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I know HN user gwern did some work partially documenting the forums. It was an interesting place to be, especially towards the beginning. I feel that most of u

I know HN user gwern did some work partially documenting the forums. It was an interesting place to be, especially towards the beginning. I feel that most of us would've supported violence against those cooperating with law enforcement.

Absentinsomniac 11y ago
I still feel like there were lines most didn't want crossed, however.
- chillwaves 11y ago
  Exactly. Otherwise you become the cartels in Mexico.
laarc 11y ago
Setting aside personal bias: Kudos for admitting that. It takes a lot of courage to put your beliefs out in the open, or even to talk about the beliefs of a group you once identified with. I feel that most of us would've supported violence against those cooperating with law enforcement. Could you help me understand that mindset? It seems like violence is one reason we as a species took hundreds of thousands of years to discover (or at least to harness) the scientific method. For the first time, we're now in a position to detect a big rock headed straight for Earth, and then actually have any nonzero chance of doing something to change the situation. Studying history, one plausible hypothesis we're in this situation might be: Funnel all of the smartest people together, and figure out a way to let them work together for a very long time on the same kinds of problems. And to let smart people work together, it's necessary to have systems in place to suppress violence. In short, law enforcement. There have been abuses of power, but on the whole, law enforcement seems like one of the main reasons we're well-off today. So that's where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to be overbearing or say X is bad and Y is good -- I apologize if I'm failing. It's just the opposite: I'm interested, and open-minded, to understand how various intelligent people could conclude "It's us or them, and if you're cooperating with law enforcement, you deserve violence." Would you help me to understand the community's viewpoint? Was there any nuance, or is it as simple as "they are traitors, therefore X" mindset? There must be something if so many intelligent people somehow started to believe this, right? If someone reading this feels like replying anonymously, make a new HN account using Tor. Your reply will be marked [dead] to begin with, but those of us with showdead enabled will see them. The community can now vouch for dead-but-thoughtful comments, which makes them visible to everyone. This is the type of topic that usually devolves into a flamewar, but maybe thoughtful conversation has a chance.
- Absentinsomniac 11y ago
  I can try to give a reply. You have to remember what SR was for. These were people who were not only using SR, but active in the community as well. They were mostly engaged in illegal activities, a good deal of whom were active offline as well taking part in illegal activities. Law enforcement is a constant point of anxiety for every single person involved in this process. If someone who you thought you could trust is now actively threatening your freedom (or access to a substance, which is also a form of freedom), you take action to prevent this. In general, I don't remember the mindset actually being "pro violence" in an abstract sense, but it was hostile to law enforcement because law enforcement represented the end of ones freedom. And they weren't wrong. The drug war was (and is) a very real thing. I think it goes without saying that most were for the freedom to consume, produce, distribute, and use any drugs they see fit. Law enforcement were encroaching on that freedom. They were the aggressors coming in and disrupting a pretty peaceful process. In many cases, unprovoked. I don't think that's much of a misrepresentation.
  - laarc 11y ago
    (Trying to figure out how to reply without sounding like I'm challenging an idea or putting someone on the defensive... All I can think of is: Thank you for the reply. Know that I respect everyone's viewpoint, and that we're only trying to chase a mystery.) If someone who you thought you could trust is now actively threatening your freedom (or access to a substance, which is also a form of freedom), you take action to prevent this. So I've spent five minutes mentally putting myself in that situation, and... I don't know. Am I just a coward? It's important in the abstract sense to fight for freedoms, and perhaps in the literal sense when one system (i.e. country) is at war with another. But the idea of taking a bat to someone's head for betraying my trust in them is... Well, that's really the question to explore, right? How could someone actually do that, let alone approve of someone else doing that? The question is far too pointed, though. Just trying to understand.
    - Absentinsomniac 11y ago
      Well, I don't want to give you the wrong idea. I'm not an authority here. (I'd be a little dumb commenting with this account if I were.) My activity was very minimal, to the point where I doubt law enforcement would find it worth their while even if they knew who I was and the extent of my "involvement". I'm replying because those more involved might not want to share their (more informed) experiences for obvious reasons. In my experience, at the lower levels I think the vast majority of the community wouldn't have actually done anything. You don't have to do anything to sit behind a keyboard and "support" the idea of an informant getting knocked off or roughed up. How could they justify supporting that kind of violence? In my opinion, the place had kind of a revolutionary appeal. Like the darkmarkets were going to change everything. How could the system maintain these dangerous and harmful laws if we are here, operating in plain sight? I'm sure that would only be bolstered by the extreme convenience and safety the whole thing provided. Nobody really wanted to go back to the old way of buying and selling, for a lot of them online had been their only actual experiences in this area. Further up the chain, some of those guys had serious amounts of money involved. Some had people under (or worse, over) who depended on access to this site. There was tremendous financial stake involved. Further, I remember a lot of people felt that there were people in the community who would actually follow through with this sort of thing had there been enough actionable intelligence. I'd be surprised if there weren't. Or they could just hire a hitman. It seemed like a doable thing to have some big-deal drug dealer or one of his guys do something like this. This is literally just speculation though, as there was no public discussion that I ever saw involving anything resembling this. I'm pretty sure at least some of the people would have objected on the grounds that it might draw even more LE attention to the place. I remember reading some discussion going on about one of the darknet sites that shut down and stole everyones money. A lot of people wanted the stolen coins tracked down so they could go after them and serve them justice. Some people thought it would actually happen. Others thought even if they were found, nobody would do anything. Who really knows.
mkelley82 11y ago
I am reminded of the quote ""Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry
- tedunangst 11y ago
  Give me liberty or give them death?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Absentinsomniac 11y ago

