7 ms·

Self-driving cars are the necessary but not sufficient condition to solve traffic problems. Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0], add ride-sharin

by exo762 11y ago

Self-driving cars are the necessary but not sufficient condition to solve traffic problems. Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0], add ride-sharing software, ban human drivers [1] and done, no more traffic problems. As for your example - this jam is a direct result of very high latency of human reaction. It causes stop-and-go in jams [2]. [0] Or it will rot and occupy parking space for 97% of time. [1] This will likely to average speed and reduce time spent waiting for lights. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M

jarek 11y ago
> Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0], add ride-sharing software, ban human drivers [1] and done ... you've got a train (particularly on the Intermediate Capacity Transit System / Copenhagen-like models, automatically run small and light cars for very frequent service)
- ryandrake 11y ago
  You've got a superior train that actually drops you off at work, rather than at a train station where you have to take a shuttle to a bus station, then a bus to a bus stop near work, then walk a few blocks.
  - dibujante 11y ago
    That's just poor city planning, though.
  - jarek 11y ago
    Do you suppose that an organization that builds a bus station away from a train station and has to connect them with a shuttle will do much better at building reasonable, cost effective infrastructure for self-driving cars?
m_eiman 11y ago
Self-driving cars are the necessary but not sufficient condition to solve traffic problems. Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0] There's no need to have self-driving cars to stop 1p1c. We've already got mass transit… Switch to semi-fullly seated buses and you've reduced the number of vehicles by a factor of 40. Besides, since everyone starts work at the same time self-driving cars will have minimal effect on the number of cars on the roads at rush hour as long as there's only one occupant per car. Much cheaper solutions than developing and constructing an entire new vehicle fleet would be to force multiple occupants per vehicle, and to have people start work over a wider time span.
- kspaans 11y ago
  IMO, even simpler than that would be to stop subsidising parking: raise parking fees, eliminate free road parking, force companies to charge for parking (this part may not be feasible, special land taxes on parking lots?). Whether or not you'd need special exemptions for businesses (deliveries, plumbers, etc.), I'm not sure. People can feel free to drive around to their hearts' content, they just won't be able to stop and get out of their cars! ;)
- iofj 11y ago
  Example of the problem with mass transit : http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm 1) Money: generally speaking, depending on the number of passengers mass transit is a little cheaper (1 person), about the same (2 pers) or much more expensive (a family of 4-5) than public transport. If you take into account that home -> work -> shopping -> home with public transport turns into home -> city center -> other city center -> work -> city center -> shopping -> city center -> other city center -> home ... The point is that there are many kinds of trips where the routes taken by public transport cause it to be more expensive than a car. In the cities where I've worked, mass transit (2x bus + train) was only 20-30% cheaper than a car and only if you lived out in the suburbs and worked in the city. The other way around (living in city, working a bit out of the city), mass transit was more expensive than the car. Living in city, working in city, a fold-up bike was far more convenient. 2) Time: mass transit doesn't go where I live, and doesn't leave/arrive when I need to leave/arrive. Furthermore, it's regularly non-operative when I need it. This limits what I can do (I stayed late, we ordered in pizza, then hang out with a friend ... oops it's 22h30 ... no more buses to my place until 6 am. Yes it only happened to me maybe 5 times over a decade but fuck that shit) 3) Baggage limits: when using mass transit I can carry 25 kilograms. If I don't care about comfort of myself and other passengers, maybe 40-50 is possible. I don't imagine I will be able to do that anymore when I turn 60. If I have my kids with me, 20 kg is pushing it, and if I'm either slightly ill or ... I can barely take anything at all. When I go shopping, I buy for the week at least (by far the least bothersome way to do shopping imho, a lot faster, and also 30% or so cheaper) I come home with 30-40 kilograms usually. Can't use public transport for that. This is ignoring that a lot of things can't be reasonably/safely transported using public transport, like DIY building supplies (ladder, long bars, 2 by 4s, ...). This includes anything heavy or above a certain very restrictive size limit. 4) Comfort. I don't even get why they bother with 1st class on trains. Let's not pretend that even 1st class has 1/10th the comfort of a car. Commuter trains are torture. Mass transit is usable as a commute solution. It cannot reasonably replace a car. We need to fix transport and mass transport as it currently exists is not the answer.
pjc50 11y ago
remove 1-person-1-car model [0] Westerners are going to be very reluctant to do this, especially if it means sharing with random strangers. The developing world already has lots of "minibus" transport, and still has plenty of traffic jams.
Shorel 11y ago
> this jam is a direct result of very high latency of human reaction I would say high latency is not the reason, but road greed, and defensive driving against unwanted and unannounced lane changes.

