5 ms·

So, at first, they've told us that they don't have enough resources to pour into Thunderbird because they were working on something else. That something else wa

by r3bl 11y ago

So, at first, they've told us that they don't have enough resources to pour into Thunderbird because they were working on something else. That something else was Firefox OS. Okay, sure. I would love to have a Mozilla developed OS on my phone. Then, months have passed and, even though they have an agreement with the country right next to mine, I was not able to have one without having someone from that country who will sign a contract with the carrier. Then they have decided to give Thunderbird away to some other project because they wanted to focus on Firefox. Sure, why not? But, a day or two later, they have released an app for iOS that completely does not belong in their model of service since it has nothing to do with Firefox and it won't actually work with Firefox. And now they're telling us that they're moving Firefox OS to "IoT devices", killing Firefox OS smartphone idea before I had a chance to actually get my hands on one of them. Great work Mozilla!

randomsearch 11y ago
+1 for the point about Thunderbird. We need good open-source mail clients. I'm not sure we need a Firefox OS, and regardless they just don't have the market power to make it work.
- saljam 11y ago
  There's Mailpile: https://www.mailpile.is/ https://www.mailpile.is/
  - tehbeard 11y ago
    That looks neat but doesn't fufill the "low resource client on my desktop with notifications" that Thunderbird does.
    - SunboX 11y ago
      Maybe re-package the Firefox OS Mail Client? ;) It's "low resource" ;) -> https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/tree/master/apps/email https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/tree/master/apps/email
    - znpy 11y ago
      Low resource? Thunderbird? You might want to check out claws-mail. You get notification via a plugin (on debian/ubuntu, the plugin is in another package, but it's very easy to get).
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  >We need good open-source mail clients Take a look at https://nylas.com/N1 https://nylas.com/N1
  - dchest 11y ago
    It's not the traditional mail client, it requires server (https://github.com/nylas/N1/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#running-against-open-source-sync-engine https://github.com/nylas/N1/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#runn...)
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      You can host a server yourself or use a version hosted by the company. If you are not concerned with privacy issues, it works like a traditional mail client.
      - tdkl 11y ago
        He said he wanted a mail client, not a mail client that requires a self hosted server infrastructure or giving the email out. > it works like a traditional mail client. Except it's not just a client.
      - e12e 11y ago
        Wait, last time I checked, the API/Server wasn't free software? Did I miss something, or has the licensing model changed?
        vdaniuk 11y ago
        It seems that sync engine was AGPL licensed from the start https://github.com/nylas/sync-engine/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/nylas/sync-engine/blob/master/LICENSE
        e12e 11y ago
        I didn't realize the sync engine was available and possible to use for a 100% self-host solution -- but evidently it is :-)
- richardboegli 11y ago
  FossaMail is an Open Source, Mozilla Thunderbird-based mail, news and chat client for Windows and Linux, brought to you by the Pale Moon developers (and therefore not affiliated with the Mozilla Corporation). It is an alternative version of the Mozilla Thunderbird mail&news client, and based on the Pale Moon browser core. http://www.fossamail.org/ http://www.fossamail.org/
- dingaling 11y ago
  Thunderbird is / was probably the last comprehensive desktop mail client that enabled ordinary users to decouple themselves from e-mail providers. Unfortunately Mozilla [ com | org ] have shackled themselves to Googlemail internally, so seem to have abandoned any aspirations to fight for openness in the domain of e-mail.
pixard 11y ago
They're also removing tab groups (panorama) in the next version. Apparently due to low usage -- which is surprising considering how much they've advertised the feature. /s
sangnoir 11y ago
> So, at first, they've told us that they don't have enough resources to pour into Thunderbird because they were working on something else. That something else was Firefox OS I'm not really familiar with Mozilla's internal org - so I have just had a look at Mozilla Corp's leadership page[1]: there is an SVP for Firefox, and an SVP for "Connected Devices" - who authored the linked article. There are no other SVPs: which suggests MozCorp consider connected devices to be as important as Firefox . It looks like Thunderbird is orphaned and has no champion within Mozilla (I don't think the Firefox division wants it). So it looks like it boils down to org structure & politics (for the lack of a better word): Thunderbird is dying because it's an unwanted step-child, and FirefoxOS is revived because it's the biggest thing going on for an entire division/department ("Connected Devices") 1. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/
kbart 11y ago
