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EU proposal to clamp down on Bitcoin curb terrorism funding
- DamnYuppie 11y agoI didn't see in this article where they actually gave a valid reason for the crack down. Is there evidence that the funds for these attacks, or any others, originated from bitcoins? The initial reaction of my inner knee-jerk skeptic says this is another example of those in power, this time banksters, not letting a good crisis go to waste.
- pyvpx 11y agoI believe the reasoning is called fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
- dsmithatx 11y agoThat would actually be a nice reason compared to what I believe. I see this as their opportunity to try and stop Bitcoin for it's actual uses, anonymous payments, not paying taxes etc. etc.
- michael_fine 11y agoI imagine that's much of the motivation for the actual politicians, though the public wouldn't stomach this without a healthy does of FUD.
- patrickk 11y agoThere's no evidence for this, they are using the attacks as an excuse. It's like the encryption hysteria. Look at this blatant propaganda from the BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34842854 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34842854 Some choice quotes: "They are not using the big obvious systems at all," he tells the BBC. They were using SMS.[1] "They are all now using the OTR [Off the Record] protocol, which offers end-to-end encryption," he says. "The arrests that are going on now have come from a trawl through metadata" This is actually how they found the other would-be attackers: European media outlets are reporting that the location of a raid conducted on a suspected safe house Wednesday morning was extracted from a cellphone, apparently belonging to one of the attackers, found in the trash outside the Bataclan concert hall massacre. Le Monde reported that investigators were able to access the data on the phone, including a detailed map of the concert hall and an SMS messaging saying “we’re off; we’re starting.” Police were also able to trace the phone’s movements. The amount of bullshit and propaganda coming out is scary. This is the website of one of the BBC's experts, for added hilarity[2]. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after-endless-demonization-encryption-police-find-paris-attackers-coordinated-via-unencrypted-sms.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after... [2] http://www.pmsommer.com/ http://www.pmsommer.com/
- sohcahtoa 11y agoPeter Sommer's nom de plume was Hugo Cornwall - a name Brits who got their start in the 80s will recognise. I'm not sure where the hilarity is?
- Sealy 11y agoGood timing. Yesterday, the UK Treasury released an official document stating that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have the lowest risk and lowest likelihood of money laundering amongst the areas of finance they studied. Guess who came first, Banks. Good job HSBC! You have laundered more money ever then the entire cryptocurrency industry is worth... 10x over http://www.coindesk.com/uk-treasury-digital-currencies-low-money-laundering-risk/ http://www.coindesk.com/uk-treasury-digital-currencies-low-m... HM Treasury link to the National Risk Assessment carried out by the Home Office: https://www.scribd.com/doc/290214176/UK-NRA-October-2015-Final-Web https://www.scribd.com/doc/290214176/UK-NRA-October-2015-Fin...
- dtech 11y ago> You have laundered more money ever then the entire cryptocurrency industry is worth... 10x over To be fair, the banking sector is also orders of magnitude larger
- bduerst 11y agoThat's because bitcoin adoption is so low that it's not a threat. Seriously: >9.29 The money laundering risk associated with digital currencies is low, though if the use of digital currencies was to become more prevalent in the UK this risk could rise. Digital currencies are currently not a method by which terrorists raise or move money out of the UK (though they remain a viable method for doing so).
- vdaniuk 11y agoSo why don't we see headlines like "EU clamps down on banking industry and corruption in financial institutions"?
- bduerst 11y agoBecause the E.U. already does and it's not news. http://www.transparencyinternational.eu/focus_areas/eu-financial-sector/ http://www.transparencyinternational.eu/focus_areas/eu-finan...
- tankenmate 11y agoMore importantly than their intent, exactly how do they expect to enforce this new "policy"? It seems to me to be as enforceable as banning individual to individual cash transactions. Good luck with that.
