6 ms·

Plumber sues Ford dealer after truck with logo was used by extremists in Syria

79 points by tlrobinson 11y ago

rurounijones 11y ago
An interesting case where huge "mental and business damages" could easily be justifiable for what amounts to, in essence, minor cockup that had unfortunately wide ranging impact
- aikah 11y ago
  I find the "truck sold in Texas, reappears in Syria in the hands of extremists" thing much more interesting to say the least. People in the west always wonder where these nuts get their gear... well, at the market like everyone else...
  - EXDIR 11y ago
    Hello. I am the Director of NEPTA. Will you please reach out to Maverickheroes/Mindblowideas. The MRF APP needs to be completed. Thank you Kindly.
DiabloD3 11y ago
Honestly, I hope he wins. The Ford dealership that he sold his vehicle to cannot reasonably claim innocence, and has put this man's, and his family's, life in danger. Now, whether if the Ford dealership is legally liable, I don't know. However, they're basically screwed: they'll forever be remembered as the dealership that sold a vehicle to terrorists (no matter if that is technically true or not; they immediately unloaded it at a car auction like all dealerships do if they don't have a local buyer already lined up). I'd like to see an investigation, however, why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market. I know working computers are "recycled" (ie, dumped in a hole in the ground somewhere in China, India, or Africa), but I wasn't aware we did the same to vehicles.
- tlrobinson 11y ago
  "why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market" Presumably because someone overseas would pay more money for it?
- adrtessier 11y ago
  > I'd like to see an investigation, however, why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market. There is a massive amount of used cars in the US, and historically a large demand for these types of vehicles in Africa and the Middle East, where import taxes are lax and it's far easier to register a gray market vehicle than it is in the States. Trucks like this can fetch a much greater premium in those areas, and it is profitable for import/export companies to ship them there.
- shiftpgdn 11y ago
  It'll get settled out of court. Everyone knows car dealers are a bunch of slime balls and jury pools absolutely reflect that. I'm convinced it's part of the reason Tesla is doing so well.
- cmyr 11y ago
  There is a massive export market in Africa and the middle east for vehicles from North America, Europe, Japan, Australia, certainly other places as well. Most of the importing nations have far less restrictive (or any) restrictions on things like emissions and road-worthiness, and often have highly competitive local secondary markets. New vehicles are often much more expensive then they would be in western markets as well. Sell any low-cost used 4x4 vehicle in North America and you are likely to at least be approached by somebody intending to ship it to West Africa. East Africa is serviced by huge japanese auction sites such as beforward (http://www.beforward.jp http://www.beforward.jp). Ford and Toyota trucks are highly valued because they're the easiest to find spare parts for. High demand and low supply pretty quickly justifies the expense of shipping over a container and (maybe) paying import duties. What here needs to be investigated?
  - michaelt 11y ago
    What here needs to be investigated? Presumably we have a trade embargo with ISIS? I'm not an expert on military strategy, but if our aim is to bomb all their equipment, we should probably investigate the possibility of not selling them replacement equipment?
danielvf 11y ago
Note that he is not suing Ford the manufacturer, but a local dealership, and he is not suing them for the truck ending up with Jihadists, but because the dealership said they would remove the decals before selling the vehicle. Both being much more reasonable than the what the headline implies.
- tlrobinson 11y ago
  I'm not sure which headline you're reading, but the one here references both "Ford dealer" and "truck with logo" (I had to shorten from "truck with company logo" to fit Hacker News' 80 character limit)
  - munificent 11y ago
    It's easy to interpret the "after" in your headline as "because". But the real "because" is because the dealer didn't remove the decal, not because it ended up in Syria.
    - EGreg 11y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc edit: why the downvote?
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        I guess it's because this fallacy is not relevant to the topic. The association of "after" with "because" in cases like these is not about fallacious reasoning, it's because particular two things were chosen and put together to form a headline, and it doesn't make sense to create a headline like this if you only want to connect the two things with a temporal relationship (one came after another).
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > But the real "because" is because the dealer didn't remove the decal, not because it ended up in Syria. In a causal sense, the ending up in Syria seems to be a key actual cause, as does the fact that the decal was still present. Both are probably key points legally, too, as one is the alleged omission, and the other the alleged mechanism of harm, both of which are important to the legal action.
