8 ms·

The Economics and Nostalgia of Dead Malls

57 points by sytelus 11y ago

bluedino 11y ago
I love how Rackspace took over an abandoned mall for office space. I think it'd be great to see that happen more often. Food court, lots of parking, usually good locations, many different size parcels from huge (think a Sears) to small (RadioShack) that would be suitable for businesses of many sized.
- metalliqaz 11y ago
  And lots of space for roller skating
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  A friend's employer did this, along with some other companies, with a dead mall in whatever city he was in at the time. They got the food court reopened, and, yeah, parking was a breeze. Perhaps not the most efficiently designed space for the purpose, but effective. The high ceilings, often skylights/atrium in the main corridors, could be nice walking space when you need a break, and not constrained by bad weather.
- rlander 11y ago
  So cool! Here's an indoor view, thanks to Google Maps: https://www.google.com.br/maps/place/Rackspace+Hosting/@29.5085859,-98.3942021,3a,75y,35.45h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKiJQZkKFr96FZAjsAUnEUQ!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xdfd632e8e5ff24a2!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com.br/maps/place/Rackspace+Hosting/@29.5...
- tbyehl 11y ago
  Imagine working in an open office space the size of a Sears floor. That's what I see every time one of my Racker friends posts up a picture of their workspace. Ugh.
  - steve-howard 11y ago
    There are people who would have you believe this is a good thing. I share your revulsion.
  - nostromo 11y ago
    You can take a look around inside on Google Maps. https://goo.gl/maps/VTkMW8dmL1t https://goo.gl/maps/VTkMW8dmL1t
    - Gravityloss 11y ago
      It looks like someone just put tables in there. They didn't hire an interior designer?
  - msisk6 11y ago
    Take it from someone that used to work there -- it's horrific. The noise level is unbelievable. All the technical folks live in their noise-canceling headphones all day.
    - tbyehl 11y ago
      10 years at INLD / PEER1. The shopping mall was the final nail in the coffin of the idea that I might ever move to SAT and jump ship to Rackspace.
    - ChuckMcM 11y ago
      I'm surprised they didn't do anything for the noise. I have seen some really interesting noise cancelling ceiling treatments if the ceilings are high. One looks a bit like a kelp forest hanging from the ceiling only denser. The "leaves" on the vertical vines form a noise capturing space so absolutely nothing bounces off the ceiling.
      - Scuds 11y ago
        Exactly, the false ceiling is designed to absorb sound. If you remove that the space is nothing but a concrete echo chamber.
- amyjess 11y ago
  There was a mall in Dallas, TX called Prestonwood. After the mall went under, it was taken over and turned into a telecom office complex called Genisus [sic]. Ultimately, it failed, and the whole thing ended up getting bulldozed and turned into an outdoor strip mall anchored by a Walmart.
- virmundi 11y ago
  Our mall is cockroach ridden and dying. If I had my way, I'd close all the existing stores in it (JC Penny's and a shoe store). They would relocate to downtown Palatka. The mall itself would be full handed over to Government offices. Presently there are a few government or government related presences in the mall.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - reustle 11y ago
    Palatka FL? I lived in Pamona Park for a few months, that mall was sad indeed.
- megablast 11y ago
  Oh sure. Middle of nowhere. No public transport. Sounds like a dream.
mjevans 11y ago
I agree with the over-retailed aspect. Actual retail could mix very effectively as a lining along pedestrian paths, with domiciles above for a few tens of stories. This would pretty much also kill the concept of malls as it would be a return to the shopping arcade; in fact I'd prefer it if combustion motors were banned along the arcade and it were actually properly enclosed.
- cbd1984 11y ago
  If the arcade is enclosed and cars are banned, that's a shopping mall. That's what that is called. You might have housing in there, but it would be living in a shopping mall. Something which somehow hasn't taken off.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    There are cases where housing is attached to malls. There some at Copley in Boston and Santana Row in Santa Clara, while not an enclosed mall, is a mix of retail, restaurants, hotels, and condos.
thex10 11y ago
