31 ms·

Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

405 points by uptown 11y ago

a3n 11y ago
> Through continued demonstrations by Flint residents and mounting scientific evidence of the water’s toxins, city and state officials offered various solutions — from asking residents to boil their water to providing them with water filters — in an attempt to work around the need to reconnect to the Detroit system. Can you boil lead out of water, or does it just become more concentrated?
- alexbock 11y ago
  Distillation would essentially be doing the reverse, "boiling the water out of the lead", and that would work. But no amount of boiling in a open pot is going to remove lead from your water. It's hard to tell from the article, but the reference to boiling water might have been in response to the other issue mentioned, trihalomethanes in the water. As dissolved gases, boiling should help drive them out. (side note: a trihalomethane is more commonly referred to as a haloform, which is the family chloroform comes from)
  - darkr 11y ago
    Yup. Distillation should remove any heavy metal elements. It's not ideal to consume long term, as it removes most useful minerals and results in a hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming lead.
    - shabda 11y ago
      Can you explain what hydrogen-heavy means?
      - prklmn 11y ago
        The ratio of hydrogen to hydroxide is higher than it normally is. Water naturally dissociates into hydrogen and hydroxide ever so slightly in equal amounts under neutral conditions.
        logfromblammo 11y ago
        The auto-dissociation constant Kw is 10^-14 mol^2 L^-2. That means that concentration of hydronium [H3O+] ion multiplied by the concentration of hydroxide [OH-] ion is equal to the constant. In pure water, there are no other ions to change the balance, so you get 2 H2O <-> H3O+ + OH-, and each concentration is the square root of the dissociation constant. So 10^-7 mol/L H3O+ and 10^-7 mol/L OH-. The abbreviation "pH" stands for "power hydrogen", and is the negative log10 of the H3O+ concentration. 10^-7 mol/L H3O+ is pH 7, which is neutral. There is also a lesser-known term pOH, which is pretty much pOH + pH = 14 under normal conditions. But that water doesn't stay perfectly neutral for long. CO2 from the atmosphere dissolves into it, using CO2(g) <-> CO2(aq) K_CO2 = 2.0e-3, P_CO2 = 3.6e-4 CO2(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H2CO3(aq) K = 1.3e-3 H2CO3(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H3O+(aq) + HCO3-(aq) Ka1 = 2.0e-4 HCO3-(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H3O+(aq) + CO3--(aq) Ka2 = 4.7e-11 Solving the equilibrium gives you a pH of 5.65 (10^-5.65 mol/L H3O+). Some natural groundwater contains other dissolved minerals, including carbonates (limestone is CaCO3), which pushes the CO2 equilibrium in the other direction, making water more basic (higher pH).
    - alexbock 11y ago
      When you say that boiling results in acidic water, are you referring to the fact that pH-neutral water would be slightly more acidic than your (slightly basic) blood, or is this about dissolved CO2 or something else entirely?
      - darkr 11y ago
        It's due to absorbing C02 from the air whilst in gaseous form, which is then subsequently absorbed into the blood stream after consumption.
    - witty_username 11y ago
      @shabda Hydrogen heavy water means acidic water with high amounts of dissolved H+.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      > hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming lead. Yeah, but why would a water with slightly acidic pH be a major problem for health anyway? Numerous mineral waters sold on the market at not at pH 7 in the first place.
      - undersuit 11y ago
        Tooth Decay
        scott_karana 11y ago
        Well, at least we have solutions to that, unlike young-child lead poisoning.
        undersuit 11y ago
        Dimercaptosuccinic acid is a chelation agent that has been recommended for lead poisoning in children. The side effects seem less severe than most of the effects of lead poisoning. Definitely would prefer the tooth decay if we have to pick.
- dysfunction 11y ago
  No, according to the CDC: > Heating or boiling your water will not remove lead. Because some of the water evaporates during the boiling process, the lead concentration of the water can actually increase slightly as the water is boiled. http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/disease/lead.html http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/disea...
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    It depends on the lead salt type, but you could usually precipitate the soluble lead into an insoluble salt with simple ingredients available at home - then, you could remove the formed salt with a proper filter to remove most of the lead. http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/group4/lead.html http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/group4/lead.html
    - boxy310 11y ago
      Solid guide, but having to purify the water coming out of your tap defeats much of the purpose of having a city water supply.
      - ekianjo 11y ago
        I agree, but it's usually less expensive than buying bottled water.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Iron overdose is pretty dangerous, especially for children. http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/applications/4_2_LeadOralChelators.pdf http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/... Here's what WHO say: > Several chelating agents are effective in lead excretion, but the chelator of choice depends on the blood lead concentration, the patient’s symptoms and the environmental lead burden. Symptomatic patients should be hospitalized and chelation therapy with Edetate Calcium Disodium (CaNa2EDTA). CaNa2EDTA is an intravenous formulation that has been shown to be effective with British AntiLewisite (BAL, Dimercaprol) for removal of lead in patients with encephalopathy. Edetate calcium disodium, used alone, may aggravate symptoms in patients with very high blood lead levels. When clinical symptoms consistent with lead poisoning or when blood lead levels are greater than 70 micrograms/deciliter, it is recommended that edetate calcium disodium be used in conjunction with dimercaprol.24 British-Anti-Lewisite (BAL) or dimercaprol is a small molecule drug which will cross into cells and may prevent the worsening of clinical and biochemical status on the first day of EDTA therapy.25 Oral chelating agents are available for treatment of lead poisoned patients who have elevated blood lead concentrations and asymptomatic. In the Unites States, 2,3 Dimercaptosuccinic Acid (DMSA, Succimer) is the drug most commonly used. Other oral agents that may be used are DMPS (Unithiol) and penicillamine. Here's what CDC say about the pharmacology of chelating agents: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter7.htm#Pharmacology http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapte...