I still feel like there were lines most didn't want crossed, however.

chillwaves 11y ago
Exactly. Otherwise you become the cartels in Mexico.

laarc 11y ago

Setting aside personal bias: Kudos for admitting that. It takes a lot of courage to put your beliefs out in the open, or even to talk about the beliefs of a group you once identified with. I feel that most of us would've supported violence against those cooperating with law enforcement. Could you help me understand that mindset? It seems like violence is one reason we as a species took hundreds of thousands of years to discover (or at least to harness) the scientific method. For the first time, we're now in a position to detect a big rock headed straight for Earth, and then actually have any nonzero chance of doing something to change the situation. Studying history, one plausible hypothesis we're in this situation might be: Funnel all of the smartest people together, and figure out a way to let them work together for a very long time on the same kinds of problems. And to let smart people work together, it's necessary to have systems in place to suppress violence. In short, law enforcement. There have been abuses of power, but on the whole, law enforcement seems like one of the main reasons we're well-off today. So that's where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to be overbearing or say X is bad and Y is good -- I apologize if I'm failing. It's just the opposite: I'm interested, and open-minded, to understand how various intelligent people could conclude "It's us or them, and if you're cooperating with law enforcement, you deserve violence." Would you help me to understand the community's viewpoint? Was there any nuance, or is it as simple as "they are traitors, therefore X" mindset? There must be something if so many intelligent people somehow started to believe this, right? If someone reading this feels like replying anonymously, make a new HN account using Tor. Your reply will be marked [dead] to begin with, but those of us with showdead enabled will see them. The community can now vouch for dead-but-thoughtful comments, which makes them visible to everyone. This is the type of topic that usually devolves into a flamewar, but maybe thoughtful conversation has a chance.

Absentinsomniac 11y ago
I can try to give a reply. You have to remember what SR was for. These were people who were not only using SR, but active in the community as well. They were mostly engaged in illegal activities, a good deal of whom were active offline as well taking part in illegal activities. Law enforcement is a constant point of anxiety for every single person involved in this process. If someone who you thought you could trust is now actively threatening your freedom (or access to a substance, which is also a form of freedom), you take action to prevent this. In general, I don't remember the mindset actually being "pro violence" in an abstract sense, but it was hostile to law enforcement because law enforcement represented the end of ones freedom. And they weren't wrong. The drug war was (and is) a very real thing. I think it goes without saying that most were for the freedom to consume, produce, distribute, and use any drugs they see fit. Law enforcement were encroaching on that freedom. They were the aggressors coming in and disrupting a pretty peaceful process. In many cases, unprovoked. I don't think that's much of a misrepresentation.
- laarc 11y ago
  (Trying to figure out how to reply without sounding like I'm challenging an idea or putting someone on the defensive... All I can think of is: Thank you for the reply. Know that I respect everyone's viewpoint, and that we're only trying to chase a mystery.) If someone who you thought you could trust is now actively threatening your freedom (or access to a substance, which is also a form of freedom), you take action to prevent this. So I've spent five minutes mentally putting myself in that situation, and... I don't know. Am I just a coward? It's important in the abstract sense to fight for freedoms, and perhaps in the literal sense when one system (i.e. country) is at war with another. But the idea of taking a bat to someone's head for betraying my trust in them is... Well, that's really the question to explore, right? How could someone actually do that, let alone approve of someone else doing that? The question is far too pointed, though. Just trying to understand.
  - Absentinsomniac 11y ago
    Well, I don't want to give you the wrong idea. I'm not an authority here. (I'd be a little dumb commenting with this account if I were.) My activity was very minimal, to the point where I doubt law enforcement would find it worth their while even if they knew who I was and the extent of my "involvement". I'm replying because those more involved might not want to share their (more informed) experiences for obvious reasons. In my experience, at the lower levels I think the vast majority of the community wouldn't have actually done anything. You don't have to do anything to sit behind a keyboard and "support" the idea of an informant getting knocked off or roughed up. How could they justify supporting that kind of violence? In my opinion, the place had kind of a revolutionary appeal. Like the darkmarkets were going to change everything. How could the system maintain these dangerous and harmful laws if we are here, operating in plain sight? I'm sure that would only be bolstered by the extreme convenience and safety the whole thing provided. Nobody really wanted to go back to the old way of buying and selling, for a lot of them online had been their only actual experiences in this area. Further up the chain, some of those guys had serious amounts of money involved. Some had people under (or worse, over) who depended on access to this site. There was tremendous financial stake involved. Further, I remember a lot of people felt that there were people in the community who would actually follow through with this sort of thing had there been enough actionable intelligence. I'd be surprised if there weren't. Or they could just hire a hitman. It seemed like a doable thing to have some big-deal drug dealer or one of his guys do something like this. This is literally just speculation though, as there was no public discussion that I ever saw involving anything resembling this. I'm pretty sure at least some of the people would have objected on the grounds that it might draw even more LE attention to the place. I remember reading some discussion going on about one of the darknet sites that shut down and stole everyones money. A lot of people wanted the stolen coins tracked down so they could go after them and serve them justice. Some people thought it would actually happen. Others thought even if they were found, nobody would do anything. Who really knows.

mkelley82 11y ago

I am reminded of the quote ""Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

tedunangst 11y ago
Give me liberty or give them death?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]