I won't miss them. I just spent a few days in Seattle's downtown, pieces of which have a very outdoor mall feeling to it. Ridiculous amounts of shopping clustered very close together. Felt like way more fun than any enclosed mall. Maybe part of it is perceived efficiency on my part (the window shopper) - I felt like I can find more variety and competition in several square blocks than in a typical mall.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Seattle has a couple of enclosed enclosed urban malls downtown right next to each other (west lake and pacific). I feel like China is making all the mistakes of the states in their mall development. We have more than a few near our apartment and they are mostly uninspired.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- cbd1984 11y ago
  Outdoor malls are nice in Seattle, where it constantly rains and nobody cares because it constantly rains but you never get ice storms or mosquito-filled summers with 110% humidity and 110°F. Transpose your idea to Missoula or Dallas or Phoenix and it loses some luster.
  - pyre 11y ago
    On the same token, when I visited Orange County several years ago I remember both enclosed, air-conditioned malls, and open-air malls.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  The malls were never a solution for city downtowns. They were a solution for suburbia, where you could zone a commercial area outside a residential area. On the sell side, they were a solution to brands with low urgency (greeting cards, pretzels) to benefit from foot traffic to headliner stores.
lolptdr 11y ago
I'd say this is a good thing for the future small to medium sized businesses, assuming the mall management and owners drop rental and kickback prices that were gouging bigger retailers. Online shopping is the future and the malls will need to adapt or die.
n0us 11y ago
In my home town of Lynchburg VA the indoor mall just outside of town was on the decline so the nearby Liberty University nearby bought most (if not all) of it and turned it towards classrooms, and other university purposes. There is still a large movie theater and besides not agreeing with many of their principals it's nice to see something not go to waste.
massysett 11y ago
"With income inequality continuing to widen, high-end malls are thriving, even as stolid retail chains like Sears, Kmart and J. C. Penney falter, taking the middle- and working-class malls they anchored with them." This has become a standard refuge of the press whenever businesses that target middle-income customers decline. Must be income inequality. Never occurs to them that maybe the failing retailers aren't delivering the value that their customers expect. Malls are a pain. Drive to it, park far away, walk all over the place, try to find sales help, stores are overpriced, have limited selection, and the hours are limited. Think of many of the products that used to be sold in malls: appliances. Electronics. Fast food. Apparel. Many of these have other retail options available that are less of a pain than the mall. Heck, Walmart is less of a pain than the mall--and it has better hours. The mall closes at 6 or 7 on Sunday and doesn't open until 10. So no, "income inequality" has little to do with the decline of an expensive, inconvenient retail format.
- intopieces 11y ago
  >Never occurs to them that maybe the failing retailers aren't delivering the value that their customers expect. Could they not be expecting more value because their wages have stagnated? Wouldn't income inequality be the reason that the customers require the "value" to start with? Seeing as the affluent are willing to pay shopping mall mark-up and the middle class isn't, doesn't that point to income inequality? I'm just not sure why you view these explanations as mutually exclusive. The middle class brands are dying because the middle class can't afford them anymore. The wealthy would never have set foot in there to start.
  - massysett 11y ago
    In an America where the middle class have supercomputers in their pockets, unlimited long-distance calling, cars with ten airbags, over a hundred channels of television, 3D movies, abundant food, air conditioning in their homes, and multi-gigabit broadband, I have grown increasingly skeptical that the "stagnant incomes" narrative is accurate.
    - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fineIllregister 11y ago
> About 80 percent of the country’s 1,200 malls are considered healthy, reporting vacancy rates of 10 percent or less. But that compares with 94 percent in 2006, according to CoStar Group, a leading provider of data for the real estate industry. And how many of the malls that were open in 2006 are still open? Seems like percentages are the completely wrong number to use. Also I found that graph made very little sense.

