8 ms·

Why Apple Wants to Get into the Unprofitable World of Payments Between Friends

21 points by jackgavigan 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago
Because it's extra convenience and another reason to get an iDevice?
- tim333 11y ago
  Makes sense
- veidr 11y ago
  Yeah, I think that alone is good enough reason for them to do it. The scale of iOS is massive enough that this can be another one of those "things that make people annoyed when their friends don't have an iPhone".
ubersync 11y ago
An article on peer-2-peer payments, and not a single mention of Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies?
- davnicwil 11y ago
  If bitcoin is ever to win in the p2p small transactions space, vs payment processing services moving around digital records of fiat currencies, then it will be because of any inherent advantages it has over those services - or at the root of it actually the advantages it has, at a low level, over moving around digital records of fiat currencies per-se, as most likely there would be just the same range of competing payment processing services built on top of bitcoin anyway. It won't be because it gets marketing from the mainstream press. Perhaps it could help bring people into the ecosystem after a certain critical mass of users is reached, and using bitcoin regularly and getting real value out of it, but almost certainly it won't help before. The appeal has to be intrinsic first and foremost, and the critical mass has to be built to and reached first before we start criticising mainstream media outlets for not mentioning it at every given opportunity. Why would they, when it's not yet (if it will ever be) something that's particularly relevant to most of their readership? The internet was just the same in its very early days. Misunderstood and underestimated at best, actively mocked and trivialised at worst, by the mainstream media. But, clearly, it 'won' in an unimaginably massive sense of the word. Whether this pattern will repeat with bitcoin or not, is a matter of whether bitcoin can realise its lauded potential on paper in the real markets, but regardless I think we should expect there to be a similar pattern if it can. It won't be the opposite, marketed from the top down by the mainstream press and companies, I am pretty confident. But let's see how the next 5 years plays out.. it's going to be fascinating to find out what happens!
- serge2k 11y ago
  Makes sense, they aren't relevant to most people.
  - grubles 11y ago
    Correct. P2P payments brought to you by profit-seeking, privacy-invading mega-companies are not relevant to most people.
    - serge2k 11y ago
      No no, bitcoin. Venmo, for example, is extremely useful.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
jethro_tell 11y ago
Now not only will my friends not iMessage me to come out, I won't be able to split the tab.
eiopa 11y ago
I feel that they have missed that train. There are ubiquitous products (Venmo), and powerful competitors (Facebook Messenger Pay, or however they call it). If they want Apple Pay to gain traction, they need to make it more useful. My personal wishlist item is being able to pay at a restaurant with my phone, without ever asking the waiter for the tab. Right now this requires multiple legs: 1. Ask waiter for check (first trip) 2. they go print it out and come back with it (second trip) 3. I hand over my CC, and they take it to the register (third trip) 4. They return with my credit card, and now I can finally leave the restaurant. This is annoying for everyone. The waiter has to do multiple trips to just handle the transaction without providing any meaningful value (as opposed to recommendation entres, for example). For me it's annoying because I want to leave, but I am essentially trapped until the whole dance completes. A beefed up Apple Pay would be so cool for this scenario.
- tasoeur 11y ago
  In some countries when you ask for the check, the waiter comes back with a card reader and you pay immediately (leave tip on the table if applicable, only "two trips"). Apple Pay or similar still make the experience shorter and more secure.
  - kaybe 11y ago
    Plenty of places here in Germany don't even take cards, only cash.
- X-Istence 11y ago
  In many other countries you don't let your credit card/debit card out of your sight. When I was in Canada for PyCon the wait staff would come back the credit card machine, and I'd pay right there and then. My credit card never leaves my hands. This is more secure against skimming too, and allows Chip & Pin to be easily used.
  - i386 11y ago
    In my experience here in Australia and recently traveling around Europe, the US is the only country that hasn't seemed to get mobile terminal/contactless. It's like they missed the last 5 years completely.
Animats 11y ago
Interesting. PayPal started as peer to peer, and then stopped offering it in favor of consumer-to-business payments. There's an unserved market, but it's low end. Many people going to teller windows in banks are depositing cash to someone else's account to pay rent. This can be done even if the payer doesn't have an account at that branch. A deposit of cash is an immediate credit and can't bounce, so landlords like this. The depositor gets a receipt, so they can prove they paid. There's no fee for a cash deposit, so it's free to both parties. For people with money in the bank, there are many easy ways to pay rent, but for people with little cash, this is the way to go. ATMs won't do such transactions, require an account, and will suck up your cash if you're overdrawn.
tomcam 11y ago
It is a lousy business for Apple, but they can probably a minimum fee of much less than 25 cents.
xcavier 11y ago
It could be you're missing the big picture. Margin on a single transaction? >x% Building out the already STUPENDOUS iTunes database of payment credentials? Priceless. Yes, low margin while you attack the beachhead. Once you secure that, and apply the 'We're Apple' reality distortion in order to wrangle standards that you control... Money magic happens.