  - umanwizard 11y ago
    Off-topic, but what's the point of the "this is not medical advice" disclaimer? Your post is, patently obviously, medical advice.
    - flippant 11y ago
      It's a reminder to double-check with your doctor before taking the advice of a stranger on the internet.
    - 11y ago
- rsfern 11y ago
  You can't boil lead out of water, in the same way that you can't boil salt out of water. Metal extraction is a pretty hard problem. It seems that you can reduce the levels of the aforementioned trihalomethane compounds by boiling though. http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2013/959480 http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2013/959480
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
elorant 11y ago
The article failed to explain how the river got so toxic in the first place.
- DanBC 11y ago
  The article also fails to explain what kind of safety checks are normally done on US drinking water, and why those tests failed in Flint.
  - scott_s 11y ago
    I suspect none of that is explained yet because it is not yet known. Formally declaring "this is an emergency" is the first step in getting outside help, but I also imagine it's the first necessary step for starting an investigation into why it happened.
    - pionar 11y ago
      They know why it happened. That was the first step. They failed to put an anti-corrosive agent in the water, and it released lead from old pipes into the water supply.
  - notdonspaulding 11y ago
    There's no such thing as "US drinking water". I live on a farm where my water source is a well. I live next to a subdivision where all the residents are on a single shared well. That subdivision is next to a city which draws its water from a local lake. That city borders another city which has a system of wells to draw from the local aquifer. In our local region is another city which draws from a large river. About 2 hours away is the city of Chicago which draws from Lake Michigan. Each of those water systems operates independently. Each local body is responsible for determining the quality of their source and ameliorates it as needed. You can imagine that as you progress up the chain from my house to Chicago, this same process gets more and more sophisticated, but the basic process is the same. A city the size of Flint, even with their recent financial trouble, certainly has a water department which knows what the quality of the water it's putting out is. As for culpability, whatever else you may have heard about the US, we do hold people accountable when they knowingly put the public health at risk. In fact, the article even mentions that Flint's previous mayor was ousted over this very issue.
EliRivers 11y ago
I particularly like the comments to that article stating that only "liberals" believe the water supply is heaving with lead. The ridiculous political bun-fight infects everything, it seems. It's a mental disease.
- ionforce 11y ago
  I'm curious what excuse the anti-liberals come up with once their children are diagnosed with lead.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    They won't have to; they don't live in Flint. Flint is the 10th most liberal city in America by election results, according to https://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf https://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf.
  - topspin 11y ago
    Well I suppose if there were an "anti-liberal" that hadn't yet evacuated Flint they would blame the exclusively Democrat government for their obviously malfaisant administration of the Flint water supply.
  - flubert 11y ago
    Aren't places like Flint and Detroit pretty much poster children of progressive thought? I think anti-liberal people use them as case studies to attract converts, as in, look what you get if you have one-party Democratic rule for 50 years and strong unions, and other progressive notions.
    - yawgmoth 11y ago
      No way - those cities are a great example of the conservative, blue collar Democrat. Guns and unions!
    - babygoat 11y ago
      Where on earth did you get that idea?
ionforce 11y ago
What institutional failure led to this? It seems like this has been a long time coming. Why has the leadership of the area allowed this to happen?
- untothebreach 11y ago
  I can't tell you the exact reasons, but I would suspect it all comes down to money. I grew up just outside of Flint, went to school in the city, and worked there for a few years. There were winters where the city couldn't afford to plow the roads. They had to lay off most of the firefighters 5 or so years ago, along with much of their police force. It is a struggling area, maybe not quite as much as Detroit, but close to it.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Decades of decay of American industrial towns is the standard... Flint seems to have gotten unlucky with a double whammy from pollution.
- vblord 11y ago
  This isn't the first time they've had water problems. My grandmother's been boiling water there for years because of previous problems.
- paulmd 11y ago
  Flint's basically bankrupt and the state wants to delay the inevitable, so they installed an "emergency manager" with all the powers of mayor+city council (but accountable only to the governor). The emergency manager wanted to save money by using a local source of water instead of paying Detroit for water. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality basically knew that the water was so acidic that it would eat through the biofilm on the pipes and start leeching lead (and discussed as much in emails), and gave incorrect advice on measurements to the city to try and hide the problem. http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-dayne-walling-talks-about-flints-water-crisis-emergency-managers-and-the-state-government.html http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-day... http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis-virginia-tech-researcher-points-finger-mdeq http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis... http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_show_feds_told_state_of.html http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_sho...
cakes 11y ago
This story has been building up and up for a while now, Michigan Radio has several stories/reports/etc. http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water#stream/0 http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water#stream/0
rayiner 11y ago
