8 ms·

I have read more than one article that many don't use Apple pay either. I have it and honestly have no reason to use it because credit cards just work. It would

I have read more than one article that many don't use Apple pay either. I have it and honestly have no reason to use it because credit cards just work. It would be one thing if fraud was prevalent and using your credit card was difficult but that has never been the case. I still don't understand the business case other than trying to open a new revenue stream because it certainly wasn't solving a problem

Zikes 11y ago
Presumably it's more secure as it shouldn't expose your credit card number to the point of sale. Given the number of major hacks in that area in recent years, that should really be the #1 touted feature of such "X Pay" systems.
- RussianCow 11y ago
  EMV chips more or less solve this problem, though, they just haven't caught on here in the US yet.
  - usaphp 11y ago
    All of my credit card companies and banks issued me new "chipped" cards within a month or so without my request, so I am guessing they are tryingto take it serious now
    - abakker 11y ago
      FWIW, the transaction time using the chip to authorize vs apple pay is night and day. The Apple pay swipe is quick and you can put the phone back in your pocket. The chip card has to linger through the authorization process and makes the whole thing feel slow.
    - jcheng 11y ago
      EMV liability shift is why both banks and retailers suddenly got serious: http://www.emv-connection.com/understanding-the-2015-u-s-fraud-liability-shifts/ http://www.emv-connection.com/understanding-the-2015-u-s-fra...
  - Swizec 11y ago
    The funny part with those chips in the US is that on most terminals I've used you can just click "Yes" instead of entering your PIN number. This gives you the option to sign for it. So it really doesn't solve the problem at all. Afaik you can't do that in Europe. At least I've never heard of it being possible.
    - LastMuel 11y ago
      That's one issue. I still cannot seem to get my mind around another, though. Conceptually, I don't grasp how possibly exposing my PIN number at a point of sale is MORE secure. I just can't get past the idea that I'm now using the number I use to withdraw funds at an ATM at MORE places than just at my bank.
      - moheeb 11y ago
        I've always had to enter my PIN when using my card...so I don't see it as any LESS secure. I doubt it will take much for you to get past it.
      - Swizec 11y ago
        You're not exposing the PIN number. Properly designed card readers make the dialpad hard to read for anyone looking over your shoulders (you obscure it with your hand and there's a guard thingy around so they can't see your fingers). And the machine itself checks the PIN against the chip. No sending anywhere, no checking by the clerk. You only have to trust the machine itself. If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? Card+signature is security by "something you have", Card+PIN is "something you have and something you know". That's much more secure. A signature isn't "something you know" because it's written on the card anyway. If it's not written on the card, then using the signature doesn't do anything in the first place. And nobody checks those signatures anyway. This is why for large purchases they ask to see your ID.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? If a machine charged you too much, either it would say so on the receipt and you could protest immediately, or the receipt wouldn't match the charge so you could protest later. Sure, the first few customers might get fucked, but soon the bad machine would be caught. OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    They're slow though. EMV is being rolled out in the US and it will fail because it's slower than a swipe or a tap.
    - joosters 11y ago
      When chip+pin rolled out in the UK, it noticeably sped up checkouts, it is certainly faster than signing.
      - jonknee 11y ago
        The US does a lot of swipe+pin or just swipe, but the EMV process itself takes a long time (regardless of a PIN or signing afterwards): http://www.lowcards.com/emv-transactions-slow-37884 http://www.lowcards.com/emv-transactions-slow-37884 Compared to Apple/Android Pay it's painfully slow, but it's also noticeably slower than swiping.
        joosters 11y ago
        That page is just plain wrong. You can put the card into a reader, type your PIN in, and get your card back almost straight away. 5 seconds is possible if you don't forget your PIN! The process can be slower if the retailer uses an older system that hasn't got a permanent network connection. With some ancient terminals, you could hear a modem dialing up and talking to the bank. That was slow, but luckily those kind of terminals are now rare.
        profmonocle 11y ago
        This is anecdotal, of course - but it's been much slower than swiping at every store I've used it at. These stores were using the exact same terminals for swiping just a few months ago, so it's not the network. Hopefully it's just crappy hardware in the terminals that's not optimized for EMV. Edit: Swiping used to take 1-2 seconds to process, EMV seems to take about 10.
        mdp 11y ago
        That page is specifically talking about EMV in the US, and for whatever reason, I've never seen a EMV 'dip' that takes less than 5-10 seconds here. Target for example has consistently been around 10 seconds every time I've used EMV there and I doubt they are using dial-up.
tammer 11y ago
