5 ms·

+1 SQLite is probably on of the most well tested piece of software on this globe. I do not know if this space saving is worth it.

by trymas 11y ago

pfalcon 11y ago
No. But running SQL where you never could run it before (where SQLite couldn't fit even remotely) is definitely interesting.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
It is if the space savings gets your product sales due to lower unit price with big $$$ resulting. That's why there's a market for 8-16bit processors. Most developers don't want it so much as need it because getting job done for $1 a CPU is better than using $10-$100. ;) EDIT to add two links by Ganssle to explain it better: http://www.ganssle.com/rants/8bitsisdead.htm http://www.ganssle.com/rants/8bitsisdead.htm http://www.ganssle.com/articles/8and16bit.htm http://www.ganssle.com/articles/8and16bit.htm I think Microchip's 8-bitters doing $1+ billion in business with better profits and dividends vs troubles of many in 32-64 bit markets says a lot.
- sitkack 11y ago
  Those articles are over a decade old. The size of silicon between an 8 or 16 or 32 bit ALU contained in an MCU is miniscule. Most of the space is taken up by peripherals and this is where Microchip has historically thrived but this is no longer so. There are a number of 32 bit MCUs that are cost competitive with 8 bit parts.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    How about this month with a market survey? ;) http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/embedded-insights/4440832/8-bit-isn-t-dying--it-s-growing http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/embedded-insights/44408... Interesting details on how 8-bit companies are doing that from John Donovan the year before: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/is-there-a-future-for-8-bit-mcus https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/is-the... We'd need a price list for the other thing. Can you get 32's with decent memory & low watts for a few bucks a CPU in low volume? Aside from that, you still think they're dead and useless with the new articles? I'll add that many chips from old nodes survived for decades due to stability. The new process nodes have all kinds of issues and break faster. So, there is that to consider if the application is long-term, safety-critical, or security-critical. Many in high assurance design stayed with old stuff (esp on SOI) because manufacturing bugs were less and interference/wear issues are lower.
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      Yes, the tiny Freescale, Cypress, etc can be obtained for less than a dollar in a reasonable quantity [1]. The microcontroller market is changing pretty rapidly of late, with the number of products getting more and more broad. For your high reliability stuff, you'd probably want to look at the cortex-r series, which is built for the type of use cases you describe. [1] http://bit.ly/1NbLYov http://bit.ly/1NbLYov redirects to digikey search.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Appreciate the confirmation. Outside embedded, one use for these people aren't appreciating is offloading interrupts or security checks of I/O devices. Along with sensors/mgmt stuff you can trust more. Cost being so low let's one do physical partitioning of domains instead of software. Also, thanks for the mention of Cortex-R as I hadn't heard of it. A quick glance at their description looks good. About $8 on low end to $50 on high-end. Getting quite cheap indeed for what 8-bits would be required for. Way cheaper than the old champ (RCA 1802 MCU) is today ($150 w/ 1k units). http://www.intersil.com/content/intersil/en/products/space-and-harsh-environment/harsh-environment/microprocessors-and-peripherals/CDP1802A.html?part=t&_charset_=UTF-8#overview http://www.intersil.com/content/intersil/en/products/space-a... Ok. So, I'll probably not have to go to 8-bit or drop large $$$ if I take-on certain projects. Good to know. Dirt cheap chips with large ecosystem, lock-step, real-time, and MPU's... it's like the golden era in tech for embedded start-ups, eh? :)
    - sitkack 11y ago
      The charts on the EDN article are flipped, 8 bit usage is dropping. Time is from right to left. ;) My argument is that the economic cost of production between 8 and 32 bit MCUs is negligible. There is a _need_ for market segmentation, etc. But the cost of the package makes up for the cost in gates. It really is a wash. Much of what we still see in 8 bit designs is because of (no insult intended) 8 bit designers. I love me some 8 bit RISC, but AVR is having to fully embrace ARM even when it has its own AVR32 ISA. I don't think they are dead and useless, but they are definitely on the out for most designs. Totally agree on old stable designs. Engineering tolerances are "better" now. Something to be said for the Brooklyn Bridge and DC3s. Cheap and low volume? Yes. http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Controllers/Microcontrollers-MCU/ARM-Microcontrollers-MCU/_/N-a85pc?Rl=a85pcZgjdhrcZ1ynznd2Z1yrfw5rSGT&Ns=Pricing%7c0 http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Con...
  - geedy 11y ago
    And many of these still don't have enough RAM to make SQLite workable. That said, I look forward to the day when SQLite is the smallest database we will need; its just up for debate when that will occur.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      You think that's difficult? Here's you the next challenging target for DB work or whatever after your PhD is done: http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/considerations-for-4-bit-processing/ http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/consider... Bet you didn't know they were even still around, eh? Get's better: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/mc14500b-a-1-bit-industrial-processor.88417/ http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/mc14500b-a-1-bit-... With manuals and Verilog included. :)
      - geedy 11y ago
        I recently was invited to give a talk about LittleD at the University of Michigan. While there, I got to talk with the one of the lead researchers working on the world's smallest computer, this thing: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2015/Worlds-Smallest-Computer-Michigan-Micro-Mote.html http://www.eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2015/Worlds-Sm... The basic computer has so little memory (~3KB total for code/data IIRC) to make anything sophisticated impossible, but there are extensions that keep the thing much smaller than a typical embedded device (like orders of magnitude smaller) but providing enough for there to be interesting work.
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        That's really neat. So tiny a fly could trip over it haha. Many of the advances in process nodes are making complex hardware small & efficient enough to do stuff like this. However, I still think there's worthwhile gains in R&D where we just throw more limited hardware in there w/ dedicated functions. We're seeing that with 8-bits + smart peripherals but I think there's more to do. My last idea was several hundred 8-bit processors in a multi-core config that could handle many data-processing problems. Turns out it wasn't entirely original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilocore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilocore Doubted about its marketability but supports my assertion these little CPU's & such can go much further on modern nodes. Just gotta experiment. Your work is another example.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