What led to this particular situation was apparently rate hikes in the Detroit water system, which caused Flint to switch to using the Flint river as their water source last year. Beyond that, water systems all over the country are in bad shape. Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too low and there is a huge under-investment in water systems:http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-water/overview http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-water/...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- llamataboot 11y ago
  "Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too low and there is a huge under-investment in water." One does not necessarily follow from the other as water infrastructure can be subsidized through public investment that doesn't come strictly from billing for water.
- foolrush 11y ago
  Subtly attempts to frame the issue as public controlled water. A counterpoint might be that the companies with a vested interest in privitising water supplies have lobbied to choke out the public systems of funding. Perhaps instead of cutting deplorable tax breaks for big business, it would be more prudent to augment the public funds to prevent your citizens from getting lead poisoning? http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/jan/30/water-privatisation-worldwide-failure-lagos-world-bank http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/jan/30/wa...
  - rayiner 11y ago
    What big businesses are you talking about? Water in almost every U.S. city is provided by a municipal utility. E.g. in Flint, it's the Utilities Department: https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-center https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-cente.... Water rates are set by the city, and are just too low to cover modernization of the systems. Both the ASCE and the EPA have reported that investment in water systems is a fraction of what is required: http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-report-on-the-impact-of-under-investment-in-water-infrastructure-in-the-us-.html http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-report-o....
russdill 11y ago
The one thing I don't see is the lead levels of the water supply. Doesn't the EPA have limits on that and isn't it an easy thing to test? It is true that different water supplies will have different levels of contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc) but can all be within EPA limits. Switching to a water supply with a higher level of contamination will increase exposure. The medical study seems to look at the percentage of children below 5g/dL before and after the switch. It goes from 2% to 4%. So with the old water supply, a certain percentage of children were already being exposed to elevated levels of lead. Switching to a water source with higher lead levels will push more children who are being exposed to lead through other sources to above the 5g/dL mark. However, this would seem to indicate that the primary source of lead for these children above 5g/dL is something other than the water.
- russdill 11y ago
  (sorry, 5ug/dL, the study listed it as 5g/dL in a few places)
- russdill 11y ago
  Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply, so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    But why aren't the EPA / Water companies testing what comes out of the pipes?
    - monkbroc 11y ago
      The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality instructed Flint residents to flush their tap for 2 minutes before sampling the water which under-represented the amount of lead in the water. The EPA doesn't explicitly forbid flushing but doesn't recommend it. http://flintwaterstudy.org/ http://flintwaterstudy.org/
rickdale 11y ago
I'm glad to see this on HN. Flint is often a forgot about place in the world. I grew up there and now live outside of Flint. My dad was murdered there. But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part is, the people are still hell bent on supporting the companies that destroyed the town. Michigan in general is like this, its why they don't allow Tesla vehicle sales. Growing up my family owned a junkyard and the Flint river ran behind it. It was disgusting. Some of the guys would wade through it on their way two and from work. It was a shortcut, but you had to be a true animal to go that route.
- forrestthewoods 11y ago
  Really? I was just thinking the other day that I hear about Flint, Michigan all the time. Relatively speaking at least. It's not even in the top 300 for city size yet I hear about it relatively often. Certainly more than Las Cruces, New Mexico. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
  - jonknee 11y ago
    It's frequently referred to as an example of a wasteland, but not referred to as a place of possibility.
    - forrestthewoods 11y ago
      I swear there's something in the water in Flint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Michigan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Mic...
      - mhurron 11y ago
        > I swear there's something in the water in Flint. Lead apparently.
whitehat2k9 11y ago
Hmm, so in addition to their existing problems with acute lead poisoning, they now have to deal with chronic lead poisoning.
usefulcat 11y ago
Was looking at a map of Flint and noticed that the City of Flint Water Plant is right next to three metal scrap yards. https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%B040'14.8%22W/@43.056993,-83.6729557,751m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%...
- paulmd 11y ago
  It's more that Flint is an industrial town and Dow has been polluting the river for 120 years. It's also not direct pollution per se, it's that the river is so polluted that it's crazy acidic and it's corroding lead out of the pipes. A compounding factor is that it's got all kinds of funky bacteria stuff going on, which can also accelerate the corrosion process.
artlogic 11y ago
If you are interested in a detailed breakdown of everything that's been happening over the past year or so, I would suggest reading Michigan Radio's excellent coverage: http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water Full disclosure: my wife works as a reporter Michigan Radio, but generally doesn't cover Flint.
purephase 11y ago
Does anyone know the extent that the surrounding townships would be impacted by this? My parents live just outside of Flint, but the article only mentions that Flint is impacted.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  They could be. They should know if they buy water from Flint or not. If they don't buy water from Flint, without having looked into it, I would not expect the same pollution in ground water and the river. It also seems to be the case that the lead is coming from residential pipes: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-Flint_water_FAQs_500946_7.pdf http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-Flint_wa...