by exo762 11y ago

jarek 11y ago

> Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0], add ride-sharing software, ban human drivers [1] and done ... you've got a train (particularly on the Intermediate Capacity Transit System / Copenhagen-like models, automatically run small and light cars for very frequent service)

ryandrake 11y ago
You've got a superior train that actually drops you off at work, rather than at a train station where you have to take a shuttle to a bus station, then a bus to a bus stop near work, then walk a few blocks.
- dibujante 11y ago
  That's just poor city planning, though.
- jarek 11y ago
  Do you suppose that an organization that builds a bus station away from a train station and has to connect them with a shuttle will do much better at building reasonable, cost effective infrastructure for self-driving cars?

m_eiman 11y ago

Self-driving cars are the necessary but not sufficient condition to solve traffic problems. Start with that and remove 1-person-1-car model [0] There's no need to have self-driving cars to stop 1p1c. We've already got mass transit… Switch to semi-fullly seated buses and you've reduced the number of vehicles by a factor of 40. Besides, since everyone starts work at the same time self-driving cars will have minimal effect on the number of cars on the roads at rush hour as long as there's only one occupant per car. Much cheaper solutions than developing and constructing an entire new vehicle fleet would be to force multiple occupants per vehicle, and to have people start work over a wider time span.

kspaans 11y ago
IMO, even simpler than that would be to stop subsidising parking: raise parking fees, eliminate free road parking, force companies to charge for parking (this part may not be feasible, special land taxes on parking lots?). Whether or not you'd need special exemptions for businesses (deliveries, plumbers, etc.), I'm not sure. People can feel free to drive around to their hearts' content, they just won't be able to stop and get out of their cars! ;)
iofj 11y ago
Example of the problem with mass transit : http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm 1) Money: generally speaking, depending on the number of passengers mass transit is a little cheaper (1 person), about the same (2 pers) or much more expensive (a family of 4-5) than public transport. If you take into account that home -> work -> shopping -> home with public transport turns into home -> city center -> other city center -> work -> city center -> shopping -> city center -> other city center -> home ... The point is that there are many kinds of trips where the routes taken by public transport cause it to be more expensive than a car. In the cities where I've worked, mass transit (2x bus + train) was only 20-30% cheaper than a car and only if you lived out in the suburbs and worked in the city. The other way around (living in city, working a bit out of the city), mass transit was more expensive than the car. Living in city, working in city, a fold-up bike was far more convenient. 2) Time: mass transit doesn't go where I live, and doesn't leave/arrive when I need to leave/arrive. Furthermore, it's regularly non-operative when I need it. This limits what I can do (I stayed late, we ordered in pizza, then hang out with a friend ... oops it's 22h30 ... no more buses to my place until 6 am. Yes it only happened to me maybe 5 times over a decade but fuck that shit) 3) Baggage limits: when using mass transit I can carry 25 kilograms. If I don't care about comfort of myself and other passengers, maybe 40-50 is possible. I don't imagine I will be able to do that anymore when I turn 60. If I have my kids with me, 20 kg is pushing it, and if I'm either slightly ill or ... I can barely take anything at all. When I go shopping, I buy for the week at least (by far the least bothersome way to do shopping imho, a lot faster, and also 30% or so cheaper) I come home with 30-40 kilograms usually. Can't use public transport for that. This is ignoring that a lot of things can't be reasonably/safely transported using public transport, like DIY building supplies (ladder, long bars, 2 by 4s, ...). This includes anything heavy or above a certain very restrictive size limit. 4) Comfort. I don't even get why they bother with 1st class on trains. Let's not pretend that even 1st class has 1/10th the comfort of a car. Commuter trains are torture. Mass transit is usable as a commute solution. It cannot reasonably replace a car. We need to fix transport and mass transport as it currently exists is not the answer.

pjc50 11y ago

remove 1-person-1-car model [0] Westerners are going to be very reluctant to do this, especially if it means sharing with random strangers. The developing world already has lots of "minibus" transport, and still has plenty of traffic jams.

Shorel 11y ago

> this jam is a direct result of very high latency of human reaction I would say high latency is not the reason, but road greed, and defensive driving against unwanted and unannounced lane changes.