6 ms·

Scanned the article, can someone give me a solid example of how this is used in a sentence?

by patrickfl 11y ago

untog 11y ago
"patrickfl didn't bother to read the article, as a result they were uninformed."
- g4k 11y ago
  This may be right, but it does not sound right.
  - dang 11y ago
    It doesn't sound right because the username includes "patrick", which implies a "he". Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It sounds a bit more natural if you say "That user didn't read the article, so they were uninformed."
    - warfangle 11y ago
      > Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It does when the gender identity of the subject is known to be neither he nor she!
    - warfangle 11y ago
      > Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It does when the gender identity of the subject is known to be neither he nor she!
  - untog 11y ago
    Why not? This is not new at all, I've used it whenever I'm not sure of the gender of a subject for as long as I can remember.
  - Afton 11y ago
    It's not right. There are linguistic restrictions on gender-neutral, singular 'they'.[1] When the referent is known, it can't be used (i.e. it's not about 'patrick' and 'he' matching up, it's about 'they' not being usable with a known person).[2] My favourite real-life example of it's usage is one in which we know that the gender is female, and we know it's singular: "If a mother wants to use the nursing room, they can just key in the code in their pamphlet". [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/3cgbyv/limitations_of_singular_they_usage_singular_they/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/3cgbyv/limitat... gives some good discussion [2] I can't help but feel that these restrictions are related to nondefinite contexts for "(negative polarity items)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_item]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_item]", like 'no-one' and 'any', where you can't say e.g. *I ate any cake but you can say: I didn't eat any cake but you can also use it in questions: Did you eat any cake? This seems related to usages like If someone comes, tell them to wait vs *If John comes, tell them to wait.
- corysama 11y ago
  "...they was uninformed." I'm not a fan. If we have to go somewhere, I'd rather go with 'it'.
  - dang 11y ago
    That would be awful, but is a misunderstanding. People say "they were" for the singular, just like "you were" (not "you was").
aaronbrethorst 11y ago
"Alex has decided that they no longer want to be addressed by a gendered pronoun, and has requested that we all refer to them as 'they' and 'them' from now on." edit: I'd be interested in understanding why people find this very real scenario to be so downvote worthy. Is it because you find the idea of non-gendered pronouns upsetting, or because you think my example is unrealistic for some reason? Or something else entirely?
- pvg 11y ago
  It's a contrived example since the typical use of the singular they is when the gender of the subject is unknown. You might be getting downvotes for complaining about downvotes.
  - aaronbrethorst 11y ago
    I am guessing you haven't talked with that many people who describe themselves as non-gender conforming, then. I was actually paraphrasing a conversation I had with some recently about their partner.
    - pvg 11y ago
      I'm not sure what to tell you other than 'I'm guessing I'm going to make unwarranted assumptions about you'
- jasonkostempski 11y ago
  I think you're example is one of the few I would think of as specifically "singular". In most other examples I feel "they" refers to some instance of an nonspecific person from within a group of people, which is still singular but related to a group.
jnevill 11y ago
patrickfl wished to be referred to with the gender-neutral, and more recently invented pronoun "xe", but no one could figure out how to pronounce it so they referred to them as they when they were using the third-person to refer to them.
- mhurron 11y ago
  Very nice, singular and plural they.
portmanteaufu 11y ago
"If the user needs further assistance, they will need to open a support ticket." The leading clause of the sentence makes it clear that we're talking about an individual but does not indicate their (!) gender. You can use it anywhere that one might also use 'he or she'.
volaski 11y ago
You see it in notifications from social apps. "Jenny has started following you. Follow them back", etc. Because a lot of apps don't ask people to enter their gender they just resort to "them" instead of "him" or "her". It's really as annoying as people just using "her" everywhere just to be safe.
- panglott 11y ago
  Why is it annoying?
  - volaski 11y ago
    There are certain cases where it feels very ridiculous. For example, some authors use "her" to refer to even a group of people generally known to be predominantly male oriented. While it definitely won't be criticized by any feminist group, it really is distracting from narrative point of view because most readers feel it's unnatural. I remember thinking "This guy is clearly talking about dudes, why is he using female pronoun?" I also think it's stupid to have to use female pronoun just to be safe, because this in itself is sexism--it implies that they are afraid of feminists accusing them but not afraid of masculinists (if it even exists). When I say it's annoying I am not saying these people are annoying, I'm saying the reality we live in is annoying. In some non-english cultures they don't have this problem because they have ways to refer to people without being gender specific.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Now we know how women feel, all day long every day. It'd be reasonable to say "get over it", which is essentially what women hear all their lives.
      - volaski 11y ago
        Your sentence is obviously valid but i'm not sure how it relates to my comment
Strilanc 11y ago
"After the customer presses the button, they will be surprised by the machine giving them a donut."
dang 11y ago
Pretty much every great English writer uses it freely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364411. Also, listen to how people really speak, and you'll find that everybody puts it in their sentences without noticing. The funny thing is that in terms of actual usage, it's uncontroversial and has been for 600 years. The debate about it is a real-life version of the joke, "I can see it will work in practice, but will it work in theory?"
panglott 11y ago
The author was very clear in their piece.
bradleyjg 11y ago
There are at least three different usages of singular they. The newest is where a specific person for various possible reasons has asked to be referred to in that way. The oldest usage is where the referent is unknown or generic. E.g. "The technician sent by the company isn't here yet, they may have gotten stuck in a traffic." Finally, some people use singular they even where the referent is specified and that person hasn't expressed a preference for singular they. E.g. "President Obama is on vacation, they must be tired after dealing with ISIS all last week." I find this last usage jarring.

