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How Elmo Ruined Sesame Street
- webkike 11y agoAs with literally every article written by kotaku, oh my god I just don't care
- dragontamer 11y agoThe main problem with this article is that it makes the "Why Snoopy ruined Peanuts" article utterly redundant. Its clear that the author is just taking "Why popular character X ruined (show) he was from" as a formula. http://kotaku.com/how-snoopy-killed-peanuts-1724269473 http://kotaku.com/how-snoopy-killed-peanuts-1724269473 I guess its interesting from a sense of irony or maybe a creative exercise. But it almost feels like textbook "clickbait".
- batbomb 11y agoThe author wrote that article too. The author says he's a teacher, I'd be interested to know if he has children himself.
- DiabloD3 11y agoI agree with this. Kotaku articles have no place on the front page of HN, especially ones like this that don't understand the larger context of the program, and its inability to thrive in the "junk food media" environment that is being force fed to kids. If I ever have kids, I'm going to continue to not have TV in my home. They can read all the books I read when I was a kid, or watch select TV shows from the past 20+ years that aren't just constant pointless bullshit.
- asddubs 11y agoThere's many great modern shows, just like there's a lot of crap from the past. Try watching some steven universe, for example.
- gknoy 11y agoNetflix has amazing stuff for kids as well: Bill Nye, Magic Schoolbus, to name a few.
- fgsfds2015 11y agoI don't think Tumblr: The Show is something you should want to be influencing your kids.
- btilly 11y agoYes, there is always a mix, and the mix is always mostly garbage. But if you have a TV in the house, the tendency is just to watch whatever crap is on because it is easy. Any good current show will eventually become a good old show. And if it is good enough and matches my tastes well enough, I'll eventually hear enough about it that I choose to watch it. And I'm OK with that. I have enough going on in my life that I have no need to rush to watch things just because they are currently being released. So I believe you when you say that there are great modern shows. And I do not see that as a reason to get a TV. Disclaimer. I grew up without a TV back when that was really weird. As a grown-up I spent periods both with and without a TV. I have no TV by choice. I do have children, but youtube channels seem to fill the place in their lives that TV serves for most kids.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- LastZactionHero 11y agoI have the same gut reaction, but as counterpoint, I know some people that grew up with parents that really restricted viewing- not 'no tv at all', but close enough. Later, the parents conceded that the media blackout backfired, as their kid couldn't relate to a lot of the things their peers were talking about- even if it is 'pointless bullshit'. They weren't like a social pariah or anything, but to this day, they feel uncomfortable in those conversations where you recall tv/movies growing up. Not really defending tv, but there's probably a good middle ground that lets the kid still participate in their culture.
- Albright 11y agoHow Massive Amounts of Non-Gaming Content and Inundation by Perpetually Offended Millenials Ruined Kotaku
- webkike 11y agoIs it so wrong to want gaming news but not care about cosplay?
- minimaxir 11y agoAgree that Kotaku is bad in general, but it is not fair to unilaterally disavow the publication from HN. Some Kotaku authors are very, very good (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10460393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10460393 ) The bad Kotaku articles rarely get submitted, and the ones that do never get upvotes. The system works.
- silveira 11y agoI recently watched "I Am Big Bird: The Caroll Spinney Story" documentary and I had this impression that the show shifted towards a younger audience with Elmo. I wonder that this was probably related to a bigger audience on this age range.
- stevewilhelm 11y agoI understood the documentary to say that Sesame Street noticed that their audience was getting younger. In response to this age shift they introduced Elmo; a character that resonated to this new growing demographic.
- DrScump 11y agoCould they have cause and effect backwards? Perhaps the shift toward insipidness simply alienated older viewers at that time?
- djcjr 11y agoTo my mind, Jim Henson's death and the resulting loss of his voice, puppet characters, and leadership, dealt a blow to Sesame Street from which it has not really recovered.