It looks like Mozilla is chasing tech buzzwords, but are always a few steps too far behind to actually do any impact. Why not focus on what they are doing best (i.e. browser, email)? There's still plenty to do, Firefox keeps crashing both on my desktop PC and Android phone, now Thunderbird is abandoned. IoT market is full of big players with vast amount of resources and saturated not less (if not more) than smartphone market, I don't see how they gonna compete there. As for OSS, Linux is doing great and keeps doing better in IoT scene[0], why not merge efforts? I appreciate Mozilla's efforts, but lately it lacks focus and clear goals. Maybe some fresh blood would help? We will explore and prototype new use cases in the world of connected devices as an open source project with a clear focus on the user benefit and experience. ..yada yada, sounds like a buzzword filled marketing crap with no substance whatsoever[1]. 0. https://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/mobile-linux/818011-embedded-linux-keeps-growing-amid-iot-disruption-says-study https://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/mobile-linux/8180... 1. https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/04f/263/04c1eb8.jpg https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/04f/263/04c1eb8.jpg
- krisdol 11y ago
  They focus a ton on the browser. I use chrome a lot less than Firefox and I still see chrome tab crashes more often. Spidermonkey performs amazingly today, and even beats V8 on its own benchmarks. FF used to be resource hungry, but now is a lot lighter on memory usage than chrome. Beyond current tech, they're investing heavily into Rust and Servo for the next generation, and their ES6/7 support has been steadily growing. By all measures, it's clear that they have goals on the browser and they take those goals seriously. What else can they do? Third party desktop mail clients are just not a killer feature for the vast majority of users. IoT may not be a winner for various reasons, but I'm sure it can't be easy trying to figure out where to go from here. (let's face it, IoT is going to be the same locked-down, vendor-specific experience that Internet tv has become; and without manufacturing a must-have device or buying out a manufacturer of one, why would Mozilla win in that field?)
  - rapind 11y ago
    Rust and Servo are easily the most important things they're working on IMHO. And WebAssembly, which combined with Servo I hope will have a big impact on web UI development and performance.
fabrice_d 11y ago
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Thunderbird was sunset to keep resources for Firefox OS, but that's not the case. There's only one former TB dev that works on Firefox OS, and guess what, he's in charge of the email app. If you want to try Firefox OS, even with no carrier support, take a look at https://firefoxos.mozilla.community/devices/ https://firefoxos.mozilla.community/devices/ which lists supported devices.
- e15ctr0n 11y ago
  From Mitchell Baker's blog post, it appears that it is Firefox that has diverging needs from Thunderbird. "Thunderbird and Firefox are interconnected in a few different ways. They are connected through our technical infrastructure. Both use Mozilla build and release systems. They’re connected through the sharing of some pieces of technology. The time has come when it is no longer effective for Thunderbird and Firefox to keep sharing the same technical infrastructure. Firefox and Thunderbird have diverging needs." https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/12/03/thunderbird-update/ https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/12/03/thunderbird-updat...
e15ctr0n 11y ago
The irony of this pivot is that Andreas Gal, one of the creators of Firefox OS,[1] has already tried to do IoT with Firefox OS[2] and failed. His startup is now doing IoT with NodeJS.[3] Li Gong, former executive in charge of Firefox OS,[4] also has a startup focusing on Firefox OS smartphones.[5] Having raised $100 million and poached dozens of Mozilla employees, he is looking for even more funding.[6] [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/mozillas-new-cto-javascript-firefox-os-expert-andreas-gal/ http://www.cnet.com/news/mozillas-new-cto-javascript-firefox... [2] http://www.cnet.com/news/firefox-os-in-flux-as-mozilla-loses-technology-chief-to-startup/ http://www.cnet.com/news/firefox-os-in-flux-as-mozilla-loses... [3] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-aims-to-make-home-devices-smart-enough-to-anticipate-what-you-need/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-aims-to-make-home-devices-s... [4] https://www.linkedin.com/in/ligongcn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ligongcn [5] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-lands-100-million-to-challenge-smartphone-superpowers-apple-and-google/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-lands-100-million-to-challe... [6] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-acadine-picks-up-the-torch-for-mozillas-troubled-firefox-os/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-acadine-picks-up-the-torch-...
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  Whoa at the last two points. I wonder if Acadine Technologies means that the reports on the death of the Firefox OS smartphone are premature? http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story/acadine-undeterred-efforts-develop-firefox-os-based-mobile-operating-system/2015-12-11 http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story/acadine-undeterred-effor...