- lucaspiller 11y agoI expect they will introduce tighter regulations, i.e. requiring a license to operate an exchange. But all that's going to do is harm legitimate users of virtual currencies...
- dtech 11y agoYou can ban/heavily regulate legitimate usages of the currency, which devalues it. If no-one outside of illegitimate circles can accept/process bitcoin money laundering becomes a lot more difficult, since the bitcoin loses value for legitimate purposes.
- Caprinicus 11y agoThis is a great idea. The legitimate users will have to find someone to offload their bitcoin to, and since the legitimate outlets are shut down, they'll have to do local, difficult to trace trades. And since the only people buying bitcoin at that point is going to use it for illegal purposes... wait this is a terrible idea
- Atropos 11y agoOh please, in principle you could easily regulate Bitcoin like Heroin, meaning make it illegal to buy/sell, manufacture (mine) etc... While Bitcoin would not disappear, it would become even less mainstream than now. Hopefully this is not possible under constitutional law!
- explorer666 11y agoYou mean it would make its price go up, just like with any illegal drug?
- dtech 11y agoIt looks to me more like this was something that was already planned and now they're using the Paris attacks as an excuse. Bitcoin is a lot less anonymous than cash, since everyone can follow who pays what to whom, and it's often possible to tie a wallet to an identity.
- vdaniuk 11y agoSo it goes. Terror attacks provide opportunities for special interest groups to advance their agenda while public is frightened and irrational. Makes you think about the implicit beneficiaries of terrorism, doesn't it?
- JustSomeNobody 11y agoIndeed, governments around the globe absolutely love terrorism. It's good for business.
- chki 11y agoI think this is not true for several reasons. One (only in multi-party systems) is the rise of new political parties (for example here in Germany) that are very "right-winged" and strongly oppose the current government. I think it can not possibly be in the governments interest to loose power to these groups.
- joshstrange 11y agosigh this /feels/ like it's in the same vein as "ban encryption". As in "we have no proof this is happening but the Paris attacks give us a window where we can push through whatever BS we want and silence any critics with 'Do you want this to happen again?'"
- jmnicolas 11y agoBefore they had the "pedonazis", now they have the terrorists to justify whatever they want to ban. Since the terrorists used cars for their attacks (there was even mention of a Volkswagen Polo involvement) I propose we ban cars for our collective safety. I wonder, did the terrorists ever used cash, a debit or credit card ? Maybe we should ban this too then.
- mootothemax 11y ago>I wonder, did the terrorists ever used cash, a debit or credit card ? Maybe we should ban this too then. FYI The various known terrorists/terrorist organisations lists are a large part of Know Your Client (KYC) checks.
- mootothemax 11y agoGiven how extremely traceable bitcoin payments are, I'm pretty surprised that they're not trying to get Bad People to use Bitcoin, whether publicly or behind-the-scenes. I mean, in a way, maybe this is what this story is all about: a great big advertisement saying "Come use this completely anonymous payment system," with a sly nudge and a wink because bitcoin's nothing of the sort. Just imagine: a plot is discovered, payment details made via bitcoin stumbled upon - and now you have a long list of every transaction those people have ever made using Bitcoin! (for the inevitable bitcoin cult members wanting to chime in about "tumbling" or "fog" services, aka bitcoin money launderers, 1. they're still traceable and 2. there's not enough money going through them to successfully launder a four-digit amount, let alone anything greater.)
- bduerst 11y agoIt's impossible to track bitcoins when people transfer in and out of other currencies between bitcoin addresses. The process is called tumbling, and it's primarily how bitcoin tax evaders use it now to get around the "public ledger".
- mootothemax 11y ago>It's impossible to track bitcoin laundering when people transfer in and out of other currencies, between bitcoin addresses. >The process is called tumbling, and it's primarily how bitcoin tax evaders use it now to get around the "public" ledger. I very briefly addressed this at the bottom of my comment. In short order: - Tumbling is traceable: throw a beefy server at the list of transactions, and since you know how much money arrived in someone's possession on a given date, you can now trace it backwards by crunching the numbers. Analysing long lists of transactions like this is something computers are really good at. - But that doesn't matter, because tumbling sites can't work: they don't have enough capital in them to successfully launder more than a few play dollars at a time.
