6 ms·

VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

45 points by tetrep 11y ago

sageabilly 11y ago
So Chairman Pötsch said "All of this was caused by a desire to expand diesel sales in the US, a desire that wasn't matched with sufficient time or budget to develop engines that fully complied with the tough NOx emissions regulations of the US." The unsaid implication being that someone was pushing that desire, and the very much danced around implication of either "Management said we have to sell more cars no matter what it takes" (indicating management knew about it and didn't care) or possibly even "Management wants to sell more cars and you must make cars more sellable at all costs" (indicating that the developers were afraid for their jobs if they spoke up about potential misdeeds while making cars more attractive to consumers.) Someone, somewhere, either felt like they couldn't blow the whistle without getting fired (obviously a problem) or management knew about the rule breaking and just didn't care (which is a bigger problem.)
- masklinn 11y ago
  > Someone, somewhere, either felt like they couldn't blow the whistle without getting fired (obviously a problem) or management knew about the rule breaking and just didn't care (which is a bigger problem.) Don't forget somebody blowing the whistle to the hierarchy and a middle-mangler (of justice) "losing" the call. Feynman recounts multiple instances of manglement ignoring or railroading warnings and whistleblowing from engineers and workers, both in and out of NASA, when they didn't fail to consult with their report entirely. Here's a verbatim quote from "Why do you care what other people think" (norton paperback, page 185) > When I left the meeting, I had the definite impression that I had found the same game as with the seals: management reducing criteria and accepting more and more errors that weren't designed into the device, while the engineers are screaming from below, "HELP!" and "This is a RED ALERT!" And top manglement may not only know (and not care) about the issues but cause them, see this other quote a few pages further (194) in the Software Group section (Feynman had been very impressed — positively — by the engineering discipline of the shuttle software group) > One guy muttered something about higher-ups in NASA wanting to cut back on testing to save money: "They keep saying we always pass the tests, so what's the use of having so many?"
  - Shivetya 11y ago
    process driven cultures tend to generate a lot of apathy from the standpoint that speaking up is systematically discouraged as there is no reward. doesn't matter how right your position is, far more will follow a process to any end as the process itself provides cover from fallout and failure
    - masklinn 11y ago
      Feynman recounts very much the opposite (of apathy), that engineers and even factory workers had remained surprisingly (to him) involved, interested and high in morale, e.g. recounting his meeting with the workers reshaping and reassembling the solid rocket booster sections: > the point is, the workers were thinking! I got the impression that they were not undisciplined; they were very interested in what they were doing, but they weren't given much encouragement. Nobody was paying much attention to them. It was remarkable that their morale was as high as it was under the circumstances.
      - Shivetya 11y ago
        apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale, if anything it can be a coping mechanism. let alone in such groups the idea of not rocking the boat is similar to the Wilder effect; you be what they expect when asked because to disagree causes discomfort or the need to be seen as a team player is real
        masklinn 11y ago
        > apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale Apathy is defined as a lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern, the text I quote is about Feynman finding none of these lacking.
- lyschoening 11y ago
  It's entirely possible that nobody wanted to blow the whistle. This scandal involved making the cars pass some foreign emissions standard by tweaking the engine software. The people responsible for approving engine compliance were also the people responsible for making it compliant (something that VW says it will change now). Even if a bunch of people were involved, they might have liked their solution. The CEO created pressure with his ambition for VW to become the world's largest auto manufacturer; meanwhile the company had a culture and structure that would allow for shortcuts to be taken.
  - LoSboccacc 11y ago
    eh, I find it hard to believe that this was a conspiracy by a restricted group. engineers are know to know how to calculate an engine efficiency. this is not the 60's and they can have a pretty decent knowledge of an engine performance profile by their simulations and knowledge of previous iterations of the same engines. if this really was an internal 'conspiracy' it should have run from the engine engineers of this engine iteration, the previous iteration, the software developers that touched near the code, all the testers testing that software code, all the qa that ran the endless benches run for the engine to qualify for robustness (a very tight and monitor environment [1]), whomever touched that data afterward etc etc. [1] think like this, photi not actual wv center: http://assets.slate.wvu.edu/resources/1117/1304968590.jpg http://assets.slate.wvu.edu/resources/1117/1304968590.jpg
Theodores 11y ago
