5 ms·

This is why it was really disappointing that Apple had to abandon ZFS. ZFS is one of the best file systems available and because Oracle owns it it is virtually

by gnu8 11y ago

This is why it was really disappointing that Apple had to abandon ZFS. ZFS is one of the best file systems available and because Oracle owns it it is virtually unusable in most contexts. I wonder if Apple can afford to buy out Oracle at this point, take ZFS and wind up the useless parts.

cowsandmilk 11y ago
Apple abandoned ZFS when Steve Jobs was still alive. Larry Ellison has frequently described Steve Jobs as one of his best friends whom he frequently went on walks with. The idea that Steve could not have gotten Larry to license ZFS seems crazy to me.
- umanwizard 11y ago
  Did Jobs really know/care about technical details like what filesystem OS X used?
  - eli 11y ago
    At one point it was a significant bullet point in the list of features being added to OS X Server. It was a big deal. I'm sure he was aware of it. http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-announces-zfs-on-snow-leopard/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-announces-zfs-on-snow-leo...
    - dlitz 11y ago
      I used OS X Server in 2008. It had major quality issues that seemed to only get worse with subsequent releases. Several advertised features accessible from the UI didn't work or straight-up broke things. I doubt Jobs paid much attention to it.
  - rdancer 11y ago
    Why would you think he wasn't? Many anecdotes mention him micromanaging minute details, and many of the things he mentions in keynotes are highly technical as well as low-level.
    - umanwizard 11y ago
      I didn't have a prior belief either way; I was asking out of genuine curiosity.
- tw04 11y ago
  ZFS was in the middle of a lawsuit at the time. Larry may have been willing to license it, but I doubt he was willing to indemnify.
- rsynnott 11y ago
  I'm sure the lawyers were not too keen to depend on a personal relationship to smooth over their dealings with Oracle, a company known in large part for suing people in novel ways.
freck 11y ago
Oracle's ownership was not the problem (it was actually Sun's at the time Apple was working on it); NetApp's patent lawsuit was.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
KirinDave 11y ago
I mean, there is http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_Page http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_Page and FreeBSD has been proving the implementations reliability for some time now. Apple could adopt it. They don't. That's probably because the desktop OS is on life support, and there are indications Apple wants to abandon it in favor of a migration to a wholly iOS model.
- empthought 11y ago
  There are no such indications.
  - KirinDave 11y ago
    The derelict OS, continued lockdown of OSX, UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement", the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store, the OSX store letting a cert expire. Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pro, which is very clearly a vision of computing that is more like iOS.
    - empthought 11y ago
      > The derelict OS What? It has a major release every year. Arguably that's too often. > continued lockdown of OS X An indication of long-term investment in OS X. If they wanted to move people to iOS, they wouldn't bother. > UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement" There is almost no UI convergence. Do you even use an OS X system? The iPad Pro is only a potential laptop replacement for certain niches; for non-power-users it's more of an iPad replacement. > the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store Has nothing to do with the operating system. > the OSX store letting a cert expire. Has nothing to do with the operating system. > Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pro, which is very clearly a vision of computing that is more like iOS. Notebooks as a whole are stagnant. Apple manages to make much more money, on essentially the same hardware as everyone else, simply by investing in their brand by spending a little more time on industrial design and the operating system. They would be fools to change anything about that arrangement.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ScottBurson 11y ago
I think ZFS would still need some work to be a good consumer filesystem. Most notably, they would have to remove the restriction that you can't expand a pool by adding devices -- the way you have to do it now (swap in a larger device for one existing device, resilver, and repeat) is just a non-starter.

by gnu8 11y ago

cowsandmilk 11y ago

Apple abandoned ZFS when Steve Jobs was still alive. Larry Ellison has frequently described Steve Jobs as one of his best friends whom he frequently went on walks with. The idea that Steve could not have gotten Larry to license ZFS seems crazy to me.

umanwizard 11y ago
Did Jobs really know/care about technical details like what filesystem OS X used?
- eli 11y ago
  At one point it was a significant bullet point in the list of features being added to OS X Server. It was a big deal. I'm sure he was aware of it. http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-announces-zfs-on-snow-leopard/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-announces-zfs-on-snow-leo...
  - dlitz 11y ago
    I used OS X Server in 2008. It had major quality issues that seemed to only get worse with subsequent releases. Several advertised features accessible from the UI didn't work or straight-up broke things. I doubt Jobs paid much attention to it.
- rdancer 11y ago
  Why would you think he wasn't? Many anecdotes mention him micromanaging minute details, and many of the things he mentions in keynotes are highly technical as well as low-level.
  - umanwizard 11y ago
    I didn't have a prior belief either way; I was asking out of genuine curiosity.
tw04 11y ago
ZFS was in the middle of a lawsuit at the time. Larry may have been willing to license it, but I doubt he was willing to indemnify.
rsynnott 11y ago
I'm sure the lawyers were not too keen to depend on a personal relationship to smooth over their dealings with Oracle, a company known in large part for suing people in novel ways.

freck 11y ago

Oracle's ownership was not the problem (it was actually Sun's at the time Apple was working on it); NetApp's patent lawsuit was.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

KirinDave 11y ago

I mean, there is http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_Page http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_Page and FreeBSD has been proving the implementations reliability for some time now. Apple could adopt it. They don't. That's probably because the desktop OS is on life support, and there are indications Apple wants to abandon it in favor of a migration to a wholly iOS model.

empthought 11y ago
There are no such indications.
- KirinDave 11y ago
  The derelict OS, continued lockdown of OSX, UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement", the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store, the OSX store letting a cert expire. Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pro, which is very clearly a vision of computing that is more like iOS.
  - empthought 11y ago
    > The derelict OS What? It has a major release every year. Arguably that's too often. > continued lockdown of OS X An indication of long-term investment in OS X. If they wanted to move people to iOS, they wouldn't bother. > UI convergence, iPad Pro as a "laptop replacement" There is almost no UI convergence. Do you even use an OS X system? The iPad Pro is only a potential laptop replacement for certain niches; for non-power-users it's more of an iPad replacement. > the OSX Store having an even worse developer experience than the iOS store Has nothing to do with the operating system. > the OSX store letting a cert expire. Has nothing to do with the operating system. > Oh, and the MacBook line is essentially stagnant as a product line. Basically Apple let's Intel redo the MacBook guts while its hardware teams are hard at work on improving their own architecture for the iPad Pro, which is very clearly a vision of computing that is more like iOS. Notebooks as a whole are stagnant. Apple manages to make much more money, on essentially the same hardware as everyone else, simply by investing in their brand by spending a little more time on industrial design and the operating system. They would be fools to change anything about that arrangement.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ScottBurson 11y ago

I think ZFS would still need some work to be a good consumer filesystem. Most notably, they would have to remove the restriction that you can't expand a pool by adding devices -- the way you have to do it now (swap in a larger device for one existing device, resilver, and repeat) is just a non-starter.