by r3bl 11y ago

randomsearch 11y ago

+1 for the point about Thunderbird. We need good open-source mail clients. I'm not sure we need a Firefox OS, and regardless they just don't have the market power to make it work.

saljam 11y ago
There's Mailpile: https://www.mailpile.is/ https://www.mailpile.is/
- tehbeard 11y ago
  That looks neat but doesn't fufill the "low resource client on my desktop with notifications" that Thunderbird does.
  - SunboX 11y ago
    Maybe re-package the Firefox OS Mail Client? ;) It's "low resource" ;) -> https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/tree/master/apps/email https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/tree/master/apps/email
  - znpy 11y ago
    Low resource? Thunderbird? You might want to check out claws-mail. You get notification via a plugin (on debian/ubuntu, the plugin is in another package, but it's very easy to get).
vdaniuk 11y ago
>We need good open-source mail clients Take a look at https://nylas.com/N1 https://nylas.com/N1
- dchest 11y ago
  It's not the traditional mail client, it requires server (https://github.com/nylas/N1/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#running-against-open-source-sync-engine https://github.com/nylas/N1/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#runn...)
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    You can host a server yourself or use a version hosted by the company. If you are not concerned with privacy issues, it works like a traditional mail client.
    - tdkl 11y ago
      He said he wanted a mail client, not a mail client that requires a self hosted server infrastructure or giving the email out. > it works like a traditional mail client. Except it's not just a client.
    - e12e 11y ago
      Wait, last time I checked, the API/Server wasn't free software? Did I miss something, or has the licensing model changed?
      - vdaniuk 11y ago
        It seems that sync engine was AGPL licensed from the start https://github.com/nylas/sync-engine/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/nylas/sync-engine/blob/master/LICENSE
        e12e 11y ago
        I didn't realize the sync engine was available and possible to use for a 100% self-host solution -- but evidently it is :-)
richardboegli 11y ago
FossaMail is an Open Source, Mozilla Thunderbird-based mail, news and chat client for Windows and Linux, brought to you by the Pale Moon developers (and therefore not affiliated with the Mozilla Corporation). It is an alternative version of the Mozilla Thunderbird mail&news client, and based on the Pale Moon browser core. http://www.fossamail.org/ http://www.fossamail.org/
dingaling 11y ago
Thunderbird is / was probably the last comprehensive desktop mail client that enabled ordinary users to decouple themselves from e-mail providers. Unfortunately Mozilla [ com | org ] have shackled themselves to Googlemail internally, so seem to have abandoned any aspirations to fight for openness in the domain of e-mail.

pixard 11y ago

They're also removing tab groups (panorama) in the next version. Apparently due to low usage -- which is surprising considering how much they've advertised the feature. /s

sangnoir 11y ago

> So, at first, they've told us that they don't have enough resources to pour into Thunderbird because they were working on something else. That something else was Firefox OS I'm not really familiar with Mozilla's internal org - so I have just had a look at Mozilla Corp's leadership page[1]: there is an SVP for Firefox, and an SVP for "Connected Devices" - who authored the linked article. There are no other SVPs: which suggests MozCorp consider connected devices to be as important as Firefox . It looks like Thunderbird is orphaned and has no champion within Mozilla (I don't think the Firefox division wants it). So it looks like it boils down to org structure & politics (for the lack of a better word): Thunderbird is dying because it's an unwanted step-child, and FirefoxOS is revived because it's the biggest thing going on for an entire division/department ("Connected Devices") 1. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/