nashashmi 11y ago
I just took a look at the Map of Michigan. I realized after zooming into Flint to try to understand where the water was coming from that Michigan has many, many bodies of water scattered all around the place. Plus they are right next to the world's biggest lakes. And yet they never took care of their water supply? The one state with so much fresh water has little regulation on keeping water protected. I keep wondering why its been prophecied that the world in the end will wage war over water, not oil. And now I am beginning to understand.
- codyb 11y ago
  The reason it's been prophesied that the world in the end will wage war over water, not oil, is because most places in the world aren't surrounded by gigantic lakes of fresh water... not because Flint, MI has lead in their water supply.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  They are constructing a supply that will tap Lake Huron. Lakes Superior, Michigan and Huron are not especially polluted. The little inland lakes vary, but they end up having a lot of trouble with residential inputs (fertilizer runoff and (historically) sewage).
  - kdevrou 11y ago
    They already had a supply from Huron before. They disconnected from it about a year ago. Now they are hooked back up to Huron but much of the damage has already been done.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      They switched away from and back to Detroit as a water supplier. The switch to drawing water from Huron is in progress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority
- andor436 11y ago
  The water sources themselves are ok. (They could be much cleaner of course.) It's the aging and decaying infrastructure that brings the water from the source to a Flint homeowner's sink that is causing the issue. Lead is not in the source water; it's in the pipes, solder joints, fixtures, etc. When the State switched Flint over from Detroit's Lake Huron source to the Flint River, the water chemistry change was not correctly accounted for, and thus caused excessive amounts of lead to leach into the water on its way through the system.
paulajohnson 11y ago
So in ten years time someone is going to kill someone and blame it on the lead he was poisoned with when he was a kid. What would the just result be in such a case?
- vkou 11y ago
  No sweat off the backs of the officials responsible for this disaster.
yummyfajitas 11y ago
So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time offer of relocation assistance to an approved list of better places. The city government, and anyone who remains, are officially on their own. We've known Flint (and many similar cities) are doomed for decades. Why do we keep them alive as zombies rather than just help the humans and let the municipalities die?
- xd1936 11y ago
  The infrastructure for solid factory work is all still there. They just need a collection of companies from another industry to capitalize on the manufacturing assets there.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    What makes this area so good for manufacturing? (I've never been and I'm curious)
    - maxsilver 11y ago
      There's no environmental protections or regulations of any meaningful kind, property is almost free, and there's a significant labor force of people willing to work for minimum wages. It's not great for manufacturing. But it's not the worst place to do so.
      - Kristine1975 11y ago
        >There's no environmental protections or regulations of any meaningful kind, So it's either "have no money and get poisoned by lead in the water pipes" or "have money and get poisoned by the pollution of the factories?"
twoquestions 11y ago
Why should the Michigan state government care about this? Flint is a bunch of liberals, and the State government is Republican. The Snyder administration will certainly pay a heavy price for "giving free handouts" to the Democrats in Flint, all to remedy a problem that many Republicans don't believe exists. EDIT: wording
- TheGirondin 11y ago
  What is more toxic: Flint's water or this comment?
golergka 11y ago
The fact that this kind of isse will generate publicity after just a year, and that citizens will actually care enough to fight for their rights, and that mayor will feel fallout because of that — it makes me feel so jealous of US. Americans that cry about how the system "doesn't work" really don't have a clue about how this would turn out in other countries.
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  If the system truly worked, there would be no children with lead poisoning in the first place. That there are places on earth where things are worse doesn't change that.
  - golergka 11y ago
    I think that we can agree that the extent to which the system "works" is not a boolean value.
jostmey 11y ago
Someday Silicon Valley may be left in the same disarray and disrepair. Jobs can be outsourced and bright people lured away to work on new things.
- paulmd 11y ago
  Tech is somewhat harder to automate than manufacturing, at least. Silicon Valley also has a bunch of top-shelf universities nearby, which are a massive boost to local economies. The University of Michigan similarly boosts Ann Arbor's economy.
- chiph 11y ago
  At least SV is (mostly) taking care of their toxic waste problem.
cowardlydragon 11y ago
So... Flint is the new libertarian dreamland where no regulation exists?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
andyl 11y ago
Born and raised in Saginaw. The differences between black and white cultures in Saginaw were so vast - like two different nations living in the same town. Things fell apart, the center could not hold. Others have noted: west Michigan is not as bad. I think the success of Michigan cities is highly correlated with racial demographics - white towns doing OK, black towns not so much. Makes me wonder how Germany will absorb it's new influx. Funny enough Saginaw was settled by Germans, and white Saginaw was IMHO very culturally similar to the real Germany.
jhallenworld 11y ago
I've been trying to understand what the heck happened, since pH management has been standard part of water treatment forever. I mean did they not bother to consult with any water supply engineers first? It all looks like a game between Emergency Managers appointed by the governor to see who can save the most money fastest. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergency-manager-law-blame-flint-water-crisis/74048854/ http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergenc...
JuanaMango 11y ago
If what they say about lead levels decreasing IQ is true not there is not much left for Flint to do.