+1 SQLite is probably on of the most well tested piece of software on this globe. I do not know if this space saving is worth it.

by trymas 11y ago

+1 SQLite is probably on of the most well tested piece of software on this globe. I do not know if this space saving is worth it.

pfalcon 11y ago

No. But running SQL where you never could run it before (where SQLite couldn't fit even remotely) is definitely interesting.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

It is if the space savings gets your product sales due to lower unit price with big $$$ resulting. That's why there's a market for 8-16bit processors. Most developers don't want it so much as need it because getting job done for $1 a CPU is better than using $10-$100. ;) EDIT to add two links by Ganssle to explain it better: http://www.ganssle.com/rants/8bitsisdead.htm http://www.ganssle.com/rants/8bitsisdead.htm http://www.ganssle.com/articles/8and16bit.htm http://www.ganssle.com/articles/8and16bit.htm I think Microchip's 8-bitters doing $1+ billion in business with better profits and dividends vs troubles of many in 32-64 bit markets says a lot.

sitkack 11y ago
Those articles are over a decade old. The size of silicon between an 8 or 16 or 32 bit ALU contained in an MCU is miniscule. Most of the space is taken up by peripherals and this is where Microchip has historically thrived but this is no longer so. There are a number of 32 bit MCUs that are cost competitive with 8 bit parts.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  How about this month with a market survey? ;) http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/embedded-insights/4440832/8-bit-isn-t-dying--it-s-growing http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/embedded-insights/44408... Interesting details on how 8-bit companies are doing that from John Donovan the year before: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/is-there-a-future-for-8-bit-mcus https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/feb/is-the... We'd need a price list for the other thing. Can you get 32's with decent memory & low watts for a few bucks a CPU in low volume? Aside from that, you still think they're dead and useless with the new articles? I'll add that many chips from old nodes survived for decades due to stability. The new process nodes have all kinds of issues and break faster. So, there is that to consider if the application is long-term, safety-critical, or security-critical. Many in high assurance design stayed with old stuff (esp on SOI) because manufacturing bugs were less and interference/wear issues are lower.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    Yes, the tiny Freescale, Cypress, etc can be obtained for less than a dollar in a reasonable quantity [1]. The microcontroller market is changing pretty rapidly of late, with the number of products getting more and more broad. For your high reliability stuff, you'd probably want to look at the cortex-r series, which is built for the type of use cases you describe. [1] http://bit.ly/1NbLYov http://bit.ly/1NbLYov redirects to digikey search.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      Appreciate the confirmation. Outside embedded, one use for these people aren't appreciating is offloading interrupts or security checks of I/O devices. Along with sensors/mgmt stuff you can trust more. Cost being so low let's one do physical partitioning of domains instead of software. Also, thanks for the mention of Cortex-R as I hadn't heard of it. A quick glance at their description looks good. About $8 on low end to $50 on high-end. Getting quite cheap indeed for what 8-bits would be required for. Way cheaper than the old champ (RCA 1802 MCU) is today ($150 w/ 1k units). http://www.intersil.com/content/intersil/en/products/space-and-harsh-environment/harsh-environment/microprocessors-and-peripherals/CDP1802A.html?part=t&_charset_=UTF-8#overview http://www.intersil.com/content/intersil/en/products/space-a... Ok. So, I'll probably not have to go to 8-bit or drop large $$$ if I take-on certain projects. Good to know. Dirt cheap chips with large ecosystem, lock-step, real-time, and MPU's... it's like the golden era in tech for embedded start-ups, eh? :)