ourmandave 11y ago
I was going to ask who would believe a plumber from Texas would blatantly give/sell/donate his truck to ISIS. But a linked article says he has received 1000's of phone calls (some threatening). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/19/plumber-gets-threats-after-old-truck-complete-with-logo-shows-up-with-syria-jihadists/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/1...
- unethical_ban 11y ago
  Really. 1) A plumber in Texas wishes to publicly support ISIS with materiel and advertise NASCAR style, or 2) A plumber in Texas sold his truck to someone, and through a chain of sales, that truck ended up in Syria. I really despise the population sometimes.
- manachar 11y ago
  People are funny about what they believe. For many, seeing it on TV makes it true. Plumber has truck. Plumber's truck ends up on TV being used by ISIS. Ergo, Plumber must be supporter of ISIS. This is further harmed by it being surprising to people that trucks could be profitably shipped all the way to the Middle East.
  - sophacles 11y ago
    * This is further harmed by it being surprising to people that trucks could be profitably shipped all the way to the Middle East. * This really frustrates me - because its 7100 km from TX to Syria, while Japan is 10000 km away. If you include things like convenience of shipping, it's probably easier to move things between Syria and TX than Japan and TX (because there is a direct ocean route that doesn't involve major canals or going around pesky continents).
  - InclinedPlane 11y ago
    What's more likely is: "Plumber's brand becomes associated with ISIS." "Better not patronize that brand out of an abundance of caution to avoid people thinking YOU support ISIS." There's no requirement that people think that the Plumber's truck ended up being used by ISIS through anything other than an accident. But people are often very cautious and fearful and won't go out of their way to stand on principle, especially if, to them, it's something minor like which plumber they use.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
leroy_masochist 11y ago
Man, I feel really bad for the truck. Probably was looking forward to a new life being driven by some 19-year-old kid who scrounged up to save it and treat it with love....nope, got turned into the terrorist rapemobile instead.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  ISTM a sort of "Ridin' with Private Malone" country song could be written about this...
ourmandave 11y ago
This got me wondering about other companies that own branded vehicles. I found this on the UPS wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service#Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service#Vehicles When UPS ground vehicles reach the end of their useful service life and are no longer roadworthy (typically 20–25 years or more, but generally when the body's structural integrity is compromised), they are almost always stripped of reusable parts, repainted in household paint to cover up the trademark, and then sent to the scrapyard to be crushed and broken up. The only exception to this policy is when a package car is repainted white for internal use, usually at a large hub. Prior to scrapping, UPS trucks and trailers are assigned an ADA (Automotive Destruction Authorization) number and must be crushed under supervision of UPS Automotive personnel, which records the vehicle's destruction, as UPS does not re-sell any of its ground vehicles.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  This probably reduces the value of stolen UPS trucks.
- dingaling 11y ago
  25 years is astounding, that's impressive utilization of assets. In the UK, Royal Mail disposes of its delivery vehicles every three years when they become due for annual roadworthiness testing. And quite often the replacement vehicle is a different type entirely ( lowest-bid contracts ) so they have no commonality of maintenance. Seems like an expensive way to operate a fleet but they show no sign of changing.
FussyZeus 11y ago
The biggest problem of all is that anyone, literally thousands of people according to the source, would assume that an American company would provide branded vehicles to a terrorist group. At least the people in Idiocracy KNEW they would stupid and acted accordingly, puts them head and shoulders above a huge part of our population.
tw04 11y ago
This is either the second time this has happened, or this story is a rehash of something that happened a long time ago.
- qbrass 11y ago
  Pretty sure it's a later development of the same story. The first time was just the guy trying to clear his reputation.
nzp 11y ago
It's interesting how almost everyone, and certainly those who harassed our good plumber, sees the words "extremists in Syria", completely ignores what group it actually is (the name is there, it's not ISIS), and just assumes it's ISIS. Even a lot of people here just go with "it's ISIS". If only the Syrian War was that simple. This is actually a group[0] hostile to ISIS, although affiliated with Al-Qaeda. One other interesting thing, from the article, that seems ignored – this car was exported to Turkey. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar
scotty79 11y ago
Shouldn't he rather go after people who harassed him? That's where neutral information morphs into harmful action.