- dang 11y agoIt took genius to blend the qualities Henson did, and the resulting ability not to get too stuck in sentimentality was a comedic superpower. The OP points out how some of the older Sesame Street monsters have an edgy quality to balance their cuddliness. That was distinctive of Henson. His regional TV commercials from the 1950s already showed something similar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3929121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3929121.
- gefh 11y agoI love the internet. I love that someone wrote a whole article on something so arbitrary. I'm not sure why it's on HN though.
- poofyleek 11y agoWorse are Mr. Noodle and his brother.
- dvere 11y agoCome on, anybody that has Christine Chenoweth as a sister can't be all bad...
- austenallred 11y agoThere is no substance on earth more addictive than Elmo is to a two year old. In most television shows and movies what people are looking for is somebody that represents them - call it an "avatar" if you must. When kids watch Sesame Street they relate directly to Elmo. He's younger, smaller, has an insatiable curiosity, and is in a permanent mode of questioning and discovery. He even has similar mannerisms to children - he laughs a lot, has lots of energy, and is frequently confused as to what's happening around him. The reason the author doesn't like Elmo is because Elmo acts like a two year old. The reason two year olds love Elmo is because Elmo acts like a two year old. Sesame Street was created for two-year-olds, not bitter Internet pundits.
- feld 11y agoThat's fine but when all they show on Sesame Street is Elmo skits your two year old at age six is still relating to a two year old.
- deveac 11y ago>The reason the author doesn't like Elmo is because he acts like a two year old. I think the author's reasons for not liking Elmo are actually the ones he stated and took an entire essay to carefully explain. And I find the author's detailed reasons compelling. I think there's something to be said in modeling behavior that you'd want a younger child to aspire to rather than just presenting them a mirror as they are today. I'm with him in feeling that it just isn't as challenging or valuable. I absolutely think the old show did a much better job of that.
- jMyles 11y agoI'm not particularly moved by this assessment. Two year olds are incredibly diverse. Elmo exhibits only certain, particular behaviors of a two-year-old: he is self-centered, demands everyone else's attention, and is mostly oblivious to the fact that he's part of a larger social dynamic. In the early days of Snuffy and Big Bird, they acted more like two-year-olds also, but they leaned on other qualities that are often evident in people who are learning language and movement: they were thoughtful, unafraid to say things that didn't make sense at first blush, and descriptive about their imaginations.
- n0us 11y agoJust waiting for the follow up clickbait "Sorry Kotaku, acutally ___insert controversial person___ ruined sesame street"
- qq66 11y agoThe tone is of course hyperbolic as it must be these days, but I do agree that Sesame Street used to have a very interesting adult/child dynamic, which may be gone (haven't watched the show in years). I always loved the interactions between Grover and Mr. Johnson... even as I see myself becoming more like Mr. Johnson every day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPLY9uxiss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQPLY9uxiss
- jMyles 11y agoI don't understand why folks think this is out-of-place on HN. It seems on target to me. It is evidence of an emergent media phenomenon (albeit a slow one) - that a single character on an iconic platform changed its dynamic enough to cause its identity to come into question. Because Sesame Street leveraged novelty and maturity, the emergence of a cutesy, immature, "it's all about MEEE!" type of character represents a sort of test case, and in this case, the evidence is that the show changed as the result.
- Splines 11y agoIt would have been interesting to explore characters as they age throughout the show. Given the shows longevity it could have been really interesting to have a varied set of characters age right along with the viewers. Children could identify with Elmo for their entire lives. The Elmo of today would be finishing school and starting a job, and only visiting occasionally. He would take a very different role than that of 20 years ago.
- goatforce5 11y agoThat would make reruns tricky to do and/or confusing.
- knicholes 11y agoAren't these characters those like Maria, Gordon, and Mr. Hooper?
- Splines 11y agoFor logistical reasons, not really. It's easier to maintain puppets vs trying to keep the same human actors tied to the show.
- gknoy 11y agoThe point is, Maria and Gordon __have__ been with the show for decades, and now their characters have kids. Similarly, some of the kids in earlier years still are involved as older kids. It's one thing I have really liked about the show, as it lets them show nuanced relationships (both in terms of jobs and family).
