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Would it be rational to assume that even Apple has a hard time coming by quality people and all their A players are already busy laying the ground work for what

by nier 11y ago

Would it be rational to assume that even Apple has a hard time coming by quality people and all their A players are already busy laying the ground work for whatever product category they are about to enter next? For example, if that might be a car they will need much better software and that from day one, otherwise people will die. The lack of polish on OS X might be an indication that they are working on something big. Not necessarily big for us, but a huge effort for them.

jacobolus 11y ago
I assume that’s a big part of it. It’s disappointing though, because there are huge possibilities for user interface improvement in systems like file managers, “office” software, web browsers, image/video/audio/&c. tools, developer tools, and so on, for someone willing to invest serious time and money in getting the core abstractions right instead of chasing shiny new small features. It’s depressing that for example the file manager from BeOS is still better than anything we have in current machines, and that the OS X file manager isn’t fundamentally anything but a mashup of the ones from NeXT and from original Mac, with slightly different chrome.
- derefr 11y ago
  What's stopping a third party from making the software-with-better-core-abstractions you're talking about, and selling it—on the Mac App Store even?
  - jacobolus 11y ago
    In most cases, nothing in particular (the file manager is a bit different, as it needs work at the operating system level). But software projects competing in established markets which require many years of development to catch up to “industry standard” tools are hard to get off the ground, because new untested ideas are risky and there are few short-term payoffs. I would love to see new products competing in all these areas. The one I’m most familiar with, Photoshop-style image editors, is based on core abstractions dating from research done on 1970s graphics workstations with far-too-literal adaptations of darkroom photography practices with 19th century ideas about how color works embedded deeply, and there is huge room for improvement if someone is willing to reimplement everything from scratch on better foundations. It’s a several-year multiple-developer kind of effort though. I’m sorry about Apple in particular because it seemed like their Mac application software teams were on a roll from ~1997–2005, but have sort of stalled since then. (Some of what they’ve done since has been awesome, but overall in my opinion there’s been substantially less great stuff in the past 10 years than in the 8 years before that, and many apps feel severely neglected.) I am thankful that Apple (with help from Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, etc.) keeps pushing the hardware side though. The new stylus, “retina” displays, better battery life in thinner computers and tablets, etc. are wonderful.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Careful about ditching too many paradigms at once; you'll end up with something like Kai's power tools, which everyone agreed were revolutionary but always remained a curiousity. This industry does not like having to retrain.
  - burntcaramel 11y ago
    I created a file organization app Blik (http://www.burntcaramel.com/blik/ http://www.burntcaramel.com/blik/) sold through the Mac App Store. It’s purposefully very simple, as I hope to not expand too quickly and make something new that is also complicated. But I actively develop it and have some interesting features in the works, such as something similar to Smart Folders. Also, I love users’ feedback!
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    This already happens - e.g. xtrafinder. But... it's still odd that Apple cares so little about OS X that there's been almost no effort put into the UI of Finder since forever. Even the most vocal Apple fans don't think much of it. (Nor did Steve Jobs, by all accounts.) In 10.6 there was a rewrite from Carbon to Cocoa, but not much changed on the outside. So it's been reliably disappointing for nearly 15 years. Considering Apple's exploding cash mountain and the relatively tiny resources needed for an update (at the absolute max, a month or three for design, and a handful of developers for a year for implementation) it's hard to understand why there's been no movement.
- vitd 11y ago
  It seems to me that you're ignoring some of what they're doing. For example, the latest version of Final Cut Pro is a big step away from the tradition of track-based video editing. As for developer tools, they've invested a lot in clang and even created a new language (Swift). Even Safari was aimed at cutting out the cruft from the browser (originally) to make it more streamlined and standards-compliant.
- rarepostinlurkr 11y ago
  Why spend resources focusing on the Desktop, when Mobile dwarfs it in size by orders of magnitude? Mac had around 7 billion in revenue last quarter report (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q4fy15datasum.pdf http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q4fy15datasum.pdf) but Mobile had 36 billon. 5x more. Would it matter that much if you spend a bunch of resources to increase that 7 billion to 7.5 or 8? Are those resources better spent making the next 30 billion, or even just further servicing that 30 billion? No matter how much money you have, resources are always finite and must be spent accordingly. Even if its just mental resources. May as well apply the same logic to Nvidia & AMD on Discrete GPU chipsets. Are the 30 million desktop discrete GPUs worth chasing compared to the 300 million mobile ones? Desktops seem to further increase their reliance on onboard GPUs as they service the majority of desktop needs well enough. Seems like everyone is chasing Mobile. I don't see Apple as any different viewed in this light.
  - nier 11y ago
    Desktop is still the tool to create Mobile. Both software and hardware. When I look at it this way it makes sense to me that Apple might want to invest in making it better.
johnchristopher 11y ago
To follow-up : maybe they are still more laser-focused than Google, Facebook or Microsoft are at the moment ?
amelius 11y ago
I think the car business is not where Apple should be looking. After all, once the driverless cars become a reality, people will not need to own their car. Transportation will become a service, rather than an "owned" product. Apple would have to totally reinvent itself to become active in such a market.
loceng 11y ago
The issue is really incentives. If you have access to the capital of Apple, Google, etc. then it's simply giving a green light to spending more than might make sense, and doing so in a way that makes sense.
guelo 11y ago
I wonder how much Apple's draconian employee secrecy policies hurt their recruitment. Developers that like to blog and contribute to open source are probably wary of joining Apple.