405 points by uptown 11y ago

a3n 11y ago

> Through continued demonstrations by Flint residents and mounting scientific evidence of the water’s toxins, city and state officials offered various solutions — from asking residents to boil their water to providing them with water filters — in an attempt to work around the need to reconnect to the Detroit system. Can you boil lead out of water, or does it just become more concentrated?

alexbock 11y ago
Distillation would essentially be doing the reverse, "boiling the water out of the lead", and that would work. But no amount of boiling in a open pot is going to remove lead from your water. It's hard to tell from the article, but the reference to boiling water might have been in response to the other issue mentioned, trihalomethanes in the water. As dissolved gases, boiling should help drive them out. (side note: a trihalomethane is more commonly referred to as a haloform, which is the family chloroform comes from)
- darkr 11y ago
  Yup. Distillation should remove any heavy metal elements. It's not ideal to consume long term, as it removes most useful minerals and results in a hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming lead.
  - shabda 11y ago
    Can you explain what hydrogen-heavy means?
    - prklmn 11y ago
      The ratio of hydrogen to hydroxide is higher than it normally is. Water naturally dissociates into hydrogen and hydroxide ever so slightly in equal amounts under neutral conditions.
      - logfromblammo 11y ago
        The auto-dissociation constant Kw is 10^-14 mol^2 L^-2. That means that concentration of hydronium [H3O+] ion multiplied by the concentration of hydroxide [OH-] ion is equal to the constant. In pure water, there are no other ions to change the balance, so you get 2 H2O <-> H3O+ + OH-, and each concentration is the square root of the dissociation constant. So 10^-7 mol/L H3O+ and 10^-7 mol/L OH-. The abbreviation "pH" stands for "power hydrogen", and is the negative log10 of the H3O+ concentration. 10^-7 mol/L H3O+ is pH 7, which is neutral. There is also a lesser-known term pOH, which is pretty much pOH + pH = 14 under normal conditions. But that water doesn't stay perfectly neutral for long. CO2 from the atmosphere dissolves into it, using CO2(g) <-> CO2(aq) K_CO2 = 2.0e-3, P_CO2 = 3.6e-4 CO2(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H2CO3(aq) K = 1.3e-3 H2CO3(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H3O+(aq) + HCO3-(aq) Ka1 = 2.0e-4 HCO3-(aq) + H2O(l) <-> H3O+(aq) + CO3--(aq) Ka2 = 4.7e-11 Solving the equilibrium gives you a pH of 5.65 (10^-5.65 mol/L H3O+). Some natural groundwater contains other dissolved minerals, including carbonates (limestone is CaCO3), which pushes the CO2 equilibrium in the other direction, making water more basic (higher pH).
  - alexbock 11y ago
    When you say that boiling results in acidic water, are you referring to the fact that pH-neutral water would be slightly more acidic than your (slightly basic) blood, or is this about dissolved CO2 or something else entirely?
    - darkr 11y ago
      It's due to absorbing C02 from the air whilst in gaseous form, which is then subsequently absorbed into the blood stream after consumption.
  - witty_username 11y ago
    @shabda Hydrogen heavy water means acidic water with high amounts of dissolved H+.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    > hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming lead. Yeah, but why would a water with slightly acidic pH be a major problem for health anyway? Numerous mineral waters sold on the market at not at pH 7 in the first place.
    - undersuit 11y ago
      Tooth Decay
      - scott_karana 11y ago
        Well, at least we have solutions to that, unlike young-child lead poisoning.
        undersuit 11y ago
        Dimercaptosuccinic acid is a chelation agent that has been recommended for lead poisoning in children. The side effects seem less severe than most of the effects of lead poisoning. Definitely would prefer the tooth decay if we have to pick.
dysfunction 11y ago
No, according to the CDC: > Heating or boiling your water will not remove lead. Because some of the water evaporates during the boiling process, the lead concentration of the water can actually increase slightly as the water is boiled. http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/disease/lead.html http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/disea...
- ekianjo 11y ago
  It depends on the lead salt type, but you could usually precipitate the soluble lead into an insoluble salt with simple ingredients available at home - then, you could remove the formed salt with a proper filter to remove most of the lead. http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/group4/lead.html http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/group4/lead.html
  - boxy310 11y ago
    Solid guide, but having to purify the water coming out of your tap defeats much of the purpose of having a city water supply.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      I agree, but it's usually less expensive than buying bottled water.
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- DanBC 11y ago
  Iron overdose is pretty dangerous, especially for children. http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/applications/4_2_LeadOralChelators.pdf http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/... Here's what WHO say: > Several chelating agents are effective in lead excretion, but the chelator of choice depends on the blood lead concentration, the patient’s symptoms and the environmental lead burden. Symptomatic patients should be hospitalized and chelation therapy with Edetate Calcium Disodium (CaNa2EDTA). CaNa2EDTA is an intravenous formulation that has been shown to be effective with British AntiLewisite (BAL, Dimercaprol) for removal of lead in patients with encephalopathy. Edetate calcium disodium, used alone, may aggravate symptoms in patients with very high blood lead levels. When clinical symptoms consistent with lead poisoning or when blood lead levels are greater than 70 micrograms/deciliter, it is recommended that edetate calcium disodium be used in conjunction with dimercaprol.24 British-Anti-Lewisite (BAL) or dimercaprol is a small molecule drug which will cross into cells and may prevent the worsening of clinical and biochemical status on the first day of EDTA therapy.25 Oral chelating agents are available for treatment of lead poisoned patients who have elevated blood lead concentrations and asymptomatic. In the Unites States, 2,3 Dimercaptosuccinic Acid (DMSA, Succimer) is the drug most commonly used. Other oral agents that may be used are DMPS (Unithiol) and penicillamine. Here's what CDC say about the pharmacology of chelating agents: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter7.htm#Pharmacology http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapte...
- umanwizard 11y ago
  Off-topic, but what's the point of the "this is not medical advice" disclaimer? Your post is, patently obviously, medical advice.
  - flippant 11y ago
    It's a reminder to double-check with your doctor before taking the advice of a stranger on the internet.
  - 11y ago
rsfern 11y ago
You can't boil lead out of water, in the same way that you can't boil salt out of water. Metal extraction is a pretty hard problem. It seems that you can reduce the levels of the aforementioned trihalomethane compounds by boiling though. http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2013/959480 http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2013/959480
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