- amyjess 11y agoI'm just old enough to have watched Sesame Street when Grover was a big deal and Elmo had yet to become huge (late '80s), and he was the main character I glommmed onto then. I still don't get Elmo's appeal.
- brandonmenc 11y agoI LOVED Sesame Street, but have always hated Elmo - for exactly the reasons detailed in this article - and I'm glad I'm not the only one. Fortunately, I'm old enough to have watched Sesame Street before Elmo took over. As an aside, I wish someone would revive The Electric Company.
- reuven 11y agoThey tried. The new Electric Company lasted 1.5 seasons or so. It was totally new and different... and not nearly as addictive, funny, or clever as the original one.
- brandonmenc 11y agoMy mother claims I sat in front of the TV utterly hypnotized by the "phonetics shadows," and that it's how I learned to read. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQseUDQB2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQseUDQB2o Is there anything like this available for kids now? It's so stripped down and catchy that, even as an adult, I could watch these all day long.
- reuven 11y agoI bought the DVDs when they came out, about 10 years ago. Look for "The Best of the Electric Company." It was, and remains, totally brilliant. My two elder children loved it, and couldn't get enough. My son (who is now 10) never got into it, but I'll somehow forgive him. Really and truly, the Electric Company was a very, very clever show that mixed humor and education in a unique way. The company that produced these DVDs never imagined that children would be watching; they imagined it was only nostalgic adults. So the "best of" DVDs, when first produced, included condom ads! After enough parents protested that this wasn't the most appropriate kind of advertising to put on a children's DVD, the company issued new ones with more child-friendly advertising.
- firebones 11y agoI give a lot of credit to "The Electric Company" as well. Because the episodes were repeated so much, some of these memes still stick with me today, including "You Drive Me Up the Wall" which packed humor, double-meaning of phrases, idiom, and reading into one little skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eNoTF_hNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eNoTF_hNY
- vinceguidry 11y agoI liked the treatment of Sesame Street as a microcosm of celebrity. Of course the show would find the very first popular chord it hits and then jam on it with all the subtlety of Nickelback. There's way too much money in that, emotional maturity is bound to take a back seat. I can understand the lamentations, but really, if you were expecting your kids to learn the hard lessons of life from television programs, you deserve all the tantrums you get.
- krapp 11y agoI would expect children to learn to count and spell and, occasionally, how to deal with death, from Sesame Street. Unfortunately, it seems the show has become more about pushing merchandise to parents and pandering to celebrity than education, and this is worth complaining about.
- norea-armozel 11y agoHah, I always preferred Grover. Then again Elmo wasn't a thing in 1983.
- jessaustin 11y agoFor me, Oscar was always the best. Not only did he get to live in a garbage can, but he also disagreed with everyone all the time. My hero.
- norea-armozel 11y agoI liked Oscar too, but I'm weird too.
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- ksenzee 11y agoClickbait would be "You'll never believe which character ruined Sesame Street" or "10 reasons we hate Elmo". This is more of a "I have a thesis, it's not simple enough for a headline, but here's what the article is about" type of headline.
- desireco42 11y agoIt is very hard to put yourself in position of very young child and issue judgement on what toddlers would like. I couldn't stand Teletubies, I still can't. But young kids are fascinated and my late grandma loved them too. Who am I to judge.
- dhimes 11y agoTotally with you here. My kids were at the right age for elmo and Teletubbies when those phenomena got popular. Elmo "worked," but Teletubbies blew Elmo out of the park. My youngest would stop walking and stand transfixed at the TV when Teletubbies came on. It was positively creepy. A British friend said it was very controversial because of all the child psych research that went into capturing the kids' attention. The "Tinky Winky" controversy came along much later.
- roywiggins 11y agoIt was perfect watching when home from highschool with a fever, which does tend to reduce me to the emotional range of a toddler.
