps/jSVLtA5qQix https://goo.gl/maps/jSVLtA5qQix is Thomas Edison's lab, now a museum and historic landmark. Right up the street on the next block is a huge fenced-off abandoned building complex. https://goo.gl/maps/gskvqGi89kz https://goo.gl/maps/gskvqGi89kz. The immediate neighborhood isn't bad, but within a few miles are the towns of East Orange and Irvington which have a lot of poverty and crime, and they are next to some of the rougher parts of Newark which are even worse. EDIT: I noticed a "STYLECRAFT CLOTHING" sign on that abandoned building, and found this: https://books.google.com/books?id=jNwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA302&ots=iM6j6z_jad&dq=stylecraft%20clothing%20main%20st%20orange%20nj&pg=PA302#v=onepage&q=stylecraft%20clothing%20main%20st%20orange%20nj&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jNwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA302&ots... It's an ad from a 1952 issue of Popular Mechanics for "Furniture Repair Kit". Neat.

zmccomb91 11y ago

I am from flint. In your fifth link, if you turn around and see the building with the bright blue painting, that is a medical marijuana dispensary called Michigan compassion care center or something. About 1 mile from that is Kettering university one of the top flight mechanical engineering schools in the country. Also Michigan flint, Mott community college, and baker college are all within 5 miles of each other. I lived in flint and the greater flint area for the first 22 years of my life. Such a sad, sad place. My family worked at the GM plants there now they are abandoned buildings.

schreiaj 11y ago
Not just Mechanical Engineering. Their EE and Management programs are incredibly solid too. I graduated with a CS degree there a couple years ago too, haven't had too many issues. They also had a fair bit of R&D coming through there and a startup incubator being built when I was graduating. It's a sad place but there's some really cool stuff going on there between the universities.
- billylindeman 11y ago
  I actually worked in that building for ~1.5 years. Theres a ton of cool startup stuff happening right around there thanks to Kettering and UM-Flint. The water situation seems to have dealt a pretty big blow, but I'm sure progress is still happening. If you haven't been back, I definitely recommend grabbing a bite / drinks downtown if you're ever in the area. Saginaw street is a much different place than it was 5-6 years ago.
  - schreiaj 11y ago
    I went back about 2 years ago for my brother's graduation (he was ME)and it seemed revitalized. Haven't been back since. Maybe I'll swing by sometime this year.

dracul104 11y ago

I know poverty is on a much larger scale in Flint, but honestly those streets don't look very different to the rougher areas in most towns I've been in.

fapjacks 11y ago

I am married to a Swede, and we had our wedding on my wife's family farm. My family came out for the wedding, and both my parents and grandmother had never been outside of the country (USA) before. It was a bit awkward that most of my relatives kept remarking "it is so clean here" whenever we went to a new place. Some of my wife's family has never been to the States, and so now they think the US is just a dirty craphole because of those remarks. They're not so wrong, though. Cities in the US have a special kind of indescribable grime and smell. Of course few places are as bad as they are in Flint, but there is definitely urban decay in many places.