21 points by jackgavigan 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

Because it's extra convenience and another reason to get an iDevice?

tim333 11y ago
Makes sense
veidr 11y ago
Yeah, I think that alone is good enough reason for them to do it. The scale of iOS is massive enough that this can be another one of those "things that make people annoyed when their friends don't have an iPhone".

ubersync 11y ago

An article on peer-2-peer payments, and not a single mention of Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies?

davnicwil 11y ago
If bitcoin is ever to win in the p2p small transactions space, vs payment processing services moving around digital records of fiat currencies, then it will be because of any inherent advantages it has over those services - or at the root of it actually the advantages it has, at a low level, over moving around digital records of fiat currencies per-se, as most likely there would be just the same range of competing payment processing services built on top of bitcoin anyway. It won't be because it gets marketing from the mainstream press. Perhaps it could help bring people into the ecosystem after a certain critical mass of users is reached, and using bitcoin regularly and getting real value out of it, but almost certainly it won't help before. The appeal has to be intrinsic first and foremost, and the critical mass has to be built to and reached first before we start criticising mainstream media outlets for not mentioning it at every given opportunity. Why would they, when it's not yet (if it will ever be) something that's particularly relevant to most of their readership? The internet was just the same in its very early days. Misunderstood and underestimated at best, actively mocked and trivialised at worst, by the mainstream media. But, clearly, it 'won' in an unimaginably massive sense of the word. Whether this pattern will repeat with bitcoin or not, is a matter of whether bitcoin can realise its lauded potential on paper in the real markets, but regardless I think we should expect there to be a similar pattern if it can. It won't be the opposite, marketed from the top down by the mainstream press and companies, I am pretty confident. But let's see how the next 5 years plays out.. it's going to be fascinating to find out what happens!
serge2k 11y ago
Makes sense, they aren't relevant to most people.
- grubles 11y ago
  Correct. P2P payments brought to you by profit-seeking, privacy-invading mega-companies are not relevant to most people.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    No no, bitcoin. Venmo, for example, is extremely useful.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

jethro_tell 11y ago

Now not only will my friends not iMessage me to come out, I won't be able to split the tab.

eiopa 11y ago

I feel that they have missed that train. There are ubiquitous products (Venmo), and powerful competitors (Facebook Messenger Pay, or however they call it). If they want Apple Pay to gain traction, they need to make it more useful. My personal wishlist item is being able to pay at a restaurant with my phone, without ever asking the waiter for the tab. Right now this requires multiple legs: 1. Ask waiter for check (first trip) 2. they go print it out and come back with it (second trip) 3. I hand over my CC, and they take it to the register (third trip) 4. They return with my credit card, and now I can finally leave the restaurant. This is annoying for everyone. The waiter has to do multiple trips to just handle the transaction without providing any meaningful value (as opposed to recommendation entres, for example). For me it's annoying because I want to leave, but I am essentially trapped until the whole dance completes. A beefed up Apple Pay would be so cool for this scenario.

tasoeur 11y ago
In some countries when you ask for the check, the waiter comes back with a card reader and you pay immediately (leave tip on the table if applicable, only "two trips"). Apple Pay or similar still make the experience shorter and more secure.
- kaybe 11y ago
  Plenty of places here in Germany don't even take cards, only cash.
X-Istence 11y ago
In many other countries you don't let your credit card/debit card out of your sight. When I was in Canada for PyCon the wait staff would come back the credit card machine, and I'd pay right there and then. My credit card never leaves my hands. This is more secure against skimming too, and allows Chip & Pin to be easily used.
- i386 11y ago
  In my experience here in Australia and recently traveling around Europe, the US is the only country that hasn't seemed to get mobile terminal/contactless. It's like they missed the last 5 years completely.

Animats 11y ago

Interesting. PayPal started as peer to peer, and then stopped offering it in favor of consumer-to-business payments. There's an unserved market, but it's low end. Many people going to teller windows in banks are depositing cash to someone else's account to pay rent. This can be done even if the payer doesn't have an account at that branch. A deposit of cash is an immediate credit and can't bounce, so landlords like this. The depositor gets a receipt, so they can prove they paid. There's no fee for a cash deposit, so it's free to both parties. For people with money in the bank, there are many easy ways to pay rent, but for people with little cash, this is the way to go. ATMs won't do such transactions, require an account, and will suck up your cash if you're overdrawn.

tomcam 11y ago

It is a lousy business for Apple, but they can probably a minimum fee of much less than 25 cents.

xcavier 11y ago

It could be you're missing the big picture. Margin on a single transaction? >x% Building out the already STUPENDOUS iTunes database of payment credentials? Priceless. Yes, low margin while you attack the beachhead. Once you secure that, and apply the 'We're Apple' reality distortion in order to wrangle standards that you control... Money magic happens.