5 ms·

Turkey Shoots Down Russian Warplane Near Syrian Border

44 points by kafkaesq 11y ago

return0 11y ago
The US president's rush to defend Turkey is beyond ridiculous, even taking into account that Turkey is part of NATO. Turkish airplanes breach the Greek airspace over the Aegean sea multiple times every day (Turkey considers parts of the aegean disputed despite international treaties). Never has an incident happened, despite dogfights having been happening for decades. By this logic there would not be any turkish pilots alive by now. Turkey's military often likes to interfere in turkish politics, and this was probably caused by some hothead militant. I doubt turkey has at this stage anything to gain from confrontation with Russia.
- comrh 11y ago
  Russia also has a history of "testing" airspace of other countries though.
  - mladenkovacevic 11y ago
    As does every other country, US and Turkey included.
- Jun8 11y ago
  The Aegean situation is complicated (you can start by examining the maps here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute), it's not clear which international treaties you are referring to. Both sides, as internal policies dictate, have escalated the situation at times. "Turkey's military often likes to interfere in turkish politics": This is outdated information, the military nowadays appear to be subdued by the strong government presence. If there were "hothead militants" still around there would be many other goals they would be pursuing other than downing Russian planes.
- falsestprophet 11y ago
  Turkish airplanes breach the Greek airspace over the Aegean sea multiple times every day The Russian bomber was on a combat mission near the Turkish border. Turkey has a legitimate interest in preventing combat aircraft from deliberately or accidentally bombing Turkish territory and Turkish people. Turkey stated it would respond disproportionately to any incursions into its airspace and has shot down Syrian aircraft for similar incursions.
m00dy 11y ago
Yes, we did.
- rblatz 11y ago
  So in recent months you've been buying oil from ISIS, sending supplies to ISIS, and shot down Russian planes that are fighting ISIS. Why are you still in NATO?
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    So in recent months you've been buying oil from ISIS, Substantiation, please?
    - yarou 11y ago
      Turkey actually has a lot to gain from supporting ISIS. For one thing, the Turks are traditionally enemies of the Kurds, who want to establish their own state within Turkey's borders. So it's not surprising (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) that Turkey would support ISIS, if not actively, at least passively.
      - kafkaesq 11y ago
        You're giving an explanation as to why it could be happening. But you're not providing any factual information to support the allegation that it actually is happening.
    - rblatz 11y ago
      http://www.ibtimes.co.in/turkey-buying-oil-isis-syrian-army-releases-photos-captured-tanker-656183 http://www.ibtimes.co.in/turkey-buying-oil-isis-syrian-army-... And it's obvious that the oil is going over land to a country near ISIS territory. That means Turkey, Iran, and possibly Jordan. Considering the friendly relationship that Iran has with Assad, I doubt they are buying oil to fund their opposition. With Jordan requiring travel through area's that ISIS doesn't have strong control over that's also not likely, at least not for their main source of funding. That leaves Turkey.
atmosx 11y ago
Live feed (updates) from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-je... One of the two Russian pilots is dead. US and France urge Russia and Turkey to prevent escalation. ps. On a side note, does Germany actually count as a military force? Because when we're talking about the EU's economic policy, we're basically talking about Germany. But when war is at the gates we always see France as the major European player.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  France was historically a major colonial power whereas Germany was not. There are many reasons for France to be more interventionist, such as geopolitical power demonstration (they have maintained a truly mind-boggling number of old colonial bases), cultural solidarity and the desire to keep close ties with French-speaking former colonies, like in West Africa and the Middle East, or even nostalgic national pride. Peaceful economic stalwarts have a great deal of capacity to mobilize a military when needed. Just look at Japan.
- powera 11y ago
  France has nukes and a UN Security Council seat, Germany has post-WWII military restrictions.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    Hm, I knew it had some restrictions but I thought they were waived by now. Ty for the heads-up.
  - highCs 11y ago
    Source for Germany military restrictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement...
- comrh 11y ago
  Germany is the second biggest military power in the EU after France.
suprgeek 11y ago
Putin may have come off as angry in his reactions after the shoot down but this plays very much into his hands. The Russian economy is in trouble and avg. russians are feeling the pinch. so nothing like some military engagements and patriotism to distract people. Now there will be predictable sabre ratting and retaliation from Russia - they do not want this to calm down...not really.
mladenkovacevic 11y ago
Russian Ministry of Defense statement for a Russian view of the situation: https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
Now we have conflicting claims about whether the plane crossed the border, with both sides releasing radar tracks. It's even possible that both sides could be making their claims in good faith - if someone's equipment isn't perfectly accurate. (Hmm. Where have I heard this before? Oh, yes, Tomorrow Never Dies.)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Am I correct in reading that Turkey, Russia, and the US are in a three-way proxy war? You are probably undercounting the number of "ways" in the Syrian civil war. But, yes, those three (and others) are involved in an (at least) three-way war in Syria.
- atmosx 11y ago
  You forgot to put Israel, Iran and Saudi Arabia in the picture, but I think you mentioned all major players except France. If human lives, millions of refugees and terroristic attacks were not part of this, I'd dare to say that it's an extremely amusing mess.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