I just wish one government would say to VW - 'sorry folks, those cars do not meet emission standards, they are destroying the health of the general public to an extent that our health services do not want so please take those cars off the road today.' Thereafter the police being instructed to stop any offending VW found on the roads and tow it to the yard, to be released once VW fixed it, with yard storage charges applied at market rates for the locality. The police have automatic number plate recognition, this talks to the licensing authority and a few lines of code could be added to flag up the emission-spewing diesels. Simple. This would also be an experiment in air quality. If overnight a sizeable percentage of cars were no longer on the roads, would there be a noticeable increase in air quality? This would also be handled by market forces, I am sure my VW driving friends would sort out alternative rides or find garages that could add some fancy exhaust pipe that makes them compliant. Draconian? It depends on whether air quality matters or not. That is a fairly black and white thing - either it matters or it doesn't. The 'rule breaking' culture in VW is all very interesting but neither VW or our elected governments have done a thing to take those polluting machines off the road until they are fixed. It is this culture of complacency that bothers me more because it is happening now. The 'rule breaking' culture continues. You would not breathe diesel fumes if you could see them.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > If overnight a sizeable percentage of cars were no longer on the roads, would there be a noticeable increase in air quality? We've already done this experiment a number of times. C.f. the hospitalization rates during the Atlanta Olympics.
- theli0nheart 11y ago
  Unfortunately, such a draconian rule would hurt the owners of the cars more than VW. It would essentially force every car buyer to buy a new car. Plus, there are plenty of cars on the road built before 2000 that have even worse emissions than these VWs. Would you propose taking those cars off the road as well?
  - scott_karana 11y ago
anigbrowl 11y ago
'Move fast and break the law' might not have been the best slogan to put on the wall....
- woody223 11y ago
  It's working alright for Uber ;)
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. When it comes to emissions controls, though, even the worst lawbreakers among us need to breathe.
    - DannyBee 11y ago
      "Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. " By whose standards/judgments?
      - CamperBob2 11y ago
        That's a complicated question. But I'd start by pointing out that the taxi laws certainly don't have the consent of the governed behind them. If they did, Uber would never have taken such a big chunk of the taxis' market share. When the laws do not respect the people, the people will not respect the laws. That's not a statement of moral value, it's a statement of fact.
      - BurningFrog 11y ago
        Mine, among many others. You're free to see it differently. I think that makes it "arguable".
gsibble 11y ago
"It's all those damn engineers' fault."
johansch 11y ago
This sounds like such a German corporate reaction - almost as if it were a caricature - "they didn't follow the process - how can we be responsible? we better double down on process." How about failing in building a corporate culture that rewards openness and learning from failure? This gives me very little hope for VW, and to an extent, for Germany. These top of the crop german execs just don't get it.
- alayne 11y ago
  Is the incident with GM's ignition switches that killed 100 people the kind of learning from failure we should shoot for?
  - johansch 11y ago
    Please read this: http://www.governing.com/columns/smart-mgmt/col-culture-openness-candor-critical-organizational-success.html http://www.governing.com/columns/smart-mgmt/col-culture-open... "Creating a culture of openness and candor is critical to organizational success. It takes a strong, concerted effort by leaders." "How could this icon of U.S. industry allow the ignition-switch problem to fester for a decade without recalling the faulty vehicles and without notifying federal authorities (as required) and the public? The answer seems to lie in the company's culture. For decades, GM was plagued with warring fiefdoms, so it wasn't in one's interest to surface problems in front of your colleagues. And even when problems were brought to senior managers' attention, action was often impeded by poor communications between GM units. As crisis-management expert Gerry Meyers puts it, "In any big organization, there's an effort by lower-level management to insulate upper-level management. And the more layers there are, the less [likely] that a very serious matter can get to the top."
  - johansch 11y ago
    And come to think of it.. WTF! Do you seriously believe that what is wrong with German auto makers is that they don't have enough process? Come on... reality check please.
paulcole 11y ago
One man's rule breaking is another man's disruption.
vladsanchez 11y ago
Rulebreaking!?!?! They must be PuertoRicans! :-D Disclosure: I am PuertoRican
balls187 11y ago
Can German HN readers can explain this to me. My interpretation of German culture was that rule breaking was looked down upon. My own experience traveling in Germany was that rules were deliberately followed, for example, no one ever crossed the street until the Walk sign was present, regardless of it being busy. Honking your horn by an irritated driver happened only once in my 3 weeks there (and the cyclists took the driver to task for it). The name escapes me, but an expat friend of mine living in Germany mentioned there is a government group that is in charge of making sure posted signs follow strict laws (can't find this on Google). German engineering culture is known for high precision and quality. Made in Germany has the same brand power that Made in Japan, and Made in the US have. Given these stereotypes of German culture, to me, it seems out of sorts that VW (arguably one of the most public of German Companies) would have a culture of rule breaking.
- yoodenvranx 11y ago
  We Germans are not perfect at all. Yes, we are good at engineering and yes, we take our rules a bit more serious than other people, but all in all you will find the same problems here as anywhere else. The rulebreaking is just toned down a bit but it still exists.