I think the long plan here is what Tim Cook specifically said when announcing Apple Pay - eventually, the iPhone will replace your wallet and keys. This in turn will make iPhone an essential part of life - a necessary goal for a product so successful to continue growing. Expect an identity product in the near to mid future.
- bennyg 11y ago
  That really sucks when you run out of battery then. Just don't understand the fascination to replace everything - maybe that's the Eagle Scout in me, but I'd rather have a backup plan, aka keys, wallet, etc on me than try and minimize pocket clutter.
- coldpie 11y ago
  I'll never own an iPhone, so unless they plan to extend Apple Pay to other platforms, no, it won't be replacing my wallet or keys ever.
- untog 11y ago
  Sounds awful. What happens when I lose it, I lose my entire life? Battery dies? Drop it in the toilet? Having all the important aspects of your life a little distributed isn't the worst thing in the world.
  - eanzenberg 11y ago
    The part of the iphone which includes "you" is stored in the cloud. You only lose/damage the hardware part, so get another one and backup from the cloud. Currently more expensive than when losing a set of keys or wallet but may not be in the future.
    - bennyg 11y ago
      Meh - maybe. Imagine this scenario: You're out at a restaurant, and you drove there. Your phone dies somehow, either dropped in toilet, or what have you. How do you do the following? - Pay for dinner - Drive your car, since your keys were in your phone - Pay for a cab since you can no longer drive - Pay for a phone replacement at an Apple Store etc, etc.
dionidium 11y ago
I have it and honestly have no reason to use it because credit cards just work. This is exactly what I thought, but I started using Apple Pay, anyway, because Discover is offering 10% cash back on all in-store Apple Pay purchases through the end of the year. That's too good to pass up. Now that I've been using it for a while, I wish it were available everywhere. It's a small thing, but taking my phone out of my pocket is the most natural thing in the world. Subjectively, the process feels smooth.
mikeash 11y ago
I use Apple Pay sometimes. It's somewhat easier than using a card, which is a nice little advantage. Unfortunately, Apple Pay is suffering from the wrong end of network effects. Support is far from ubiquitous, so you don't know whether any given transaction will support it. You can look for the NFC logo, but some places with the logo still don't support it. At that point, it's easier to whip out the card by default. If I've been to a place before and know they take it, I'll usually use it, but there aren't many such places for me.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  Apple Pay in the UK is limited to £30 (like all contactless transactions). Is it the same in the US? Because I don't see how the phone can be much quicker when plastic cards support the same contactless transactions, and have no buttons to fiddle with.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    I'm not aware of any limits in the US, but it could just be that I haven't spent enough money in a transaction to encounter them. The phone can be quicker than a plastic card because the phone is more convenient to reach. It's just in my pocket. Reach in, thumb on home button, put near terminal, approved, put phone away. With a card, I have to get it out of my wallet too. Not a big deal, but not as smooth. (Plus, with today's addictive smartphones and short attention spans, half the time my phone is already in my hand at this time.) Strictly speaking you can leave the card in your wallet and just hold the whole wallet to the terminal. But this only works if you have exactly one contactless card (or if you don't care which card pays). Unfortunately the US is moving away from such cards. I used to have two or three, but I just checked my wallet and out of the eight payment cards I have in there, none of them support NFC. Sad.
imglorp 11y ago
I think it's as much about repeat customer intel as it is direct revenue. Like loyalty cards. Then if they get into the credit business, via app or otherwise, it's fees and fines and interest too.
Retra 11y ago
Can you use Apple Pay without an Apple device? If not, then the only way it could see mass adoption is if Apple devices got quite cheap.
- saidajigumi 11y ago
  No, you can't, but other NFC systems employing the contactless payment standards, notably Android Pay, also apply to this discussion.
disillusioned 11y ago
Similar to how Coin and Plastc and all those stupid "aggregated cards" don't solve an actual problem that existed. "Hey! How annoying is it that you have to carry AS MANY AS FOUR CREDIT CARDS?" "Um, it's... not really..." "Well how about CARRYING FIVE?" "What?" "Well, ours merges those together but... it doesn't really work anywhere so." "TAKE MY $50!"
- Tushon 11y ago
  FWIW, my personal experience has been about 90% success rate. They have a pretty specific case that they don't support, and it's almost always with old systems. My use case was rewards program based, e.g. a gas card. I now am able to carry a two slot wallet with my driver's license, Coin, health insurance card and my ATM card (which would also work on Coin, but they cautioned about machines with "auto" feeding. Obviously, YMMV and I'm in a major city, so it might not be as useful in the sticks.
kstrauser 11y ago
I've had my debit card canceled for fraud three times in the last four years, after only dealing with vendors I'd think would be reputable. I LOVE Apple Pay and similar layers between vendors and my credit card. On the same note, I will never, ever use something like CurrentC that gives those same vendors a direct line into my bank accounts.