  - sitkack 11y ago
    The charts on the EDN article are flipped, 8 bit usage is dropping. Time is from right to left. ;) My argument is that the economic cost of production between 8 and 32 bit MCUs is negligible. There is a _need_ for market segmentation, etc. But the cost of the package makes up for the cost in gates. It really is a wash. Much of what we still see in 8 bit designs is because of (no insult intended) 8 bit designers. I love me some 8 bit RISC, but AVR is having to fully embrace ARM even when it has its own AVR32 ISA. I don't think they are dead and useless, but they are definitely on the out for most designs. Totally agree on old stable designs. Engineering tolerances are "better" now. Something to be said for the Brooklyn Bridge and DC3s. Cheap and low volume? Yes. http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Controllers/Microcontrollers-MCU/ARM-Microcontrollers-MCU/_/N-a85pc?Rl=a85pcZgjdhrcZ1ynznd2Z1yrfw5rSGT&Ns=Pricing%7c0 http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Con...
- geedy 11y ago
  And many of these still don't have enough RAM to make SQLite workable. That said, I look forward to the day when SQLite is the smallest database we will need; its just up for debate when that will occur.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    You think that's difficult? Here's you the next challenging target for DB work or whatever after your PhD is done: http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/considerations-for-4-bit-processing/ http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/12/10/consider... Bet you didn't know they were even still around, eh? Get's better: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/mc14500b-a-1-bit-industrial-processor.88417/ http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/mc14500b-a-1-bit-... With manuals and Verilog included. :)
    - geedy 11y ago
      I recently was invited to give a talk about LittleD at the University of Michigan. While there, I got to talk with the one of the lead researchers working on the world's smallest computer, this thing: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2015/Worlds-Smallest-Computer-Michigan-Micro-Mote.html http://www.eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2015/Worlds-Sm... The basic computer has so little memory (~3KB total for code/data IIRC) to make anything sophisticated impossible, but there are extensions that keep the thing much smaller than a typical embedded device (like orders of magnitude smaller) but providing enough for there to be interesting work.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        That's really neat. So tiny a fly could trip over it haha. Many of the advances in process nodes are making complex hardware small & efficient enough to do stuff like this. However, I still think there's worthwhile gains in R&D where we just throw more limited hardware in there w/ dedicated functions. We're seeing that with 8-bits + smart peripherals but I think there's more to do. My last idea was several hundred 8-bit processors in a multi-core config that could handle many data-processing problems. Turns out it wasn't entirely original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilocore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilocore Doubted about its marketability but supports my assertion these little CPU's & such can go much further on modern nodes. Just gotta experiment. Your work is another example.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]