45 points by tetrep 11y ago

So Chairman Pötsch said "All of this was caused by a desire to expand diesel sales in the US, a desire that wasn't matched with sufficient time or budget to develop engines that fully complied with the tough NOx emissions regulations of the US." The unsaid implication being that someone was pushing that desire, and the very much danced around implication of either "Management said we have to sell more cars no matter what it takes" (indicating management knew about it and didn't care) or possibly even "Management wants to sell more cars and you must make cars more sellable at all costs" (indicating that the developers were afraid for their jobs if they spoke up about potential misdeeds while making cars more attractive to consumers.) Someone, somewhere, either felt like they couldn't blow the whistle without getting fired (obviously a problem) or management knew about the rule breaking and just didn't care (which is a bigger problem.)

masklinn 11y ago
> Someone, somewhere, either felt like they couldn't blow the whistle without getting fired (obviously a problem) or management knew about the rule breaking and just didn't care (which is a bigger problem.) Don't forget somebody blowing the whistle to the hierarchy and a middle-mangler (of justice) "losing" the call. Feynman recounts multiple instances of manglement ignoring or railroading warnings and whistleblowing from engineers and workers, both in and out of NASA, when they didn't fail to consult with their report entirely. Here's a verbatim quote from "Why do you care what other people think" (norton paperback, page 185) > When I left the meeting, I had the definite impression that I had found the same game as with the seals: management reducing criteria and accepting more and more errors that weren't designed into the device, while the engineers are screaming from below, "HELP!" and "This is a RED ALERT!" And top manglement may not only know (and not care) about the issues but cause them, see this other quote a few pages further (194) in the Software Group section (Feynman had been very impressed — positively — by the engineering discipline of the shuttle software group) > One guy muttered something about higher-ups in NASA wanting to cut back on testing to save money: "They keep saying we always pass the tests, so what's the use of having so many?"
- Shivetya 11y ago
  process driven cultures tend to generate a lot of apathy from the standpoint that speaking up is systematically discouraged as there is no reward. doesn't matter how right your position is, far more will follow a process to any end as the process itself provides cover from fallout and failure
  - masklinn 11y ago
    Feynman recounts very much the opposite (of apathy), that engineers and even factory workers had remained surprisingly (to him) involved, interested and high in morale, e.g. recounting his meeting with the workers reshaping and reassembling the solid rocket booster sections: > the point is, the workers were thinking! I got the impression that they were not undisciplined; they were very interested in what they were doing, but they weren't given much encouragement. Nobody was paying much attention to them. It was remarkable that their morale was as high as it was under the circumstances.
    - Shivetya 11y ago
      apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale, if anything it can be a coping mechanism. let alone in such groups the idea of not rocking the boat is similar to the Wilder effect; you be what they expect when asked because to disagree causes discomfort or the need to be seen as a team player is real
      - masklinn 11y ago
        > apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale Apathy is defined as a lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern, the text I quote is about Feynman finding none of these lacking.
lyschoening 11y ago
It's entirely possible that nobody wanted to blow the whistle. This scandal involved making the cars pass some foreign emissions standard by tweaking the engine software. The people responsible for approving engine compliance were also the people responsible for making it compliant (something that VW says it will change now). Even if a bunch of people were involved, they might have liked their solution. The CEO created pressure with his ambition for VW to become the world's largest auto manufacturer; meanwhile the company had a culture and structure that would allow for shortcuts to be taken.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  eh, I find it hard to believe that this was a conspiracy by a restricted group. engineers are know to know how to calculate an engine efficiency. this is not the 60's and they can have a pretty decent knowledge of an engine performance profile by their simulations and knowledge of previous iterations of the same engines. if this really was an internal 'conspiracy' it should have run from the engine engineers of this engine iteration, the previous iteration, the software developers that touched near the code, all the testers testing that software code, all the qa that ran the endless benches run for the engine to qualify for robustness (a very tight and monitor environment [1]), whomever touched that data afterward etc etc. [1] think like this, photi not actual wv center: http://assets.slate.wvu.edu/resources/1117/1304968590.jpg http://assets.slate.wvu.edu/resources/1117/1304968590.jpg

Theodores 11y ago

I just wish one government would say to VW - 'sorry folks, those cars do not meet emission standards, they are destroying the health of the general public to an extent that our health services do not want so please take those cars off the road today.' Thereafter the police being instructed to stop any offending VW found on the roads and tow it to the yard, to be released once VW fixed it, with yard storage charges applied at market rates for the locality. The police have automatic number plate recognition, this talks to the licensing authority and a few lines of code could be added to flag up the emission-spewing diesels. Simple. This would also be an experiment in air quality. If overnight a sizeable percentage of cars were no longer on the roads, would there be a noticeable increase in air quality? This would also be handled by market forces, I am sure my VW driving friends would sort out alternative rides or find garages that could add some fancy exhaust pipe that makes them compliant. Draconian? It depends on whether air quality matters or not. That is a fairly black and white thing - either it matters or it doesn't. The 'rule breaking' culture in VW is all very interesting but neither VW or our elected governments have done a thing to take those polluting machines off the road until they are fixed. It is this culture of complacency that bothers me more because it is happening now. The 'rule breaking' culture continues. You would not breathe diesel fumes if you could see them.