- bduerst 11y agoI think you're under the assumption that currency conversions are traceable. Once you convert bitcoins to dollars or yuan, your beefy server can't see the remaining transactions. For example: 20 BTC -> $4000 -> 25000 yuan -> 4 new addresses @ 5, 10, 2, & 8 BTC The only way to trace these is to compromise the exchange servers, get account information, and subpoena transactions from the banks. Very difficult to do given the international nature of these exchanges and banks.
- tomp 11y agoWill they also clamp down on Transferwise? The fallacy here is, Bitcoin doesn't actually move money. It can only move ownership of money. If I want to finance terrorism, there must already be someone with e.g. $1M where I want it (in Islamic State), so that I can trade 3000 BTC with him/her.
- teh 11y agoTransferwise already require receipts for some payments. I recently ordered something from Asia where payment went through an intermediate European payment provider and Transferwise wanted a receipt from me to proceed.
- Lunar_Lamp 11y agoTransferWise hasn't done anything with Bitcoin since April 2013 - https://transferwise.com/blog/2013-04/notice-to-bitcoin-users-april-2013/ https://transferwise.com/blog/2013-04/notice-to-bitcoin-user...
- yc1010 11y agoTransferwise accepts payments from debit cards or to their eastern European bank (Latvia or something), and then they pay from their US bank for example. They do ask for ID documents and perform AML checks, but then again so do all proper bitcoin exchanges with the exception of the shady btc-e from Russia or thereabouts. But its not like bad guys are afraid of using fake IDs (as seen in Europe this last week) which brings the obvious question as to why they would bother with all that when they can just use cash and traditional banking. The whole article is click bait of the highest order based on fud. ---- If the powers to be want to hit ISIS where it hurts how about destroying their oilfields, oil refining and transport capabilities. A few armed drones can do this on the cheap remotely. Make it clear that any oil extraction, processing or transport equipment in the area controlled and sympathetic to ISIS will be destroyed and grant these scum their wish if living in the middle ages.
- logingone 11y agoTinkering around the edges. Why don't they clamp down on religion?
- teekert 11y agoWhy don't they clamp down on freedom? Oh wait...
- logingone 11y agoFreedom? Religious people have been trained like animals from youth. There's no choice there. That's not freedom.
- DamnYuppie 11y agoQuestion then becomes which one?
- balabaster 11y agoAll of them...
- tdkl 11y agoCui bono ? [1] Private banks run the western governments. There are people who own the banks. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono [2] http://www.scionofzion.com/federalreserve.htm http://www.scionofzion.com/federalreserve.htm
- tlrobinson 11y agoSo is this a case of "never let a serious crisis go to waste", or "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this"?
- arethuza 11y agoThe Politician's syllogism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician's_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician's_syllogism
- teekert 11y agoThe Saudis use Bitcoin? Within the EU?
- guard-of-terra 11y agoWhat can we do to counter this and teach them a lesson so this does not happen again? Where is our community long term planning? They (people that nobody voted for doing what they do) are engaged in this unrightful activity without no punishment in sight. This is wrong.
- gtpasqual 11y agoEU should be focusing on the funders, but social repercussions would be negative towards certain groups. I mean, if the payment process was the problem, they should ban money.
- tsmarsh 11y agoThen ban cash. Either we're for anonymous currency or we're not.
- spacehome 11y agoPlease don't give them ideas.
- PythonicAlpha 11y agoThey are already planning it (I think, I heard it already from Sweden). But to ban cash will be much more difficult than Bitcoin, since so many people will shout up -- with Bitcoin, who cares, when a few hackers who are probably already involved in illegal activities (drug, sex, copyright violations, .... you name it) will be mad.
