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Seems like these Sodium batteries would be well-suited to grid load-shifting, rather than anything mobile. They're likely to be cheaper than lithium batteries

Seems like these Sodium batteries would be well-suited to grid load-shifting, rather than anything mobile. They're likely to be cheaper than lithium batteries and cope with more charge cycles, but heavier. Pretty much exactly what you'd want for load-shifting for solar/wind power, but not ideal for vehicles (weight matters) or anything portable unless they were a lot cheaper, or cope with many more charge cycles.

deleted 11y ago
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ZenoArrow 11y ago
I agree, grid load-shifting appears to be a stronger use case for these sodium batteries than anything mobile. On a related note, there are other ways salt batteries are being explored for grid energy storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to...
oconnore 11y ago
It's going to be tough to beat pumped water and thermal storage: http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/03/electricity-storage http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/03/electricity-s... 80% efficiency and they scale with the size of your water tank or gravel pit.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  What I don't get is why there's so little work on open flow batteries. Those should also scale with the size of your tank, but you'll need much smaller tanks. But well, last time I looked at plugging anything into the grid, the inverting hardware was the cost bottleneck, so maybe that's why. I just don't really know it anymore.
  - oconnore 11y ago
    There seems to be plenty of research, but making them economical seems quite complicated, and they don't have the density for mobile applications. The baseline for grid scale storage is pumping water up a hill. That's pretty tough to beat.
- afarrell 11y ago
  The problem with pumped hydro is that you need a suitable mountain to do it at a large scale. Those are rare and found mostly outside cities. Does it work at the scale of a water tower?
  - oconnore 11y ago
    Yeah, pumped water doesn't work everywhere. I think the water tower wouldn't be economical. The article I linked provides an existing alternative that doesn't require special geography.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ZenoArrow 11y ago

I agree, grid load-shifting appears to be a stronger use case for these sodium batteries than anything mobile. On a related note, there are other ways salt batteries are being explored for grid energy storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to...

oconnore 11y ago

It's going to be tough to beat pumped water and thermal storage: http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/03/electricity-storage http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/03/electricity-s... 80% efficiency and they scale with the size of your water tank or gravel pit.

marcosdumay 11y ago
What I don't get is why there's so little work on open flow batteries. Those should also scale with the size of your tank, but you'll need much smaller tanks. But well, last time I looked at plugging anything into the grid, the inverting hardware was the cost bottleneck, so maybe that's why. I just don't really know it anymore.
- oconnore 11y ago
  There seems to be plenty of research, but making them economical seems quite complicated, and they don't have the density for mobile applications. The baseline for grid scale storage is pumping water up a hill. That's pretty tough to beat.
afarrell 11y ago
The problem with pumped hydro is that you need a suitable mountain to do it at a large scale. Those are rare and found mostly outside cities. Does it work at the scale of a water tower?
- oconnore 11y ago
  Yeah, pumped water doesn't work everywhere. I think the water tower wouldn't be economical. The article I linked provides an existing alternative that doesn't require special geography.