Zikes 11y ago

Presumably it's more secure as it shouldn't expose your credit card number to the point of sale. Given the number of major hacks in that area in recent years, that should really be the #1 touted feature of such "X Pay" systems.

RussianCow 11y ago
EMV chips more or less solve this problem, though, they just haven't caught on here in the US yet.
- usaphp 11y ago
  All of my credit card companies and banks issued me new "chipped" cards within a month or so without my request, so I am guessing they are tryingto take it serious now
  - abakker 11y ago
    FWIW, the transaction time using the chip to authorize vs apple pay is night and day. The Apple pay swipe is quick and you can put the phone back in your pocket. The chip card has to linger through the authorization process and makes the whole thing feel slow.
  - jcheng 11y ago
    EMV liability shift is why both banks and retailers suddenly got serious: http://www.emv-connection.com/understanding-the-2015-u-s-fraud-liability-shifts/ http://www.emv-connection.com/understanding-the-2015-u-s-fra...
- Swizec 11y ago
  The funny part with those chips in the US is that on most terminals I've used you can just click "Yes" instead of entering your PIN number. This gives you the option to sign for it. So it really doesn't solve the problem at all. Afaik you can't do that in Europe. At least I've never heard of it being possible.
  - LastMuel 11y ago
    That's one issue. I still cannot seem to get my mind around another, though. Conceptually, I don't grasp how possibly exposing my PIN number at a point of sale is MORE secure. I just can't get past the idea that I'm now using the number I use to withdraw funds at an ATM at MORE places than just at my bank.
    - moheeb 11y ago
      I've always had to enter my PIN when using my card...so I don't see it as any LESS secure. I doubt it will take much for you to get past it.
    - Swizec 11y ago
      You're not exposing the PIN number. Properly designed card readers make the dialpad hard to read for anyone looking over your shoulders (you obscure it with your hand and there's a guard thingy around so they can't see your fingers). And the machine itself checks the PIN against the chip. No sending anywhere, no checking by the clerk. You only have to trust the machine itself. If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? Card+signature is security by "something you have", Card+PIN is "something you have and something you know". That's much more secure. A signature isn't "something you know" because it's written on the card anyway. If it's not written on the card, then using the signature doesn't do anything in the first place. And nobody checks those signatures anyway. This is why for large purchases they ask to see your ID.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        If you don't, you're fucked anyway because who says a hacked machine will only charge as much as it says it will? If a machine charged you too much, either it would say so on the receipt and you could protest immediately, or the receipt wouldn't match the charge so you could protest later. Sure, the first few customers might get fucked, but soon the bad machine would be caught. OTOH if the machine processed the current transaction correctly while sending all your codes to the bad guys, it could do so until the store noticed its bad firmware, which could take years.
- jonknee 11y ago
  They're slow though. EMV is being rolled out in the US and it will fail because it's slower than a swipe or a tap.
  - joosters 11y ago
    When chip+pin rolled out in the UK, it noticeably sped up checkouts, it is certainly faster than signing.
    - jonknee 11y ago
      The US does a lot of swipe+pin or just swipe, but the EMV process itself takes a long time (regardless of a PIN or signing afterwards): http://www.lowcards.com/emv-transactions-slow-37884 http://www.lowcards.com/emv-transactions-slow-37884 Compared to Apple/Android Pay it's painfully slow, but it's also noticeably slower than swiping.
      - joosters 11y ago
        That page is just plain wrong. You can put the card into a reader, type your PIN in, and get your card back almost straight away. 5 seconds is possible if you don't forget your PIN! The process can be slower if the retailer uses an older system that hasn't got a permanent network connection. With some ancient terminals, you could hear a modem dialing up and talking to the bank. That was slow, but luckily those kind of terminals are now rare.
        profmonocle 11y ago
        This is anecdotal, of course - but it's been much slower than swiping at every store I've used it at. These stores were using the exact same terminals for swiping just a few months ago, so it's not the network. Hopefully it's just crappy hardware in the terminals that's not optimized for EMV. Edit: Swiping used to take 1-2 seconds to process, EMV seems to take about 10.
        mdp 11y ago
        That page is specifically talking about EMV in the US, and for whatever reason, I've never seen a EMV 'dip' that takes less than 5-10 seconds here. Target for example has consistently been around 10 seconds every time I've used EMV there and I doubt they are using dial-up.

tammer 11y ago

I think the long plan here is what Tim Cook specifically said when announcing Apple Pay - eventually, the iPhone will replace your wallet and keys. This in turn will make iPhone an essential part of life - a necessary goal for a product so successful to continue growing. Expect an identity product in the near to mid future.