- SyneRyder 11y agoThere are already stores in Sweden where cash is not accepted. One notable example is the ABBA Museum, where ABBA songwriter Björn Ulvaeus believes a cashless society will reduce crime: An ABBA Star's Campaign for a 100% Cash-Free Sweden http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-10-28/abbas-bj-rn-ulvaeus-does-his-part-to-make-sweden-cashless http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-10-28/abbas-bj-rn-...
- PythonicAlpha 11y agoWhile a cashless society might reduce crime (for a little while), it will definitively bring an Orwellian system onto us. Also, we have seen, that there are enough corrupt banks and bankers around, so crime will go on ... (money laundering also does work today in company with banks).
- aianus 11y agoCash was already on its way to being banned in France: http://www.french-property.com/news/money_france/cash_payments_limits http://www.french-property.com/news/money_france/cash_paymen...
- nickysielicki 11y agoDown with terrorism! Woo hoo! Take that ISIS!
- mikekchar 11y agoThe headline is misleading. This is a Reuters reporter reporting that some ministers are planning to discuss non-bank methods of money transfer at the upcoming emergency meeting. The report seems to get it's information from a "draft conclusion" document, but does not reference it. The headline suggests the EU has already decided to clamp down on Bitcoin, but it is far from clear to me that it will even be discussed. All we know is that some unnamed officials want to talk about it (together with transfers of precious metals, etc).
- dang 11y agoThank you. We changed the title to reflect that.
- vpkaihla 11y agoPerhaps we should be looking at GNU Taler (https://taler.net/ https://taler.net/) instead. They're supposed to provide personal liberty and many of the other benefits of crypto currencies, but without criminal security.
- return0 11y agoWhat is the evidence here. If i were a terrorist i would avoid any online / electronic "anonymous" transfer method like the plague. Good old print oil money is the best.
- maze-le 11y agoThey (Daesh/IS) are accepting donations in bitcoin, I don't think it is beeing used for something else. I recently read an article, describing how a teenager was scentenced to prison, because he showed how such a transaction can be done. http://www.dw.com/en/us-teenager-sentenced-to-prison-for-supporting-islamic-state-online/a-18680144 http://www.dw.com/en/us-teenager-sentenced-to-prison-for-sup...
- drcode 11y agoHi Barbra, meet Streisand!
- mtgx 11y agoI assume this is because they found the vast majority of terrorism funding is done through Bitcoin, and not just another knee-jerk reaction to "crypto" - right?!
- nly 11y agoRIP localbitcoin.com? As of right now individuals can trade bitcoin through via personal bank transfers thanks to sites like this. I see this being squeezed to death eventually, which is a real shame.
- late2part 11y agoThis is how they will try to ban cash.
- drcode 11y agoI think Bitcoin is slowing the demise of cash- I think the powers that be will prefer the devil they know (cash) over the devil they don't know (cryptocurrency).
- AC__ 11y agoQuite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. I hate to be cliche, but to quote Chomsky, "Everyone’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s really an easy way: Stop participating in it". Regardless, the CIA and Mossad didn't use bitcoin to finance ISIS.
- oneJob 11y agoCheck out the book "Money: The Unauthorized Biography". It does an excellent job making an argument that a sovereign that loses control of the primary currency loses control of political primacy. This isn't just about terrorism or money laundering. It's very much about political power. review 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/books/review/money-by-felix-martin.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/books/review/money-by-feli... review 2: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/book-review-money-unauthorized-biography http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/book-review-mone... review 3: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/08/money-the-unauthorised-biography-by-felix-martin-review http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/08/money-the-unaut...
- MichaelGG 11y agoHow much funding is really needed? They talked about this after Sept 11, but that always seemed like a rather cheap thing to pull off. Certainly "bootstrappable" given a few dedicated people. Some flight sim time, perhaps a few lessons to get some insight into ops, and uh, go? Really, the creative spark and meeting of a few collaborators was the only hard part. How much funding did Breivik need?