Alex3917 11y ago
> If overnight a sizeable percentage of cars were no longer on the roads, would there be a noticeable increase in air quality? We've already done this experiment a number of times. C.f. the hospitalization rates during the Atlanta Olympics.
theli0nheart 11y ago
Unfortunately, such a draconian rule would hurt the owners of the cars more than VW. It would essentially force every car buyer to buy a new car. Plus, there are plenty of cars on the road built before 2000 that have even worse emissions than these VWs. Would you propose taking those cars off the road as well?
- scott_karana 11y ago

anigbrowl 11y ago

'Move fast and break the law' might not have been the best slogan to put on the wall....

woody223 11y ago
It's working alright for Uber ;)
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. When it comes to emissions controls, though, even the worst lawbreakers among us need to breathe.
  - DannyBee 11y ago
    "Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. " By whose standards/judgments?
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      That's a complicated question. But I'd start by pointing out that the taxi laws certainly don't have the consent of the governed behind them. If they did, Uber would never have taken such a big chunk of the taxis' market share. When the laws do not respect the people, the people will not respect the laws. That's not a statement of moral value, it's a statement of fact.
    - BurningFrog 11y ago
      Mine, among many others. You're free to see it differently. I think that makes it "arguable".

gsibble 11y ago

"It's all those damn engineers' fault."

johansch 11y ago

This sounds like such a German corporate reaction - almost as if it were a caricature - "they didn't follow the process - how can we be responsible? we better double down on process." How about failing in building a corporate culture that rewards openness and learning from failure? This gives me very little hope for VW, and to an extent, for Germany. These top of the crop german execs just don't get it.

alayne 11y ago
Is the incident with GM's ignition switches that killed 100 people the kind of learning from failure we should shoot for?
- johansch 11y ago
  Please read this: http://www.governing.com/columns/smart-mgmt/col-culture-openness-candor-critical-organizational-success.html http://www.governing.com/columns/smart-mgmt/col-culture-open... "Creating a culture of openness and candor is critical to organizational success. It takes a strong, concerted effort by leaders." "How could this icon of U.S. industry allow the ignition-switch problem to fester for a decade without recalling the faulty vehicles and without notifying federal authorities (as required) and the public? The answer seems to lie in the company's culture. For decades, GM was plagued with warring fiefdoms, so it wasn't in one's interest to surface problems in front of your colleagues. And even when problems were brought to senior managers' attention, action was often impeded by poor communications between GM units. As crisis-management expert Gerry Meyers puts it, "In any big organization, there's an effort by lower-level management to insulate upper-level management. And the more layers there are, the less [likely] that a very serious matter can get to the top."
- johansch 11y ago
  And come to think of it.. WTF! Do you seriously believe that what is wrong with German auto makers is that they don't have enough process? Come on... reality check please.

paulcole 11y ago

One man's rule breaking is another man's disruption.

vladsanchez 11y ago

Rulebreaking!?!?! They must be PuertoRicans! :-D Disclosure: I am PuertoRican

balls187 11y ago

Can German HN readers can explain this to me. My interpretation of German culture was that rule breaking was looked down upon. My own experience traveling in Germany was that rules were deliberately followed, for example, no one ever crossed the street until the Walk sign was present, regardless of it being busy. Honking your horn by an irritated driver happened only once in my 3 weeks there (and the cyclists took the driver to task for it). The name escapes me, but an expat friend of mine living in Germany mentioned there is a government group that is in charge of making sure posted signs follow strict laws (can't find this on Google). German engineering culture is known for high precision and quality. Made in Germany has the same brand power that Made in Japan, and Made in the US have. Given these stereotypes of German culture, to me, it seems out of sorts that VW (arguably one of the most public of German Companies) would have a culture of rule breaking.

yoodenvranx 11y ago
We Germans are not perfect at all. Yes, we are good at engineering and yes, we take our rules a bit more serious than other people, but all in all you will find the same problems here as anywhere else. The rulebreaking is just toned down a bit but it still exists.