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Live feed (updates) from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates ht

by atmosx 11y ago

Live feed (updates) from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-je... One of the two Russian pilots is dead. US and France urge Russia and Turkey to prevent escalation. ps. On a side note, does Germany actually count as a military force? Because when we're talking about the EU's economic policy, we're basically talking about Germany. But when war is at the gates we always see France as the major European player.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
France was historically a major colonial power whereas Germany was not. There are many reasons for France to be more interventionist, such as geopolitical power demonstration (they have maintained a truly mind-boggling number of old colonial bases), cultural solidarity and the desire to keep close ties with French-speaking former colonies, like in West Africa and the Middle East, or even nostalgic national pride. Peaceful economic stalwarts have a great deal of capacity to mobilize a military when needed. Just look at Japan.
powera 11y ago
France has nukes and a UN Security Council seat, Germany has post-WWII military restrictions.
- atmosx 11y ago
  Hm, I knew it had some restrictions but I thought they were waived by now. Ty for the heads-up.
- highCs 11y ago
  Source for Germany military restrictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement...
comrh 11y ago
Germany is the second biggest military power in the EU after France.
- atmosx 11y ago
  What about the UK?
  - comrh 11y ago
    The Germans have more active personnel. There are a lot of ways to define the power of a military force though obviously.
detaro 11y ago
Germany participated in the war in Afghanistan. (IHMO Luckily) after that our governments became more careful about it, and participating in a major war is likely to cost them a lot of votes, at least for now. (The disconnect between "thought leaders" and public opinion would be funny if it weren't depressing at the same time, with big newspapers complaining about their readers' complaints about articles pushing for military interventions and "taking international responsibility") Many Germans aren't particularly fond of our military (seen more as a necessary evil) or deploying it for anything that isn't purely "peacekeeping".
wahsd 11y ago
What makes this all that much better is that the ejected and parachuting pilots were shot out of the sky. Yes, that's a war crime. And the cherry on top is that Syrian rebels have used one of the anti-tank systems the USA gave them against a Russian rescue helicopter searching for the pilots.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  Allegedly shot out of the sky. We're still in the "lots of claims, little hard data" phase. But if true, yes, it's certainly a war crime.
- kafkaesq 11y ago
  ...the ejected and parachuting pilots were shot out of the sky. Were they, now? All we seem to know at this point is that "Russia’s military general staff is quoted by Russian news agencies as saying" that (one of) the pilots (not both) were shot down, according to the Guardian. Do you suggest that we take statements attributed Russian military spokespeople at face value?
  - detaro 11y ago
    Reuters reports that a rebel commander said that they killed the pilots, and "A video sent to Reuters earlier appeared to show one of the pilots immobile and badly wounded on the ground." http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-...
    - kafkaesq 11y ago
      "A video sent to Reuters earlier appeared to show one of the pilots immobile and badly wounded on the ground." So, assuming description of the video is accurate -- does that mean they were "shot out of the sky"? From what you've quoted, wouldn't it be more likely to assume that they found the pilots in that condition on the ground? I'm just looking for something resembling a logical substantiation for the allegation that was made.
rtkwe 11y ago
Germany has a slightly smaller standing army than France by ~20k and spends about the same in terms of budget (though it's 1% of Germany's GDP vs 2% of France's). Germany is much less active with their military over all it seems, but they're not toothless by any stretch of the imagination. Browsing [0] it looks like France has a stronger military overall especially in the Navy, raw numbers like this don't tell the whole story, in raw numbers and materiel France has an upper hand. [0] http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=france&country2=germany&Submit=COMPARE http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.a...

by atmosx 11y ago

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

France was historically a major colonial power whereas Germany was not. There are many reasons for France to be more interventionist, such as geopolitical power demonstration (they have maintained a truly mind-boggling number of old colonial bases), cultural solidarity and the desire to keep close ties with French-speaking former colonies, like in West Africa and the Middle East, or even nostalgic national pride. Peaceful economic stalwarts have a great deal of capacity to mobilize a military when needed. Just look at Japan.

powera 11y ago

France has nukes and a UN Security Council seat, Germany has post-WWII military restrictions.

atmosx 11y ago
Hm, I knew it had some restrictions but I thought they were waived by now. Ty for the heads-up.
highCs 11y ago
Source for Germany military restrictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement...

comrh 11y ago

Germany is the second biggest military power in the EU after France.

atmosx 11y ago
What about the UK?
- comrh 11y ago
  The Germans have more active personnel. There are a lot of ways to define the power of a military force though obviously.

detaro 11y ago

Germany participated in the war in Afghanistan. (IHMO Luckily) after that our governments became more careful about it, and participating in a major war is likely to cost them a lot of votes, at least for now. (The disconnect between "thought leaders" and public opinion would be funny if it weren't depressing at the same time, with big newspapers complaining about their readers' complaints about articles pushing for military interventions and "taking international responsibility") Many Germans aren't particularly fond of our military (seen more as a necessary evil) or deploying it for anything that isn't purely "peacekeeping".

wahsd 11y ago

What makes this all that much better is that the ejected and parachuting pilots were shot out of the sky. Yes, that's a war crime. And the cherry on top is that Syrian rebels have used one of the anti-tank systems the USA gave them against a Russian rescue helicopter searching for the pilots.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
Allegedly shot out of the sky. We're still in the "lots of claims, little hard data" phase. But if true, yes, it's certainly a war crime.
kafkaesq 11y ago
...the ejected and parachuting pilots were shot out of the sky. Were they, now? All we seem to know at this point is that "Russia’s military general staff is quoted by Russian news agencies as saying" that (one of) the pilots (not both) were shot down, according to the Guardian. Do you suggest that we take statements attributed Russian military spokespeople at face value?
- detaro 11y ago
  Reuters reports that a rebel commander said that they killed the pilots, and "A video sent to Reuters earlier appeared to show one of the pilots immobile and badly wounded on the ground." http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-...
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    "A video sent to Reuters earlier appeared to show one of the pilots immobile and badly wounded on the ground." So, assuming description of the video is accurate -- does that mean they were "shot out of the sky"? From what you've quoted, wouldn't it be more likely to assume that they found the pilots in that condition on the ground? I'm just looking for something resembling a logical substantiation for the allegation that was made.

rtkwe 11y ago

Germany has a slightly smaller standing army than France by ~20k and spends about the same in terms of budget (though it's 1% of Germany's GDP vs 2% of France's). Germany is much less active with their military over all it seems, but they're not toothless by any stretch of the imagination. Browsing [0] it looks like France has a stronger military overall especially in the Navy, raw numbers like this don't tell the whole story, in raw numbers and materiel France has an upper hand. [0] http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=france&country2=germany&Submit=COMPARE http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.a...