- cabalamat 11y agoBitcoin is a good deal less anonymous than cash.
- aianus 11y agoBut also a good deal easier to smuggle across borders, just saying.
- nutmeg 11y ago"It was difficult to transact legitimate business with cash in the Sprawl; in Japan, it was already illegal."
- badloginagain 11y agoSo we shouldn't let refugees in, even though no refugees were part of recent terrorist events. We should outlaw encryption, even though the attack was planned with unencrypted off the shelf technology. We should crack down on bitcoin, even though the attack wasn't funded with bitcoin. Do lobbying groups just wait for this kind of thing to happen? It seems completely ridiculous to me. Then again, I'm not afraid.
- logfromblammo 11y agoThey do, actually. "Never let a good crisis go to waste." As morally abhorrent as most of us may find the practice of profiting on human suffering to be, we often forget that there are people out there whose morality is almost entirely incompatible with our own, or who lack any sense of morality whatsoever. For a variety of reasons, those same-species parasites are drawn to positions where they can manipulate overly credulous humans for their own gain. These propaganda campaigns are roughed out ahead of time, like a Mad Lib, and the details are filled out after any relevant crisis occurs, with any inconvenient facts stretched out and re-tailored to fit the narrative structure. It's not a conspiracy. Those people are not working together. They just coincidentally fired their bullets on the pull of the same trigger. The terrorists didn't use Bitcoin? Well, in that case, imagine how much worse it could have been if they did use it! They didn't use encryption? How many more would have died if they did?
- Fuxy 11y agoThis is so stupid do they really think that terrorists care about their own privacy when they know that they are not going to come out of the attack alive. And if they believe that they are going to catch the activity before the attack happens they are smoking crack. They signal to noise ratio is just too high. Plus they can always just use cash.
- imgabe 11y agoI don't think it's about money laundering, which isn't even mentioned in the article. With Bitcoin, governments can't order anyone to freeze the accounts like they can with a bank. That makes it harder to prevent terrorists from accessing funds.
- cubano 11y agoNever underestimate the money laundering "bandwidth" of a shipping container full of cash crossing the oceans[1] [1]http://people.exeter.ac.uk/watupman/undergrad/ron/methods%20and%20stages.htm http://people.exeter.ac.uk/watupman/undergrad/ron/methods%20...
- Kinnard 11y agoBitcoin is not anonymous. Something must be done to disabuse journalists of this notion! It's misinformation and particularly dangerous for people who need actually anonymous payments like dissidents living under oppressive regimes.
- mirimir 11y agoYes, people hear "crytocurrency" and think "hidden". Bitcoin just uses cryptographic signing for authentication, to prevent theft and double spending. It's the opposite of anonymity.
- benevol 11y ago"Carpe Diem!" Sincerely, Your banking industry
- pakled_engineer 11y agoTerrorists have traditionally raised their own local funds through organized crime. They kidnap for ransom, extort businesses and target drug dealers and other black markets in their neighbourhoods to jack and tax for money. Al Qaeda in Iraq started as highwaymen robbing commercial trucks and assassins for hire, the realIRA group robs and kills dealers, 70s terrorists robbed armored cars and banks, ect. One of the Boston bombers jacked and murdered some local drug dealers and cops wrote it off as common gang crime. Since they already are criminals doesn't seem that any money laundering crackdown will make any difference, they will just extort somebody else to receive their money through all these regulation hoops they specialize in being thugs.
- phusion 11y agoHere's the non mobile link http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/19/us-france-shoooting-eu-terrorism-funding-idUSKCN0T81BW20151119 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/19/us-france-shoootin...
- hosh 11y agoThis is why we can't have nice things.
- iamsohungry 11y agoNever let a good disaster go to waste...