5 ms·

"After all, drivers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy over their publicly-visible plate number while driving down public roads." Random people ca

by vmarsy 11y ago

"After all, drivers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy over their publicly-visible plate number while driving down public roads." Random people can see my license plate but they don't know who I am. Today only people who know my license plate AND happen to see it randomly know I'm there at this moment, which is a reasonable expectation of privacy for me. Now if there was a website where you can query a partially complete trip history of any license plate completely void that privacy. Think about such a tool in the hands of a paparazzi for instance...

nitrogen 11y ago
I wonder if an extremely range-limited RFID plate with a challenge-response system that only local LEAs can read (modulo leaks, of course) would be better. We'd lose the ability for people reporting a crime to say "plate XYZ on green car at location A just did Q illegal thing", but maybe "green car at location A just did Q illegal thing" would be good enough.
- Johnny555 11y ago
  It's hard to have an extremely ranged limited RFID plate when only half the range is determined by the RFID chip itself -- a sufficiently large antenna on the receiver can increase the range. Granted a passport that's supposed to readable from centimeters away will probably never be read a couple hundred meters away, but a license plate that can be read from a few meters away could be made readable from a hundred meters away. Though I guess a smarter RFID plate could use latency to decide if a reader was "close enough", but that would make reliable reads harder since it would require several round trips.
  - bigiain 11y ago
    Passport RFID reading demonstrated from 217 feet at BlackHat 2010 with just $2500 worth of eBay gear: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2215057/wireless/bad-guys-could-read-rfid-passports-at-217-feet--maybe-a-lot-more.html http://www.networkworld.com/article/2215057/wireless/bad-guy... The guy reckons 2 miles is theoretically possible with HAM radio-operator-legal transmit power (1.5kW) and the right antennas.
jMyles 11y ago
So taking a photo of (or making a memory of having seen) doesn't violate your privacy, but publishing that information does? I'm not criticizing you; just clarifying. These are tough questions. I tend to think that if you're in the clear to document something (ie, it's in public), then you are in the clear to publish it. Otherwise, we have a mess of free speech boundaries.
- amagumori 11y ago
  well, your dichotomy is fundamentally flawed imo. it's not "having information but keeping it private" vs. "having information and publishing it to the public". the real issue is "a person who knows me well enough to know my license plate number can know my location at one point in time if they happen to be in the immediate area" vs. "all people who can find my license plate number can know my location at all points in time". the dichotomy is "everyone in the checkout line can see what i'm buying" vs. "all people who know my first and last name can view my entire credit card transaction history".
  - VanillaLime 11y ago
    I guess I don't see the distinction. If I see your license plate at the supermarket and post online that "license plate AAAAAA was seen at Whole Foods on December 6th", how is that qualitatively different from a license plate reader scanning your plate and storing that "license plate AAAAAA was at coordinates XX.XXXX, XX.XXXX at 2015-12-06?" Unless you want to draw a line between information which is directly observed by people and information which is collected by machine, this seems like a difference of degree, not of kind.
    - msandford 11y ago
      Quantitative differences eventually become qualitative ones. Nobody cares about any one particular data point being published; it's the collection of all of them that's revealing. See the "metadata" debate that's been going on for a year or two now. I suspect that most folks would be willing to self-publish their checking account balance on one random day. But every day for a year, or their whole lives? Probably not. You have to marry me if you want to have that kind of information.
TACIXAT 11y ago
Just FYI, you can pull an address from a license plate for about 40 dollars. We're all driving around with our addresses on our cars, there's no way to avoid that.
- lifeisstillgood 11y ago
  Err, how? That's (afaik) a very privileged ability for law enforcement. I should not be able to get your home location or name from just your number plate
  - TACIXAT 11y ago
    I've used a service called docusearch. I believe it's a network of private investigators across the US. You have to select from a few "permissible purposes". I've used it two or three times to pull plates of people dealing drugs on my street. I used the "Motor Vehicle Safety" category for these. I live right on a county line, so it helps me direct my calls to the appropriate police department, also, I like to know who these people are in case something worse ever happens.
- lordnacho 11y ago
  Really depends on what country you're in. Where I live people can look up a plate for free online. In fact I've just done that with my car and it works. Has my name and address. The only gate is a captcha.
  - breakingcups 11y ago
    Can I ask you what country you live in? No problem if you'd prefer not to disclose of course.
    - lordnacho 11y ago
      Switzerland. You can actually look up random people's numbers, because all the plates are two letters for the Canton, plus a number starting at 1. So for instance "ZG 888" is a valid plate, as is "ZH 12345"
ender89 11y ago
or any one with an ax to grind with a political figure. You manage to jeopardize a senator or two's privacy (and more importantly, security of them and their family) and you'll see legislation protecting everyone from this kind of technology tomorrow.
- tomschlick 11y ago
  Protection already exists. Police, judges, or other VIPs can have their info blanked out with the first level checks at the DMV.
  - newman314 11y ago
    If only the rules were applied equally... Why should I not get the same level of privacy?
    - tomschlick 11y ago
      I believe in some jurisdictions you can if you have a verifiable justification like death threats or stalkers. Other than that I don't think you'd be able to.
- bigiain 11y ago
  Yeah, you'll find senators and their families become exempt from displaying licence plates...
bigiain 11y ago
You know the towtruck/repo industry currently compiles exactly this kind of dataset, and trades/sells it to each other? I have no doubt that well funded paparazzi already have access to exactly the tool you describe. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/automobiles/28REPO.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/automobiles/28REPO.html?_r... http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/license-plate-data-not-just-cops-private-companies-are-tracking-f6C10684677 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/license-plate-data-not-jus... http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4338.asp http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4338.asp

by vmarsy 11y ago

nitrogen 11y ago

I wonder if an extremely range-limited RFID plate with a challenge-response system that only local LEAs can read (modulo leaks, of course) would be better. We'd lose the ability for people reporting a crime to say "plate XYZ on green car at location A just did Q illegal thing", but maybe "green car at location A just did Q illegal thing" would be good enough.