elorant 11y ago

The article failed to explain how the river got so toxic in the first place.

DanBC 11y ago
The article also fails to explain what kind of safety checks are normally done on US drinking water, and why those tests failed in Flint.
- scott_s 11y ago
  I suspect none of that is explained yet because it is not yet known. Formally declaring "this is an emergency" is the first step in getting outside help, but I also imagine it's the first necessary step for starting an investigation into why it happened.
  - pionar 11y ago
    They know why it happened. That was the first step. They failed to put an anti-corrosive agent in the water, and it released lead from old pipes into the water supply.
- notdonspaulding 11y ago
  There's no such thing as "US drinking water". I live on a farm where my water source is a well. I live next to a subdivision where all the residents are on a single shared well. That subdivision is next to a city which draws its water from a local lake. That city borders another city which has a system of wells to draw from the local aquifer. In our local region is another city which draws from a large river. About 2 hours away is the city of Chicago which draws from Lake Michigan. Each of those water systems operates independently. Each local body is responsible for determining the quality of their source and ameliorates it as needed. You can imagine that as you progress up the chain from my house to Chicago, this same process gets more and more sophisticated, but the basic process is the same. A city the size of Flint, even with their recent financial trouble, certainly has a water department which knows what the quality of the water it's putting out is. As for culpability, whatever else you may have heard about the US, we do hold people accountable when they knowingly put the public health at risk. In fact, the article even mentions that Flint's previous mayor was ousted over this very issue.

EliRivers 11y ago

I particularly like the comments to that article stating that only "liberals" believe the water supply is heaving with lead. The ridiculous political bun-fight infects everything, it seems. It's a mental disease.

ionforce 11y ago
I'm curious what excuse the anti-liberals come up with once their children are diagnosed with lead.
- fixermark 11y ago
  They won't have to; they don't live in Flint. Flint is the 10th most liberal city in America by election results, according to https://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf https://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf.
- topspin 11y ago
  Well I suppose if there were an "anti-liberal" that hadn't yet evacuated Flint they would blame the exclusively Democrat government for their obviously malfaisant administration of the Flint water supply.
- flubert 11y ago
  Aren't places like Flint and Detroit pretty much poster children of progressive thought? I think anti-liberal people use them as case studies to attract converts, as in, look what you get if you have one-party Democratic rule for 50 years and strong unions, and other progressive notions.
  - yawgmoth 11y ago
    No way - those cities are a great example of the conservative, blue collar Democrat. Guns and unions!
  - babygoat 11y ago
    Where on earth did you get that idea?

ionforce 11y ago

What institutional failure led to this? It seems like this has been a long time coming. Why has the leadership of the area allowed this to happen?

untothebreach 11y ago
I can't tell you the exact reasons, but I would suspect it all comes down to money. I grew up just outside of Flint, went to school in the city, and worked there for a few years. There were winters where the city couldn't afford to plow the roads. They had to lay off most of the firefighters 5 or so years ago, along with much of their police force. It is a struggling area, maybe not quite as much as Detroit, but close to it.
cryoshon 11y ago
Decades of decay of American industrial towns is the standard... Flint seems to have gotten unlucky with a double whammy from pollution.
vblord 11y ago
This isn't the first time they've had water problems. My grandmother's been boiling water there for years because of previous problems.
paulmd 11y ago
Flint's basically bankrupt and the state wants to delay the inevitable, so they installed an "emergency manager" with all the powers of mayor+city council (but accountable only to the governor). The emergency manager wanted to save money by using a local source of water instead of paying Detroit for water. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality basically knew that the water was so acidic that it would eat through the biofilm on the pipes and start leeching lead (and discussed as much in emails), and gave incorrect advice on measurements to the city to try and hide the problem. http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-dayne-walling-talks-about-flints-water-crisis-emergency-managers-and-the-state-government.html http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-day... http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis-virginia-tech-researcher-points-finger-mdeq http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis... http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_show_feds_told_state_of.html http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_sho...

cakes 11y ago

This story has been building up and up for a while now, Michigan Radio has several stories/reports/etc. http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water#stream/0 http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water#stream/0

rayiner 11y ago

What led to this particular situation was apparently rate hikes in the Detroit water system, which caused Flint to switch to using the Flint river as their water source last year. Beyond that, water systems all over the country are in bad shape. Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too low and there is a huge under-investment in water systems:http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-water/overview http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-water/...