Scanned the article, can someone give me a solid example of how this is used in a sentence?

untog 11y ago

"patrickfl didn't bother to read the article, as a result they were uninformed."

g4k 11y ago
This may be right, but it does not sound right.
- dang 11y ago
  It doesn't sound right because the username includes "patrick", which implies a "he". Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It sounds a bit more natural if you say "That user didn't read the article, so they were uninformed."
  - warfangle 11y ago
    > Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It does when the gender identity of the subject is known to be neither he nor she!
  - warfangle 11y ago
    > Singular "they" doesn't replace "he" or "she" when gender is known. It does when the gender identity of the subject is known to be neither he nor she!
- untog 11y ago
  Why not? This is not new at all, I've used it whenever I'm not sure of the gender of a subject for as long as I can remember.
- Afton 11y ago
  It's not right. There are linguistic restrictions on gender-neutral, singular 'they'.[1] When the referent is known, it can't be used (i.e. it's not about 'patrick' and 'he' matching up, it's about 'they' not being usable with a known person).[2] My favourite real-life example of it's usage is one in which we know that the gender is female, and we know it's singular: "If a mother wants to use the nursing room, they can just key in the code in their pamphlet". [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/3cgbyv/limitations_of_singular_they_usage_singular_they/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/3cgbyv/limitat... gives some good discussion [2] I can't help but feel that these restrictions are related to nondefinite contexts for "(negative polarity items)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_item]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_item]", like 'no-one' and 'any', where you can't say e.g. *I ate any cake but you can say: I didn't eat any cake but you can also use it in questions: Did you eat any cake? This seems related to usages like If someone comes, tell them to wait vs *If John comes, tell them to wait.
corysama 11y ago
"...they was uninformed." I'm not a fan. If we have to go somewhere, I'd rather go with 'it'.
- dang 11y ago
  That would be awful, but is a misunderstanding. People say "they were" for the singular, just like "you were" (not "you was").

aaronbrethorst 11y ago

"Alex has decided that they no longer want to be addressed by a gendered pronoun, and has requested that we all refer to them as 'they' and 'them' from now on." edit: I'd be interested in understanding why people find this very real scenario to be so downvote worthy. Is it because you find the idea of non-gendered pronouns upsetting, or because you think my example is unrealistic for some reason? Or something else entirely?

pvg 11y ago
It's a contrived example since the typical use of the singular they is when the gender of the subject is unknown. You might be getting downvotes for complaining about downvotes.
- aaronbrethorst 11y ago
  I am guessing you haven't talked with that many people who describe themselves as non-gender conforming, then. I was actually paraphrasing a conversation I had with some recently about their partner.
  - pvg 11y ago
    I'm not sure what to tell you other than 'I'm guessing I'm going to make unwarranted assumptions about you'
jasonkostempski 11y ago
I think you're example is one of the few I would think of as specifically "singular". In most other examples I feel "they" refers to some instance of an nonspecific person from within a group of people, which is still singular but related to a group.

jnevill 11y ago

patrickfl wished to be referred to with the gender-neutral, and more recently invented pronoun "xe", but no one could figure out how to pronounce it so they referred to them as they when they were using the third-person to refer to them.

mhurron 11y ago
Very nice, singular and plural they.

portmanteaufu 11y ago

"If the user needs further assistance, they will need to open a support ticket." The leading clause of the sentence makes it clear that we're talking about an individual but does not indicate their (!) gender. You can use it anywhere that one might also use 'he or she'.

volaski 11y ago

You see it in notifications from social apps. "Jenny has started following you. Follow them back", etc. Because a lot of apps don't ask people to enter their gender they just resort to "them" instead of "him" or "her". It's really as annoying as people just using "her" everywhere just to be safe.

panglott 11y ago
Why is it annoying?
- volaski 11y ago
  There are certain cases where it feels very ridiculous. For example, some authors use "her" to refer to even a group of people generally known to be predominantly male oriented. While it definitely won't be criticized by any feminist group, it really is distracting from narrative point of view because most readers feel it's unnatural. I remember thinking "This guy is clearly talking about dudes, why is he using female pronoun?" I also think it's stupid to have to use female pronoun just to be safe, because this in itself is sexism--it implies that they are afraid of feminists accusing them but not afraid of masculinists (if it even exists). When I say it's annoying I am not saying these people are annoying, I'm saying the reality we live in is annoying. In some non-english cultures they don't have this problem because they have ways to refer to people without being gender specific.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Now we know how women feel, all day long every day. It'd be reasonable to say "get over it", which is essentially what women hear all their lives.
    - volaski 11y ago
      Your sentence is obviously valid but i'm not sure how it relates to my comment

Strilanc 11y ago

"After the customer presses the button, they will be surprised by the machine giving them a donut."

dang 11y ago

Pretty much every great English writer uses it freely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364411. Also, listen to how people really speak, and you'll find that everybody puts it in their sentences without noticing. The funny thing is that in terms of actual usage, it's uncontroversial and has been for 600 years. The debate about it is a real-life version of the joke, "I can see it will work in practice, but will it work in theory?"

panglott 11y ago

The author was very clear in their piece.

bradleyjg 11y ago

There are at least three different usages of singular they. The newest is where a specific person for various possible reasons has asked to be referred to in that way. The oldest usage is where the referent is unknown or generic. E.g. "The technician sent by the company isn't here yet, they may have gotten stuck in a traffic." Finally, some people use singular they even where the referent is specified and that person hasn't expressed a preference for singular they. E.g. "President Obama is on vacation, they must be tired after dealing with ISIS all last week." I find this last usage jarring.