- mcphage 11y ago> issue judgement on what toddlers would like The issue here isn't really what toddlers like or don't like. The issue is, if you're going to sit your kid in front of a screen to watch something, what are they getting out of it? A 3- or 4-year old seeing 6-year old behavior in Big Bird sees a role model in how to behave. Seeing 3-year-old behavior in Elmo reinforces how they're already behaving.
- roel_v 11y ago2 or 3 year olds cannot learn empathy, their brains just aren't wired for it. It's like telling a wheelchair user 'here let me teach you how to run 100m in sub 10 secs'. Which is why I'm so dumbfounded by the comments agreeing with the article - it's based on the notion from 50 years ago that children are just adults who haven't been tought yet how to be adults. This is clear and plain nonsense, children and youth until ~ 25 years old (I realize I'm now antagonizing much of those reading this...) just don't have fully developed brains yet. Especially at lower ages it doesn't make sense to try to teach them things that they are physically incapable of learning.
- shmerl 11y agoIs that why Elmo is an evil Sesame Street Fighter character? http://flavourmachine.com/sesamefighter/ http://flavourmachine.com/sesamefighter/ (Inspired by http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sesame-Street-Fight-Elmo-Bison-148721564 http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sesame-Street-Fight-Elmo-Bison...).
- Animats 11y ago"I remember a storyline years ago that perfectly encapsulated this: Episode 3280, Season 26." Too much detail.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- bitwize 11y agoI'd rather a million Elmo-centric Sesame Street episodes than even one episode of Barney or Caillou. That said, every kid needs some old-school, Elmo-free Sesame Street and Mister Rogers. (No, "Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood" is not the same; it's insipid and dumb by comparison.) Also, back in the day, Square One TV had a police-procedural parody called Mathnet that was still loads better than network TV's attempt at a mathematical-cop show for adults (Numb3rs). It literally couldn't get any better for a kid than PBS in the 70s or 80s.
- specialist 11y agoThe Muppets and Sesame Street is children's programmable watchable by parents. Something families could watch together. Pure genius. Hunt's Elmo character broke that. As a parent, that's what ruined Sesame Street.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago> Also, back in the day, Square One TV had a police-procedural parody called Mathnet I remember that; it was awesome. Drenched in cheesiness, but it served its goal, and it did manage the "tainment" part of "edutainment".
- oddevan 11y agoThe story you're about to hear is a fib, but it's fact.
- soylentcola 11y agoDon't wanna be pedantic but I think the line was: "The story you're about to hear is a fib, but it's short. The names are made up but the problems are real." Honestly surprised I remember that gag since it's been ages since I watched that show but I did love those segments. It was like the Square One answer to 3-2-1 Contact's "Bloodhound Gang".
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
- BinaryIdiot 11y agoAs a father I agree Elmo is essentially the never ending toddler who does too much on his own on Sesame street. He really does need someone a little more mature than him to help teach him lessons. But having said that I've watched far too much Sesame street and yes Elmo usually gets more time than the rest but not always. The author paints a picture like Elmo always gets most of the time but the truth is he isn't played THAT much more than the others. Even in the hurricane episode that is cited in the article Big Bird was on screen longer than twice the time of any other monster. So yes he needs to be downplayed a little bit but the article is over the top as well. In fact watching many of the episodes in the past 5 years and you'd think Abby was gunning for Elmo's spot; she gets quite a lot of screen time especially with fairy school.
- thedavinci2000 11y agoHorrible Rant: As a kid of the eighties You could say that I was their target audience and yet the show never appealed to me. It always gave me the creeps. Somebody else here mentioned Mr. Rogers and that one is even creepier. I felt like it was trying to lure me to his neighborhood to do bad things to me. Sorry but to this day I still cannot see the appeal of these shows. Why did you like it?