kbart 11y ago

It looks like Mozilla is chasing tech buzzwords, but are always a few steps too far behind to actually do any impact. Why not focus on what they are doing best (i.e. browser, email)? There's still plenty to do, Firefox keeps crashing both on my desktop PC and Android phone, now Thunderbird is abandoned. IoT market is full of big players with vast amount of resources and saturated not less (if not more) than smartphone market, I don't see how they gonna compete there. As for OSS, Linux is doing great and keeps doing better in IoT scene[0], why not merge efforts? I appreciate Mozilla's efforts, but lately it lacks focus and clear goals. Maybe some fresh blood would help? We will explore and prototype new use cases in the world of connected devices as an open source project with a clear focus on the user benefit and experience. ..yada yada, sounds like a buzzword filled marketing crap with no substance whatsoever[1]. 0. https://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/mobile-linux/818011-embedded-linux-keeps-growing-amid-iot-disruption-says-study https://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/mobile-linux/8180... 1. https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/04f/263/04c1eb8.jpg https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/04f/263/04c1eb8.jpg

krisdol 11y ago
They focus a ton on the browser. I use chrome a lot less than Firefox and I still see chrome tab crashes more often. Spidermonkey performs amazingly today, and even beats V8 on its own benchmarks. FF used to be resource hungry, but now is a lot lighter on memory usage than chrome. Beyond current tech, they're investing heavily into Rust and Servo for the next generation, and their ES6/7 support has been steadily growing. By all measures, it's clear that they have goals on the browser and they take those goals seriously. What else can they do? Third party desktop mail clients are just not a killer feature for the vast majority of users. IoT may not be a winner for various reasons, but I'm sure it can't be easy trying to figure out where to go from here. (let's face it, IoT is going to be the same locked-down, vendor-specific experience that Internet tv has become; and without manufacturing a must-have device or buying out a manufacturer of one, why would Mozilla win in that field?)
- rapind 11y ago
  Rust and Servo are easily the most important things they're working on IMHO. And WebAssembly, which combined with Servo I hope will have a big impact on web UI development and performance.

fabrice_d 11y ago

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Thunderbird was sunset to keep resources for Firefox OS, but that's not the case. There's only one former TB dev that works on Firefox OS, and guess what, he's in charge of the email app. If you want to try Firefox OS, even with no carrier support, take a look at https://firefoxos.mozilla.community/devices/ https://firefoxos.mozilla.community/devices/ which lists supported devices.

e15ctr0n 11y ago
From Mitchell Baker's blog post, it appears that it is Firefox that has diverging needs from Thunderbird. "Thunderbird and Firefox are interconnected in a few different ways. They are connected through our technical infrastructure. Both use Mozilla build and release systems. They’re connected through the sharing of some pieces of technology. The time has come when it is no longer effective for Thunderbird and Firefox to keep sharing the same technical infrastructure. Firefox and Thunderbird have diverging needs." https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/12/03/thunderbird-update/ https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/12/03/thunderbird-updat...

e15ctr0n 11y ago

The irony of this pivot is that Andreas Gal, one of the creators of Firefox OS,[1] has already tried to do IoT with Firefox OS[2] and failed. His startup is now doing IoT with NodeJS.[3] Li Gong, former executive in charge of Firefox OS,[4] also has a startup focusing on Firefox OS smartphones.[5] Having raised $100 million and poached dozens of Mozilla employees, he is looking for even more funding.[6] [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/mozillas-new-cto-javascript-firefox-os-expert-andreas-gal/ http://www.cnet.com/news/mozillas-new-cto-javascript-firefox... [2] http://www.cnet.com/news/firefox-os-in-flux-as-mozilla-loses-technology-chief-to-startup/ http://www.cnet.com/news/firefox-os-in-flux-as-mozilla-loses... [3] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-aims-to-make-home-devices-smart-enough-to-anticipate-what-you-need/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-aims-to-make-home-devices-s... [4] https://www.linkedin.com/in/ligongcn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ligongcn [5] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-lands-100-million-to-challenge-smartphone-superpowers-apple-and-google/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-lands-100-million-to-challe... [6] http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-acadine-picks-up-the-torch-for-mozillas-troubled-firefox-os/ http://www.cnet.com/news/startup-acadine-picks-up-the-torch-...

Apocryphon 11y ago
Whoa at the last two points. I wonder if Acadine Technologies means that the reports on the death of the Firefox OS smartphone are premature? http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story/acadine-undeterred-efforts-develop-firefox-os-based-mobile-operating-system/2015-12-11 http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story/acadine-undeterred-effor...