57 points by sytelus 11y ago

I love how Rackspace took over an abandoned mall for office space. I think it'd be great to see that happen more often. Food court, lots of parking, usually good locations, many different size parcels from huge (think a Sears) to small (RadioShack) that would be suitable for businesses of many sized.

metalliqaz 11y ago
And lots of space for roller skating
Jtsummers 11y ago
A friend's employer did this, along with some other companies, with a dead mall in whatever city he was in at the time. They got the food court reopened, and, yeah, parking was a breeze. Perhaps not the most efficiently designed space for the purpose, but effective. The high ceilings, often skylights/atrium in the main corridors, could be nice walking space when you need a break, and not constrained by bad weather.
rlander 11y ago
So cool! Here's an indoor view, thanks to Google Maps: https://www.google.com.br/maps/place/Rackspace+Hosting/@29.5085859,-98.3942021,3a,75y,35.45h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKiJQZkKFr96FZAjsAUnEUQ!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xdfd632e8e5ff24a2!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com.br/maps/place/Rackspace+Hosting/@29.5...
tbyehl 11y ago
Imagine working in an open office space the size of a Sears floor. That's what I see every time one of my Racker friends posts up a picture of their workspace. Ugh.
- steve-howard 11y ago
  There are people who would have you believe this is a good thing. I share your revulsion.
- nostromo 11y ago
  You can take a look around inside on Google Maps. https://goo.gl/maps/VTkMW8dmL1t https://goo.gl/maps/VTkMW8dmL1t
  - Gravityloss 11y ago
    It looks like someone just put tables in there. They didn't hire an interior designer?
- msisk6 11y ago
  Take it from someone that used to work there -- it's horrific. The noise level is unbelievable. All the technical folks live in their noise-canceling headphones all day.
  - tbyehl 11y ago
    10 years at INLD / PEER1. The shopping mall was the final nail in the coffin of the idea that I might ever move to SAT and jump ship to Rackspace.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    I'm surprised they didn't do anything for the noise. I have seen some really interesting noise cancelling ceiling treatments if the ceilings are high. One looks a bit like a kelp forest hanging from the ceiling only denser. The "leaves" on the vertical vines form a noise capturing space so absolutely nothing bounces off the ceiling.
    - Scuds 11y ago
      Exactly, the false ceiling is designed to absorb sound. If you remove that the space is nothing but a concrete echo chamber.
amyjess 11y ago
There was a mall in Dallas, TX called Prestonwood. After the mall went under, it was taken over and turned into a telecom office complex called Genisus [sic]. Ultimately, it failed, and the whole thing ended up getting bulldozed and turned into an outdoor strip mall anchored by a Walmart.
virmundi 11y ago
Our mall is cockroach ridden and dying. If I had my way, I'd close all the existing stores in it (JC Penny's and a shoe store). They would relocate to downtown Palatka. The mall itself would be full handed over to Government offices. Presently there are a few government or government related presences in the mall.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- reustle 11y ago
  Palatka FL? I lived in Pamona Park for a few months, that mall was sad indeed.
megablast 11y ago
Oh sure. Middle of nowhere. No public transport. Sounds like a dream.

mjevans 11y ago

I agree with the over-retailed aspect. Actual retail could mix very effectively as a lining along pedestrian paths, with domiciles above for a few tens of stories. This would pretty much also kill the concept of malls as it would be a return to the shopping arcade; in fact I'd prefer it if combustion motors were banned along the arcade and it were actually properly enclosed.

cbd1984 11y ago
If the arcade is enclosed and cars are banned, that's a shopping mall. That's what that is called. You might have housing in there, but it would be living in a shopping mall. Something which somehow hasn't taken off.
- ghaff 11y ago
  There are cases where housing is attached to malls. There some at Copley in Boston and Santana Row in Santa Clara, while not an enclosed mall, is a mix of retail, restaurants, hotels, and condos.