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llamataboot 11y ago
"Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too low and there is a huge under-investment in water." One does not necessarily follow from the other as water infrastructure can be subsidized through public investment that doesn't come strictly from billing for water.
foolrush 11y ago
Subtly attempts to frame the issue as public controlled water. A counterpoint might be that the companies with a vested interest in privitising water supplies have lobbied to choke out the public systems of funding. Perhaps instead of cutting deplorable tax breaks for big business, it would be more prudent to augment the public funds to prevent your citizens from getting lead poisoning? http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/jan/30/water-privatisation-worldwide-failure-lagos-world-bank http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/jan/30/wa...
- rayiner 11y ago
  What big businesses are you talking about? Water in almost every U.S. city is provided by a municipal utility. E.g. in Flint, it's the Utilities Department: https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-center https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-cente.... Water rates are set by the city, and are just too low to cover modernization of the systems. Both the ASCE and the EPA have reported that investment in water systems is a fraction of what is required: http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-report-on-the-impact-of-under-investment-in-water-infrastructure-in-the-us-.html http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-report-o....

russdill 11y ago

The one thing I don't see is the lead levels of the water supply. Doesn't the EPA have limits on that and isn't it an easy thing to test? It is true that different water supplies will have different levels of contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc) but can all be within EPA limits. Switching to a water supply with a higher level of contamination will increase exposure. The medical study seems to look at the percentage of children below 5g/dL before and after the switch. It goes from 2% to 4%. So with the old water supply, a certain percentage of children were already being exposed to elevated levels of lead. Switching to a water source with higher lead levels will push more children who are being exposed to lead through other sources to above the 5g/dL mark. However, this would seem to indicate that the primary source of lead for these children above 5g/dL is something other than the water.

russdill 11y ago
(sorry, 5ug/dL, the study listed it as 5g/dL in a few places)
russdill 11y ago
Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply, so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.
- DanBC 11y ago
  But why aren't the EPA / Water companies testing what comes out of the pipes?
  - monkbroc 11y ago
    The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality instructed Flint residents to flush their tap for 2 minutes before sampling the water which under-represented the amount of lead in the water. The EPA doesn't explicitly forbid flushing but doesn't recommend it. http://flintwaterstudy.org/ http://flintwaterstudy.org/

rickdale 11y ago

I'm glad to see this on HN. Flint is often a forgot about place in the world. I grew up there and now live outside of Flint. My dad was murdered there. But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part is, the people are still hell bent on supporting the companies that destroyed the town. Michigan in general is like this, its why they don't allow Tesla vehicle sales. Growing up my family owned a junkyard and the Flint river ran behind it. It was disgusting. Some of the guys would wade through it on their way two and from work. It was a shortcut, but you had to be a true animal to go that route.

forrestthewoods 11y ago
Really? I was just thinking the other day that I hear about Flint, Michigan all the time. Relatively speaking at least. It's not even in the top 300 for city size yet I hear about it relatively often. Certainly more than Las Cruces, New Mexico. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
- jonknee 11y ago
  It's frequently referred to as an example of a wasteland, but not referred to as a place of possibility.
  - forrestthewoods 11y ago
    I swear there's something in the water in Flint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Michigan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Mic...
    - mhurron 11y ago
      > I swear there's something in the water in Flint. Lead apparently.

whitehat2k9 11y ago

Hmm, so in addition to their existing problems with acute lead poisoning, they now have to deal with chronic lead poisoning.

usefulcat 11y ago

Was looking at a map of Flint and noticed that the City of Flint Water Plant is right next to three metal scrap yards. https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%B040'14.8%22W/@43.056993,-83.6729557,751m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%...

paulmd 11y ago
It's more that Flint is an industrial town and Dow has been polluting the river for 120 years. It's also not direct pollution per se, it's that the river is so polluted that it's crazy acidic and it's corroding lead out of the pipes. A compounding factor is that it's got all kinds of funky bacteria stuff going on, which can also accelerate the corrosion process.

artlogic 11y ago

If you are interested in a detailed breakdown of everything that's been happening over the past year or so, I would suggest reading Michigan Radio's excellent coverage: http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water Full disclosure: my wife works as a reporter Michigan Radio, but generally doesn't cover Flint.

purephase 11y ago

Does anyone know the extent that the surrounding townships would be impacted by this? My parents live just outside of Flint, but the article only mentions that Flint is impacted.

maxerickson 11y ago
They could be. They should know if they buy water from Flint or not. If they don't buy water from Flint, without having looked into it, I would not expect the same pollution in ground water and the river. It also seems to be the case that the lead is coming from residential pipes: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-Flint_water_FAQs_500946_7.pdf http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-Flint_wa...