by nier 11y ago

jacobolus 11y ago

I assume that’s a big part of it. It’s disappointing though, because there are huge possibilities for user interface improvement in systems like file managers, “office” software, web browsers, image/video/audio/&c. tools, developer tools, and so on, for someone willing to invest serious time and money in getting the core abstractions right instead of chasing shiny new small features. It’s depressing that for example the file manager from BeOS is still better than anything we have in current machines, and that the OS X file manager isn’t fundamentally anything but a mashup of the ones from NeXT and from original Mac, with slightly different chrome.

derefr 11y ago
What's stopping a third party from making the software-with-better-core-abstractions you're talking about, and selling it—on the Mac App Store even?
- jacobolus 11y ago
  In most cases, nothing in particular (the file manager is a bit different, as it needs work at the operating system level). But software projects competing in established markets which require many years of development to catch up to “industry standard” tools are hard to get off the ground, because new untested ideas are risky and there are few short-term payoffs. I would love to see new products competing in all these areas. The one I’m most familiar with, Photoshop-style image editors, is based on core abstractions dating from research done on 1970s graphics workstations with far-too-literal adaptations of darkroom photography practices with 19th century ideas about how color works embedded deeply, and there is huge room for improvement if someone is willing to reimplement everything from scratch on better foundations. It’s a several-year multiple-developer kind of effort though. I’m sorry about Apple in particular because it seemed like their Mac application software teams were on a roll from ~1997–2005, but have sort of stalled since then. (Some of what they’ve done since has been awesome, but overall in my opinion there’s been substantially less great stuff in the past 10 years than in the 8 years before that, and many apps feel severely neglected.) I am thankful that Apple (with help from Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, etc.) keeps pushing the hardware side though. The new stylus, “retina” displays, better battery life in thinner computers and tablets, etc. are wonderful.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Careful about ditching too many paradigms at once; you'll end up with something like Kai's power tools, which everyone agreed were revolutionary but always remained a curiousity. This industry does not like having to retrain.
- burntcaramel 11y ago
  I created a file organization app Blik (http://www.burntcaramel.com/blik/ http://www.burntcaramel.com/blik/) sold through the Mac App Store. It’s purposefully very simple, as I hope to not expand too quickly and make something new that is also complicated. But I actively develop it and have some interesting features in the works, such as something similar to Smart Folders. Also, I love users’ feedback!
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  This already happens - e.g. xtrafinder. But... it's still odd that Apple cares so little about OS X that there's been almost no effort put into the UI of Finder since forever. Even the most vocal Apple fans don't think much of it. (Nor did Steve Jobs, by all accounts.) In 10.6 there was a rewrite from Carbon to Cocoa, but not much changed on the outside. So it's been reliably disappointing for nearly 15 years. Considering Apple's exploding cash mountain and the relatively tiny resources needed for an update (at the absolute max, a month or three for design, and a handful of developers for a year for implementation) it's hard to understand why there's been no movement.
vitd 11y ago
It seems to me that you're ignoring some of what they're doing. For example, the latest version of Final Cut Pro is a big step away from the tradition of track-based video editing. As for developer tools, they've invested a lot in clang and even created a new language (Swift). Even Safari was aimed at cutting out the cruft from the browser (originally) to make it more streamlined and standards-compliant.
rarepostinlurkr 11y ago
Why spend resources focusing on the Desktop, when Mobile dwarfs it in size by orders of magnitude? Mac had around 7 billion in revenue last quarter report (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q4fy15datasum.pdf http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q4fy15datasum.pdf) but Mobile had 36 billon. 5x more. Would it matter that much if you spend a bunch of resources to increase that 7 billion to 7.5 or 8? Are those resources better spent making the next 30 billion, or even just further servicing that 30 billion? No matter how much money you have, resources are always finite and must be spent accordingly. Even if its just mental resources. May as well apply the same logic to Nvidia & AMD on Discrete GPU chipsets. Are the 30 million desktop discrete GPUs worth chasing compared to the 300 million mobile ones? Desktops seem to further increase their reliance on onboard GPUs as they service the majority of desktop needs well enough. Seems like everyone is chasing Mobile. I don't see Apple as any different viewed in this light.
- nier 11y ago
  Desktop is still the tool to create Mobile. Both software and hardware. When I look at it this way it makes sense to me that Apple might want to invest in making it better.

johnchristopher 11y ago

To follow-up : maybe they are still more laser-focused than Google, Facebook or Microsoft are at the moment ?

amelius 11y ago

I think the car business is not where Apple should be looking. After all, once the driverless cars become a reality, people will not need to own their car. Transportation will become a service, rather than an "owned" product. Apple would have to totally reinvent itself to become active in such a market.

loceng 11y ago

The issue is really incentives. If you have access to the capital of Apple, Google, etc. then it's simply giving a green light to spending more than might make sense, and doing so in a way that makes sense.

guelo 11y ago

I wonder how much Apple's draconian employee secrecy policies hurt their recruitment. Developers that like to blog and contribute to open source are probably wary of joining Apple.