thex10 11y ago

I won't miss them. I just spent a few days in Seattle's downtown, pieces of which have a very outdoor mall feeling to it. Ridiculous amounts of shopping clustered very close together. Felt like way more fun than any enclosed mall. Maybe part of it is perceived efficiency on my part (the window shopper) - I felt like I can find more variety and competition in several square blocks than in a typical mall.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Seattle has a couple of enclosed enclosed urban malls downtown right next to each other (west lake and pacific). I feel like China is making all the mistakes of the states in their mall development. We have more than a few near our apartment and they are mostly uninspired.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cbd1984 11y ago
Outdoor malls are nice in Seattle, where it constantly rains and nobody cares because it constantly rains but you never get ice storms or mosquito-filled summers with 110% humidity and 110°F. Transpose your idea to Missoula or Dallas or Phoenix and it loses some luster.
- pyre 11y ago
  On the same token, when I visited Orange County several years ago I remember both enclosed, air-conditioned malls, and open-air malls.
prostoalex 11y ago
The malls were never a solution for city downtowns. They were a solution for suburbia, where you could zone a commercial area outside a residential area. On the sell side, they were a solution to brands with low urgency (greeting cards, pretzels) to benefit from foot traffic to headliner stores.

lolptdr 11y ago

I'd say this is a good thing for the future small to medium sized businesses, assuming the mall management and owners drop rental and kickback prices that were gouging bigger retailers. Online shopping is the future and the malls will need to adapt or die.

n0us 11y ago

In my home town of Lynchburg VA the indoor mall just outside of town was on the decline so the nearby Liberty University nearby bought most (if not all) of it and turned it towards classrooms, and other university purposes. There is still a large movie theater and besides not agreeing with many of their principals it's nice to see something not go to waste.

massysett 11y ago

"With income inequality continuing to widen, high-end malls are thriving, even as stolid retail chains like Sears, Kmart and J. C. Penney falter, taking the middle- and working-class malls they anchored with them." This has become a standard refuge of the press whenever businesses that target middle-income customers decline. Must be income inequality. Never occurs to them that maybe the failing retailers aren't delivering the value that their customers expect. Malls are a pain. Drive to it, park far away, walk all over the place, try to find sales help, stores are overpriced, have limited selection, and the hours are limited. Think of many of the products that used to be sold in malls: appliances. Electronics. Fast food. Apparel. Many of these have other retail options available that are less of a pain than the mall. Heck, Walmart is less of a pain than the mall--and it has better hours. The mall closes at 6 or 7 on Sunday and doesn't open until 10. So no, "income inequality" has little to do with the decline of an expensive, inconvenient retail format.

intopieces 11y ago
>Never occurs to them that maybe the failing retailers aren't delivering the value that their customers expect. Could they not be expecting more value because their wages have stagnated? Wouldn't income inequality be the reason that the customers require the "value" to start with? Seeing as the affluent are willing to pay shopping mall mark-up and the middle class isn't, doesn't that point to income inequality? I'm just not sure why you view these explanations as mutually exclusive. The middle class brands are dying because the middle class can't afford them anymore. The wealthy would never have set foot in there to start.
- massysett 11y ago
  In an America where the middle class have supercomputers in their pockets, unlimited long-distance calling, cars with ten airbags, over a hundred channels of television, 3D movies, abundant food, air conditioning in their homes, and multi-gigabit broadband, I have grown increasingly skeptical that the "stagnant incomes" narrative is accurate.
  - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

fineIllregister 11y ago

> About 80 percent of the country’s 1,200 malls are considered healthy, reporting vacancy rates of 10 percent or less. But that compares with 94 percent in 2006, according to CoStar Group, a leading provider of data for the real estate industry. And how many of the malls that were open in 2006 are still open? Seems like percentages are the completely wrong number to use. Also I found that graph made very little sense.