- KirinDave 11y agoThe number of people who are quick to jump unquestioningly on this and say, "It was better before" are... well it bums me out. Sesame Street's role in child development has changed radically as the general opinion on how TV should interact with kids has changed. These kids shows have been pushed down the age bracket, appealing to younger markets where demand is a lot greater for the content. Older kids shows? They exist in the spaces between cartoon network hot properties, and do a good job of confronting the complex issues kids will face from 4-12. The same is true of The Mr. Rogers->Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. They're tuned for totally different age ranges and requirements. I dunno how many of you are parents. I have a 15 month old daughter. A constant chime of the following information is reiterated by child care consulting, doctors, and developmental evaluators: - Sensory experiences are more important than anything right now. - Emotional stability is more important than anything. - Disregard the advice about "no screen time." Screens shouldn't be a substitute for parenting, but kids can learn to use tablets startlingly early in life and interactive education is provably better than passive education. In some specific subjects, interactive solo play is superior even to parentally guided play. Let's also not forget: This article is just false. The idea that no one ever corrects Elmo? Totally wrong. Elmo gets a lot of screen time, but over the last year we've seen a huge amount of investment in a lot of other characters. Cookie Monster, Abby's complexity, and most importantly a huge increase in the time humans spend on sesame street talking. The idea that Seasme Street doesn't touch on tricky subjects is false. Just last week the PBS Kids app rotated the episode on "Minne Myna". It's a two-sided story. On the one hand, Big Bird makes a case to bird court that someone else can't steal his nest just because he left it. "Finders Keepers is a bad rule." But it's also trying to talk to kids and say it is okay to be sad and that they SHOULD be sad if they lose their homes. The episode is delicately touching on the subject of home eviction. Someone who has never been evicted might not even notice, but anyone who has lost a home will immediately realize what Big Bird's singing about. Big Bird gets a happy ending, but the episode leaves reminding kids that many other birds didn't get their nests back and that it's okay to be sad. I see so much of these kinds of articles. All I can do is despair as my generation begins to make the exact same mistake as our outrageous parents who had very similar things to say about childhood programming which we all wax nostalgically on now.
- ideonexus 11y ago
- nzealand 11y agoAdults are no longer the target audience for these shows. Malcolm Gladwell touched on this in the Tipping Point. Sesame Street pioneered the use of TV to entertain and educate toddlers. But a lot of the original content was beyond the comprehension of younger children. While Elmo is annoying to us, he is perfect at keeping the attention of a young child, and while he has their attention he can teach them things.
- hcayless 11y agoI dunno. I remember loving Sesame Street as a kid, but it never clicked with either of my children. Neither of them could stand to watch a whole episode. Elmo was briefly popular in our house, but only briefly. Kids mostly aren't stupid. And the smart ones in particular know when they're being pandered to.
- mfoy_ 11y ago>while he has their attention he can teach them things. The author's point was that he isn't, though-- at least not good things. He's self-centered and immature; he avoids things that are "hard" and acts selfishly.
- anon4 11y agoThe most shocking thing to me from this article was that Big Bird is actually male. I always saw her as an older sister character. It could have something to do with the fact that "bird" is feminine in my language. That would also explain why the local translation used the gender-neutral diminutive form of "bird"...
- grogenaut 11y agoSummary: These things I loved as a kid are now slightly different and therefor RUINED. In an unrelated note, get off of my lawn you damned kids. Seriously, more hard hitting journalism by the folks that brought us "Snaktaku reviews the Big Mac" and "We really pissed off some game devs and had to buy our own copy of games" authors.
- delecti 11y agoI admit to having never watched much Sesame Street, but I think that's a pretty inaccurate characterization of the article. There are several convincing examples of the point the author's trying to make.
- grogenaut 11y agoSure, except Sesame Street and it's impact is incredibly well researched and this article is based on one guy's book and Kotaku trying to generate page views. I'd rather read the studies.
- dang 11y agoIt's a fine article, and no doubt the studies are fine studies. There's lots of room for both.
- guelo 11y agoRepublicans killed funding for public TV so now the shows have to earn their own money which means the primary concern is no longer teaching but how to make money via toys and DVDs, etc. which leads to finding the most addictive character and making him a star. Because capitalism ruins everything.
- WalterBright 11y agoCapitalism created the Beatles :-)
- DrScump 11y agoRepublicans killed funding for public TV When, exactly, was this?
