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> For some odd reason politicians and many people are hung up on light rail and it has the worst cost structure of all mass transit options. For many people, L

> For some odd reason politicians and many people are hung up on light rail and it has the worst cost structure of all mass transit options. For many people, Light Rail (or trains / subways) are the only decent mass transit they have ever experienced in the US. Every single major and minor city has a bus system. Most of them are nearly useless, often intentionally so by design. It's natural for people to demand something useful, and light rail is nearly universally more useful than busing (including BRT) in any given market. > It isn't flexible and its cost per mile is staggering let alone the cost of maintenance. Those are benefits of light rail, not drawbacks. The higher costs and inflexibility of light rail represents an authentic long-term commitment to good useful transit in that area. To replicate that value with a Bus system requires you to build grade separated, dedicated right of way. Which is where 90% of Light Rail's cost comes from. So if your going to spend that money, you might as well put in real Light Rail and get all of the benefit.

mikeash 11y ago
Are you really saying that given the choice between a train system that costs X and an identical one that costs 2X, the 2X one is better?
- maxsilver 11y ago
  No, I'm saying there is no such thing as "two identical systems where one costs X, and the other costs 2X". The "X cost system" is worse than the "2X system". That's why it's cheaper. The "X" system is slower or carries less passengers or runs less often or goes to less places, or gets stuck in traffic, or is less reliable, or changes it's routes. -- It's like comparing a WalMart Netbook to a MacBook Pro and saying "they're both 'identical' computers, why are we spending 2X on the MacBook Pro?". We spend the extra cash because they aren't identical, the 2X one is better.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    You said the cost itself was a benefit. What you're describing here is when the extra cost allows for other features which are benefits. With your notebook computer analogy, the extra cost of a MacBook Pro is not a benefit. The benefits are all the various things that are better about it, with the extra cost being worth it to have those benefits. The only way you'd say the extra cost of a MacBook Pro was itself a benefit would be if you wanted to show off how rich you are or something equally silly.
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      The context of calling the cost a benefit was in picking between reasonable and competitively-priced options. You're not arguing against the point that it's a commitment to better transit, you're trying to pull a cheap gotcha.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        I'm not trying to pull a gotcha anything. I'm legitimately trying to understand the point that was being made. The point looked to me to be that spending more money is by itself a benefit because it represents a greater commitment. I then verified that I was understanding correctly, and was told that this was not in fact what was intended.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  No, the comment is saying that front-loading a large cost is good, because once you make that right of way you'll have good service that's much safer from budget issues.
sampo 11y ago
> Every single major and minor city has a bus system. Most of them are nearly useless, often intentionally so by design. European here. Why would someone intentionally design a useless bus system?
- maxsilver 11y ago
  In a lot of US cities, (particularly the mid-size and smaller cities that don't have Trains/Subways/Light Rail) busing isn't treated as transportation, it's treated like a welfare program, similar to Food Stamps / EBT or Section 8 / subsidized housing. http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-s... This is compounded by the fact that in most of these types of cities, most of the jobs and/or the "best" jobs (highest paying, most stable, best health insurance benefits, etc) are located in the suburbs, where transit is least available. Often these places can "opt-out" of transit altogether. http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/stephen-henderson/2015/02/22/detroit-bus-transit/23775245/ http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/stephen-hender... (subheading: "Designed for failure")

mikeash 11y ago

Are you really saying that given the choice between a train system that costs X and an identical one that costs 2X, the 2X one is better?

maxsilver 11y ago
No, I'm saying there is no such thing as "two identical systems where one costs X, and the other costs 2X". The "X cost system" is worse than the "2X system". That's why it's cheaper. The "X" system is slower or carries less passengers or runs less often or goes to less places, or gets stuck in traffic, or is less reliable, or changes it's routes. -- It's like comparing a WalMart Netbook to a MacBook Pro and saying "they're both 'identical' computers, why are we spending 2X on the MacBook Pro?". We spend the extra cash because they aren't identical, the 2X one is better.
- mikeash 11y ago
  You said the cost itself was a benefit. What you're describing here is when the extra cost allows for other features which are benefits. With your notebook computer analogy, the extra cost of a MacBook Pro is not a benefit. The benefits are all the various things that are better about it, with the extra cost being worth it to have those benefits. The only way you'd say the extra cost of a MacBook Pro was itself a benefit would be if you wanted to show off how rich you are or something equally silly.
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    The context of calling the cost a benefit was in picking between reasonable and competitively-priced options. You're not arguing against the point that it's a commitment to better transit, you're trying to pull a cheap gotcha.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      I'm not trying to pull a gotcha anything. I'm legitimately trying to understand the point that was being made. The point looked to me to be that spending more money is by itself a benefit because it represents a greater commitment. I then verified that I was understanding correctly, and was told that this was not in fact what was intended.
Dylan16807 11y ago
No, the comment is saying that front-loading a large cost is good, because once you make that right of way you'll have good service that's much safer from budget issues.

sampo 11y ago

> Every single major and minor city has a bus system. Most of them are nearly useless, often intentionally so by design. European here. Why would someone intentionally design a useless bus system?

maxsilver 11y ago
In a lot of US cities, (particularly the mid-size and smaller cities that don't have Trains/Subways/Light Rail) busing isn't treated as transportation, it's treated like a welfare program, similar to Food Stamps / EBT or Section 8 / subsidized housing. http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-s... This is compounded by the fact that in most of these types of cities, most of the jobs and/or the "best" jobs (highest paying, most stable, best health insurance benefits, etc) are located in the suburbs, where transit is least available. Often these places can "opt-out" of transit altogether. http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/stephen-henderson/2015/02/22/detroit-bus-transit/23775245/ http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/stephen-hender... (subheading: "Designed for failure")