bennyg 11y ago
That really sucks when you run out of battery then. Just don't understand the fascination to replace everything - maybe that's the Eagle Scout in me, but I'd rather have a backup plan, aka keys, wallet, etc on me than try and minimize pocket clutter.
coldpie 11y ago
I'll never own an iPhone, so unless they plan to extend Apple Pay to other platforms, no, it won't be replacing my wallet or keys ever.
untog 11y ago
Sounds awful. What happens when I lose it, I lose my entire life? Battery dies? Drop it in the toilet? Having all the important aspects of your life a little distributed isn't the worst thing in the world.
- eanzenberg 11y ago
  The part of the iphone which includes "you" is stored in the cloud. You only lose/damage the hardware part, so get another one and backup from the cloud. Currently more expensive than when losing a set of keys or wallet but may not be in the future.
  - bennyg 11y ago
    Meh - maybe. Imagine this scenario: You're out at a restaurant, and you drove there. Your phone dies somehow, either dropped in toilet, or what have you. How do you do the following? - Pay for dinner - Drive your car, since your keys were in your phone - Pay for a cab since you can no longer drive - Pay for a phone replacement at an Apple Store etc, etc.

dionidium 11y ago

I have it and honestly have no reason to use it because credit cards just work. This is exactly what I thought, but I started using Apple Pay, anyway, because Discover is offering 10% cash back on all in-store Apple Pay purchases through the end of the year. That's too good to pass up. Now that I've been using it for a while, I wish it were available everywhere. It's a small thing, but taking my phone out of my pocket is the most natural thing in the world. Subjectively, the process feels smooth.

mikeash 11y ago

I use Apple Pay sometimes. It's somewhat easier than using a card, which is a nice little advantage. Unfortunately, Apple Pay is suffering from the wrong end of network effects. Support is far from ubiquitous, so you don't know whether any given transaction will support it. You can look for the NFC logo, but some places with the logo still don't support it. At that point, it's easier to whip out the card by default. If I've been to a place before and know they take it, I'll usually use it, but there aren't many such places for me.

Symbiote 11y ago
Apple Pay in the UK is limited to £30 (like all contactless transactions). Is it the same in the US? Because I don't see how the phone can be much quicker when plastic cards support the same contactless transactions, and have no buttons to fiddle with.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I'm not aware of any limits in the US, but it could just be that I haven't spent enough money in a transaction to encounter them. The phone can be quicker than a plastic card because the phone is more convenient to reach. It's just in my pocket. Reach in, thumb on home button, put near terminal, approved, put phone away. With a card, I have to get it out of my wallet too. Not a big deal, but not as smooth. (Plus, with today's addictive smartphones and short attention spans, half the time my phone is already in my hand at this time.) Strictly speaking you can leave the card in your wallet and just hold the whole wallet to the terminal. But this only works if you have exactly one contactless card (or if you don't care which card pays). Unfortunately the US is moving away from such cards. I used to have two or three, but I just checked my wallet and out of the eight payment cards I have in there, none of them support NFC. Sad.

imglorp 11y ago

I think it's as much about repeat customer intel as it is direct revenue. Like loyalty cards. Then if they get into the credit business, via app or otherwise, it's fees and fines and interest too.

Retra 11y ago

Can you use Apple Pay without an Apple device? If not, then the only way it could see mass adoption is if Apple devices got quite cheap.

saidajigumi 11y ago
No, you can't, but other NFC systems employing the contactless payment standards, notably Android Pay, also apply to this discussion.

disillusioned 11y ago

Similar to how Coin and Plastc and all those stupid "aggregated cards" don't solve an actual problem that existed. "Hey! How annoying is it that you have to carry AS MANY AS FOUR CREDIT CARDS?" "Um, it's... not really..." "Well how about CARRYING FIVE?" "What?" "Well, ours merges those together but... it doesn't really work anywhere so." "TAKE MY $50!"

Tushon 11y ago
FWIW, my personal experience has been about 90% success rate. They have a pretty specific case that they don't support, and it's almost always with old systems. My use case was rewards program based, e.g. a gas card. I now am able to carry a two slot wallet with my driver's license, Coin, health insurance card and my ATM card (which would also work on Coin, but they cautioned about machines with "auto" feeding. Obviously, YMMV and I'm in a major city, so it might not be as useful in the sticks.

kstrauser 11y ago

I've had my debit card canceled for fraud three times in the last four years, after only dealing with vendors I'd think would be reputable. I LOVE Apple Pay and similar layers between vendors and my credit card. On the same note, I will never, ever use something like CurrentC that gives those same vendors a direct line into my bank accounts.