79 points by tlrobinson 11y ago

An interesting case where huge "mental and business damages" could easily be justifiable for what amounts to, in essence, minor cockup that had unfortunately wide ranging impact

aikah 11y ago
I find the "truck sold in Texas, reappears in Syria in the hands of extremists" thing much more interesting to say the least. People in the west always wonder where these nuts get their gear... well, at the market like everyone else...
- EXDIR 11y ago
  Hello. I am the Director of NEPTA. Will you please reach out to Maverickheroes/Mindblowideas. The MRF APP needs to be completed. Thank you Kindly.

DiabloD3 11y ago

Honestly, I hope he wins. The Ford dealership that he sold his vehicle to cannot reasonably claim innocence, and has put this man's, and his family's, life in danger. Now, whether if the Ford dealership is legally liable, I don't know. However, they're basically screwed: they'll forever be remembered as the dealership that sold a vehicle to terrorists (no matter if that is technically true or not; they immediately unloaded it at a car auction like all dealerships do if they don't have a local buyer already lined up). I'd like to see an investigation, however, why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market. I know working computers are "recycled" (ie, dumped in a hole in the ground somewhere in China, India, or Africa), but I wasn't aware we did the same to vehicles.

tlrobinson 11y ago
"why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market" Presumably because someone overseas would pay more money for it?
adrtessier 11y ago
> I'd like to see an investigation, however, why a perfectly working truck was shipped overseas and left the American market. There is a massive amount of used cars in the US, and historically a large demand for these types of vehicles in Africa and the Middle East, where import taxes are lax and it's far easier to register a gray market vehicle than it is in the States. Trucks like this can fetch a much greater premium in those areas, and it is profitable for import/export companies to ship them there.
shiftpgdn 11y ago
It'll get settled out of court. Everyone knows car dealers are a bunch of slime balls and jury pools absolutely reflect that. I'm convinced it's part of the reason Tesla is doing so well.
cmyr 11y ago
There is a massive export market in Africa and the middle east for vehicles from North America, Europe, Japan, Australia, certainly other places as well. Most of the importing nations have far less restrictive (or any) restrictions on things like emissions and road-worthiness, and often have highly competitive local secondary markets. New vehicles are often much more expensive then they would be in western markets as well. Sell any low-cost used 4x4 vehicle in North America and you are likely to at least be approached by somebody intending to ship it to West Africa. East Africa is serviced by huge japanese auction sites such as beforward (http://www.beforward.jp http://www.beforward.jp). Ford and Toyota trucks are highly valued because they're the easiest to find spare parts for. High demand and low supply pretty quickly justifies the expense of shipping over a container and (maybe) paying import duties. What here needs to be investigated?
- michaelt 11y ago
  What here needs to be investigated? Presumably we have a trade embargo with ISIS? I'm not an expert on military strategy, but if our aim is to bomb all their equipment, we should probably investigate the possibility of not selling them replacement equipment?

danielvf 11y ago

Note that he is not suing Ford the manufacturer, but a local dealership, and he is not suing them for the truck ending up with Jihadists, but because the dealership said they would remove the decals before selling the vehicle. Both being much more reasonable than the what the headline implies.

tlrobinson 11y ago
I'm not sure which headline you're reading, but the one here references both "Ford dealer" and "truck with logo" (I had to shorten from "truck with company logo" to fit Hacker News' 80 character limit)
- munificent 11y ago
  It's easy to interpret the "after" in your headline as "because". But the real "because" is because the dealer didn't remove the decal, not because it ended up in Syria.
  - EGreg 11y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc edit: why the downvote?
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      I guess it's because this fallacy is not relevant to the topic. The association of "after" with "because" in cases like these is not about fallacious reasoning, it's because particular two things were chosen and put together to form a headline, and it doesn't make sense to create a headline like this if you only want to connect the two things with a temporal relationship (one came after another).
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > But the real "because" is because the dealer didn't remove the decal, not because it ended up in Syria. In a causal sense, the ending up in Syria seems to be a key actual cause, as does the fact that the decal was still present. Both are probably key points legally, too, as one is the alleged omission, and the other the alleged mechanism of harm, both of which are important to the legal action.