- MichaelMoser123 11y agoBecause capitalism you get to play with nice computers - socialism was never good at that. You also get to buy things that customers want, not stuff that some detached bureaucrat thinks that you should buy. However you do have a point - they do have to sell toys and a ten year old will probably not buy a big bird doll. This requirement causes them to invent more addictive characters, so as to spin off dolls that younger kids will wish to own. On the other side they may have tried to push Ernie and Bert dolls to teenagers, this might have created a more diverse offering. Another point is that the principle that work with consumer markets are not very good when applied to education: the target audience here still has a limited ability to evaluate your effort as an educator...
- MichaelMoser123 11y agohttp://www.sesameworkshop.org/about-us/financials/ http://www.sesameworkshop.org/about-us/financials/ here it says that 31% of the funding comes from government/corporate support; Also they don't seem to be making that much money; them bloody capitalists are rather poor themselves. I guess Dora is doing better in terms of finances - they must have more limited expenses. http://www.sesameworkshop.org/wp_install/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FY-2015-Financial-Statements.pdf http://www.sesameworkshop.org/wp_install/wp-content/uploads/...
- hendekagon 11y agoI never liked Big Bird. What a twat.
- mathiasben 11y agoSeems there would be a massive market for a Classic PBS Kids channel.
- rjbwork 11y agoA great article, but why is this on Kotaku? I thought they were a video game/geek culture publication. It seems to have far more depth and thought put into it than most of their tripe as well.
- ubernostrum 11y agoWell, they recently had a bit of a scandal when it came out that some large game studios are blacklisting them over repeated leaks of internal information. So maybe they need to broaden a bit now they no longer have access to as much gaming stuff.
- DigitalSea 11y agoI completely agree. I can not stand Elmo as a character. He lacks depth and is really annoying. However, observing my 1.5 year old niece when Elmo comes on, you can see why he is the popular Muppet. Kids love his annoying voice and silliness which is why Elmo will continue to be at the forefront of Sesame Street. I saw the episode where they talked about Mr. Hooper's death. It was the saddest thing I had seen in a very long time. Very emotional and probably the most honest episode ever made.
- Shorel 11y agoAre you telling me Cosmos was not a kids show ?
- McGlockenshire 11y agoIt entirely depends on the kid. Nova did a series on the formation and geological history of North America, and the local station happened to air it following their Sunday morning children's programming. My six year old sat through each episode entirely enraptured with it, and he asked all sorts of questions after. My younger kid, not so much. I know Cosmos is going to be above his ability to completely understand, but I think it'd probably keep his attention and prompt questions.
- hyperpape 11y agoAnecdata: my not-quite 6 year old daughter has watched Cosmos repeatedly in the past few months. She likes it a lot.
- leoc 11y agoTL;DR: Elmo is the Wolverine of Sesame Street.
- marshray 11y agoSo Elmo is basically the Jar Jar Binks of Sesame Street.
- forgettableuser 11y agoActually, the article made me think Elmo is Nermal, The World's Cutest Kittycat from Garfield. We just need Oscar the Grouch to start mailing Elmo to Abu Dhabi all the time. Problem solved.
- marshray 11y agoElmo in Caliphate-Land.
- ramanamit1234 11y agoMy kids, 7 & 2, have never seen Sesame Street. I used to watch it in my youth. My kids jump to Netflix or Mickey Mouse clubhouse on YouTube. May Elmo did ruin SS?
- doug1001 11y agomy vote for the gold standard of kid's educational tv is "Schoolhouse Rock" Pretty much an entire primary school education just from that handful of shorts--civics ("I'm just a bill") grammar ("conjunction junction, what's your function") and math ("my hero, zero") to this day 100% of my understanding of the US legislative process is from "I'm just a bill"--eg, "yes i am only a bill and i'm sitting her on capital hill" i heard on NPR once that the guy who conceived and wrote those, was/is a jazz musician, and when he would perform in nightclubs, people in the audience would recognize this voice request songs from SchoolHouse Rock.