44 points by kafkaesq 11y ago

The US president's rush to defend Turkey is beyond ridiculous, even taking into account that Turkey is part of NATO. Turkish airplanes breach the Greek airspace over the Aegean sea multiple times every day (Turkey considers parts of the aegean disputed despite international treaties). Never has an incident happened, despite dogfights having been happening for decades. By this logic there would not be any turkish pilots alive by now. Turkey's military often likes to interfere in turkish politics, and this was probably caused by some hothead militant. I doubt turkey has at this stage anything to gain from confrontation with Russia.

comrh 11y ago
Russia also has a history of "testing" airspace of other countries though.
- mladenkovacevic 11y ago
  As does every other country, US and Turkey included.
Jun8 11y ago
The Aegean situation is complicated (you can start by examining the maps here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute), it's not clear which international treaties you are referring to. Both sides, as internal policies dictate, have escalated the situation at times. "Turkey's military often likes to interfere in turkish politics": This is outdated information, the military nowadays appear to be subdued by the strong government presence. If there were "hothead militants" still around there would be many other goals they would be pursuing other than downing Russian planes.
falsestprophet 11y ago
Turkish airplanes breach the Greek airspace over the Aegean sea multiple times every day The Russian bomber was on a combat mission near the Turkish border. Turkey has a legitimate interest in preventing combat aircraft from deliberately or accidentally bombing Turkish territory and Turkish people. Turkey stated it would respond disproportionately to any incursions into its airspace and has shot down Syrian aircraft for similar incursions.

m00dy 11y ago

Yes, we did.

rblatz 11y ago
So in recent months you've been buying oil from ISIS, sending supplies to ISIS, and shot down Russian planes that are fighting ISIS. Why are you still in NATO?
- kafkaesq 11y ago
  So in recent months you've been buying oil from ISIS, Substantiation, please?
  - yarou 11y ago
    Turkey actually has a lot to gain from supporting ISIS. For one thing, the Turks are traditionally enemies of the Kurds, who want to establish their own state within Turkey's borders. So it's not surprising (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) that Turkey would support ISIS, if not actively, at least passively.
    - kafkaesq 11y ago
      You're giving an explanation as to why it could be happening. But you're not providing any factual information to support the allegation that it actually is happening.
  - rblatz 11y ago
    http://www.ibtimes.co.in/turkey-buying-oil-isis-syrian-army-releases-photos-captured-tanker-656183 http://www.ibtimes.co.in/turkey-buying-oil-isis-syrian-army-... And it's obvious that the oil is going over land to a country near ISIS territory. That means Turkey, Iran, and possibly Jordan. Considering the friendly relationship that Iran has with Assad, I doubt they are buying oil to fund their opposition. With Jordan requiring travel through area's that ISIS doesn't have strong control over that's also not likely, at least not for their main source of funding. That leaves Turkey.

atmosx 11y ago

Live feed (updates) from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-je... One of the two Russian pilots is dead. US and France urge Russia and Turkey to prevent escalation. ps. On a side note, does Germany actually count as a military force? Because when we're talking about the EU's economic policy, we're basically talking about Germany. But when war is at the gates we always see France as the major European player.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
France was historically a major colonial power whereas Germany was not. There are many reasons for France to be more interventionist, such as geopolitical power demonstration (they have maintained a truly mind-boggling number of old colonial bases), cultural solidarity and the desire to keep close ties with French-speaking former colonies, like in West Africa and the Middle East, or even nostalgic national pride. Peaceful economic stalwarts have a great deal of capacity to mobilize a military when needed. Just look at Japan.
powera 11y ago
France has nukes and a UN Security Council seat, Germany has post-WWII military restrictions.
- atmosx 11y ago
  Hm, I knew it had some restrictions but I thought they were waived by now. Ty for the heads-up.
- highCs 11y ago
  Source for Germany military restrictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement...
comrh 11y ago
Germany is the second biggest military power in the EU after France.

suprgeek 11y ago

Putin may have come off as angry in his reactions after the shoot down but this plays very much into his hands. The Russian economy is in trouble and avg. russians are feeling the pinch. so nothing like some military engagements and patriotism to distract people. Now there will be predictable sabre ratting and retaliation from Russia - they do not want this to calm down...not really.

mladenkovacevic 11y ago

Russian Ministry of Defense statement for a Russian view of the situation: https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

Now we have conflicting claims about whether the plane crossed the border, with both sides releasing radar tracks. It's even possible that both sides could be making their claims in good faith - if someone's equipment isn't perfectly accurate. (Hmm. Where have I heard this before? Oh, yes, Tomorrow Never Dies.)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 11y ago
> Am I correct in reading that Turkey, Russia, and the US are in a three-way proxy war? You are probably undercounting the number of "ways" in the Syrian civil war. But, yes, those three (and others) are involved in an (at least) three-way war in Syria.
atmosx 11y ago
You forgot to put Israel, Iran and Saudi Arabia in the picture, but I think you mentioned all major players except France. If human lives, millions of refugees and terroristic attacks were not part of this, I'd dare to say that it's an extremely amusing mess.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]