ourmandave 11y ago

I was going to ask who would believe a plumber from Texas would blatantly give/sell/donate his truck to ISIS. But a linked article says he has received 1000's of phone calls (some threatening). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/19/plumber-gets-threats-after-old-truck-complete-with-logo-shows-up-with-syria-jihadists/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/1...

unethical_ban 11y ago
Really. 1) A plumber in Texas wishes to publicly support ISIS with materiel and advertise NASCAR style, or 2) A plumber in Texas sold his truck to someone, and through a chain of sales, that truck ended up in Syria. I really despise the population sometimes.
manachar 11y ago
People are funny about what they believe. For many, seeing it on TV makes it true. Plumber has truck. Plumber's truck ends up on TV being used by ISIS. Ergo, Plumber must be supporter of ISIS. This is further harmed by it being surprising to people that trucks could be profitably shipped all the way to the Middle East.
- sophacles 11y ago
  * This is further harmed by it being surprising to people that trucks could be profitably shipped all the way to the Middle East. * This really frustrates me - because its 7100 km from TX to Syria, while Japan is 10000 km away. If you include things like convenience of shipping, it's probably easier to move things between Syria and TX than Japan and TX (because there is a direct ocean route that doesn't involve major canals or going around pesky continents).
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  What's more likely is: "Plumber's brand becomes associated with ISIS." "Better not patronize that brand out of an abundance of caution to avoid people thinking YOU support ISIS." There's no requirement that people think that the Plumber's truck ended up being used by ISIS through anything other than an accident. But people are often very cautious and fearful and won't go out of their way to stand on principle, especially if, to them, it's something minor like which plumber they use.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

leroy_masochist 11y ago

Man, I feel really bad for the truck. Probably was looking forward to a new life being driven by some 19-year-old kid who scrounged up to save it and treat it with love....nope, got turned into the terrorist rapemobile instead.

jessaustin 11y ago
ISTM a sort of "Ridin' with Private Malone" country song could be written about this...

ourmandave 11y ago

This got me wondering about other companies that own branded vehicles. I found this on the UPS wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service#Vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service#Vehicles When UPS ground vehicles reach the end of their useful service life and are no longer roadworthy (typically 20–25 years or more, but generally when the body's structural integrity is compromised), they are almost always stripped of reusable parts, repainted in household paint to cover up the trademark, and then sent to the scrapyard to be crushed and broken up. The only exception to this policy is when a package car is repainted white for internal use, usually at a large hub. Prior to scrapping, UPS trucks and trailers are assigned an ADA (Automotive Destruction Authorization) number and must be crushed under supervision of UPS Automotive personnel, which records the vehicle's destruction, as UPS does not re-sell any of its ground vehicles.

jessaustin 11y ago
This probably reduces the value of stolen UPS trucks.
dingaling 11y ago
25 years is astounding, that's impressive utilization of assets. In the UK, Royal Mail disposes of its delivery vehicles every three years when they become due for annual roadworthiness testing. And quite often the replacement vehicle is a different type entirely ( lowest-bid contracts ) so they have no commonality of maintenance. Seems like an expensive way to operate a fleet but they show no sign of changing.

FussyZeus 11y ago

The biggest problem of all is that anyone, literally thousands of people according to the source, would assume that an American company would provide branded vehicles to a terrorist group. At least the people in Idiocracy KNEW they would stupid and acted accordingly, puts them head and shoulders above a huge part of our population.

tw04 11y ago

This is either the second time this has happened, or this story is a rehash of something that happened a long time ago.

qbrass 11y ago
Pretty sure it's a later development of the same story. The first time was just the guy trying to clear his reputation.

nzp 11y ago

It's interesting how almost everyone, and certainly those who harassed our good plumber, sees the words "extremists in Syria", completely ignores what group it actually is (the name is there, it's not ISIS), and just assumes it's ISIS. Even a lot of people here just go with "it's ISIS". If only the Syrian War was that simple. This is actually a group[0] hostile to ISIS, although affiliated with Al-Qaeda. One other interesting thing, from the article, that seems ignored – this car was exported to Turkey. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaish_al-Muhajireen_wal-Ansar

scotty79 11y ago

Shouldn't he rather go after people who harassed him? That's where neutral information morphs into harmful action.