Johnny555 11y ago
It's hard to have an extremely ranged limited RFID plate when only half the range is determined by the RFID chip itself -- a sufficiently large antenna on the receiver can increase the range. Granted a passport that's supposed to readable from centimeters away will probably never be read a couple hundred meters away, but a license plate that can be read from a few meters away could be made readable from a hundred meters away. Though I guess a smarter RFID plate could use latency to decide if a reader was "close enough", but that would make reliable reads harder since it would require several round trips.
- bigiain 11y ago
  Passport RFID reading demonstrated from 217 feet at BlackHat 2010 with just $2500 worth of eBay gear: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2215057/wireless/bad-guys-could-read-rfid-passports-at-217-feet--maybe-a-lot-more.html http://www.networkworld.com/article/2215057/wireless/bad-guy... The guy reckons 2 miles is theoretically possible with HAM radio-operator-legal transmit power (1.5kW) and the right antennas.

jMyles 11y ago

So taking a photo of (or making a memory of having seen) doesn't violate your privacy, but publishing that information does? I'm not criticizing you; just clarifying. These are tough questions. I tend to think that if you're in the clear to document something (ie, it's in public), then you are in the clear to publish it. Otherwise, we have a mess of free speech boundaries.

amagumori 11y ago
well, your dichotomy is fundamentally flawed imo. it's not "having information but keeping it private" vs. "having information and publishing it to the public". the real issue is "a person who knows me well enough to know my license plate number can know my location at one point in time if they happen to be in the immediate area" vs. "all people who can find my license plate number can know my location at all points in time". the dichotomy is "everyone in the checkout line can see what i'm buying" vs. "all people who know my first and last name can view my entire credit card transaction history".
- VanillaLime 11y ago
  I guess I don't see the distinction. If I see your license plate at the supermarket and post online that "license plate AAAAAA was seen at Whole Foods on December 6th", how is that qualitatively different from a license plate reader scanning your plate and storing that "license plate AAAAAA was at coordinates XX.XXXX, XX.XXXX at 2015-12-06?" Unless you want to draw a line between information which is directly observed by people and information which is collected by machine, this seems like a difference of degree, not of kind.
  - msandford 11y ago
    Quantitative differences eventually become qualitative ones. Nobody cares about any one particular data point being published; it's the collection of all of them that's revealing. See the "metadata" debate that's been going on for a year or two now. I suspect that most folks would be willing to self-publish their checking account balance on one random day. But every day for a year, or their whole lives? Probably not. You have to marry me if you want to have that kind of information.

TACIXAT 11y ago

Just FYI, you can pull an address from a license plate for about 40 dollars. We're all driving around with our addresses on our cars, there's no way to avoid that.

lifeisstillgood 11y ago
Err, how? That's (afaik) a very privileged ability for law enforcement. I should not be able to get your home location or name from just your number plate
- TACIXAT 11y ago
  I've used a service called docusearch. I believe it's a network of private investigators across the US. You have to select from a few "permissible purposes". I've used it two or three times to pull plates of people dealing drugs on my street. I used the "Motor Vehicle Safety" category for these. I live right on a county line, so it helps me direct my calls to the appropriate police department, also, I like to know who these people are in case something worse ever happens.
lordnacho 11y ago
Really depends on what country you're in. Where I live people can look up a plate for free online. In fact I've just done that with my car and it works. Has my name and address. The only gate is a captcha.
- breakingcups 11y ago
  Can I ask you what country you live in? No problem if you'd prefer not to disclose of course.
  - lordnacho 11y ago
    Switzerland. You can actually look up random people's numbers, because all the plates are two letters for the Canton, plus a number starting at 1. So for instance "ZG 888" is a valid plate, as is "ZH 12345"

ender89 11y ago

or any one with an ax to grind with a political figure. You manage to jeopardize a senator or two's privacy (and more importantly, security of them and their family) and you'll see legislation protecting everyone from this kind of technology tomorrow.

tomschlick 11y ago
Protection already exists. Police, judges, or other VIPs can have their info blanked out with the first level checks at the DMV.
- newman314 11y ago
  If only the rules were applied equally... Why should I not get the same level of privacy?
  - tomschlick 11y ago
    I believe in some jurisdictions you can if you have a verifiable justification like death threats or stalkers. Other than that I don't think you'd be able to.
bigiain 11y ago
Yeah, you'll find senators and their families become exempt from displaying licence plates...

bigiain 11y ago

You know the towtruck/repo industry currently compiles exactly this kind of dataset, and trades/sells it to each other? I have no doubt that well funded paparazzi already have access to exactly the tool you describe. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/automobiles/28REPO.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/automobiles/28REPO.html?_r... http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/license-plate-data-not-just-cops-private-companies-are-tracking-f6C10684677 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/license-plate-data-not-jus... http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4338.asp http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4338.asp