nashashmi 11y ago

I just took a look at the Map of Michigan. I realized after zooming into Flint to try to understand where the water was coming from that Michigan has many, many bodies of water scattered all around the place. Plus they are right next to the world's biggest lakes. And yet they never took care of their water supply? The one state with so much fresh water has little regulation on keeping water protected. I keep wondering why its been prophecied that the world in the end will wage war over water, not oil. And now I am beginning to understand.

codyb 11y ago
The reason it's been prophesied that the world in the end will wage war over water, not oil, is because most places in the world aren't surrounded by gigantic lakes of fresh water... not because Flint, MI has lead in their water supply.
maxerickson 11y ago
They are constructing a supply that will tap Lake Huron. Lakes Superior, Michigan and Huron are not especially polluted. The little inland lakes vary, but they end up having a lot of trouble with residential inputs (fertilizer runoff and (historically) sewage).
- kdevrou 11y ago
  They already had a supply from Huron before. They disconnected from it about a year ago. Now they are hooked back up to Huron but much of the damage has already been done.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    They switched away from and back to Detroit as a water supplier. The switch to drawing water from Huron is in progress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority
andor436 11y ago
The water sources themselves are ok. (They could be much cleaner of course.) It's the aging and decaying infrastructure that brings the water from the source to a Flint homeowner's sink that is causing the issue. Lead is not in the source water; it's in the pipes, solder joints, fixtures, etc. When the State switched Flint over from Detroit's Lake Huron source to the Flint River, the water chemistry change was not correctly accounted for, and thus caused excessive amounts of lead to leach into the water on its way through the system.

paulajohnson 11y ago

So in ten years time someone is going to kill someone and blame it on the lead he was poisoned with when he was a kid. What would the just result be in such a case?

vkou 11y ago
No sweat off the backs of the officials responsible for this disaster.

yummyfajitas 11y ago

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time offer of relocation assistance to an approved list of better places. The city government, and anyone who remains, are officially on their own. We've known Flint (and many similar cities) are doomed for decades. Why do we keep them alive as zombies rather than just help the humans and let the municipalities die?

xd1936 11y ago
The infrastructure for solid factory work is all still there. They just need a collection of companies from another industry to capitalize on the manufacturing assets there.
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  What makes this area so good for manufacturing? (I've never been and I'm curious)
  - maxsilver 11y ago
    There's no environmental protections or regulations of any meaningful kind, property is almost free, and there's a significant labor force of people willing to work for minimum wages. It's not great for manufacturing. But it's not the worst place to do so.
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      >There's no environmental protections or regulations of any meaningful kind, So it's either "have no money and get poisoned by lead in the water pipes" or "have money and get poisoned by the pollution of the factories?"

twoquestions 11y ago

Why should the Michigan state government care about this? Flint is a bunch of liberals, and the State government is Republican. The Snyder administration will certainly pay a heavy price for "giving free handouts" to the Democrats in Flint, all to remedy a problem that many Republicans don't believe exists. EDIT: wording

TheGirondin 11y ago
What is more toxic: Flint's water or this comment?

golergka 11y ago

The fact that this kind of isse will generate publicity after just a year, and that citizens will actually care enough to fight for their rights, and that mayor will feel fallout because of that — it makes me feel so jealous of US. Americans that cry about how the system "doesn't work" really don't have a clue about how this would turn out in other countries.

Kristine1975 11y ago
If the system truly worked, there would be no children with lead poisoning in the first place. That there are places on earth where things are worse doesn't change that.
- golergka 11y ago
  I think that we can agree that the extent to which the system "works" is not a boolean value.

jostmey 11y ago

Someday Silicon Valley may be left in the same disarray and disrepair. Jobs can be outsourced and bright people lured away to work on new things.

paulmd 11y ago
Tech is somewhat harder to automate than manufacturing, at least. Silicon Valley also has a bunch of top-shelf universities nearby, which are a massive boost to local economies. The University of Michigan similarly boosts Ann Arbor's economy.
chiph 11y ago
At least SV is (mostly) taking care of their toxic waste problem.

cowardlydragon 11y ago

So... Flint is the new libertarian dreamland where no regulation exists?

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andyl 11y ago

Born and raised in Saginaw. The differences between black and white cultures in Saginaw were so vast - like two different nations living in the same town. Things fell apart, the center could not hold. Others have noted: west Michigan is not as bad. I think the success of Michigan cities is highly correlated with racial demographics - white towns doing OK, black towns not so much. Makes me wonder how Germany will absorb it's new influx. Funny enough Saginaw was settled by Germans, and white Saginaw was IMHO very culturally similar to the real Germany.

jhallenworld 11y ago

I've been trying to understand what the heck happened, since pH management has been standard part of water treatment forever. I mean did they not bother to consult with any water supply engineers first? It all looks like a game between Emergency Managers appointed by the governor to see who can save the most money fastest. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergency-manager-law-blame-flint-water-crisis/74048854/ http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergenc...

JuanaMango 11y ago

If what they say about lead levels decreasing IQ is true not there is not much left for Flint to do.