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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

1368 points by etix 11y ago

StavrosK 11y ago
Isn't it sad that this has to be said at all? "Hey, not every adherent of a religion supports killing innocent people of a different religion". It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade.
- huac 11y ago
  Whereas the Catholic Church has a singular leader (the Pope), there is no equivalent in Islam. That is, currently - historically, Caliphs have been religious and political leaders. ISIS claims to take up that throne now, but...
  - bad_user 11y ago
    Not sure what you mean, but as an Eastern Orthodox I do not recognize the catholic Pope or its authority.
    - huac 11y ago
      sure - and the same would be said by a Protestant or pretty much any other denomination of Christianity. my point is - while the Pope can speak for Catholics (and apologize), there is no Muslim equivalent to 'apologize' for terrorist activity. of course, the point is moot, because these terrorist attacks were not taken out by mainstream Muslims. the Crusades were officially backed by the Church and its leaders.
    - salex89 11y ago
      True, we do not. However, divisions between Christians in this day and age are not such deep or, let's say, unreasonable like between Muslims, obviously. All recent conflicts that may actually have religious elements (like the old SFRY) are much deeper than plain religion. Same goes for the constant tensions between Russia and western countries, not really much religion there.
- kbart 11y ago
  It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Just a nitpick, but Catholic church did apologize to muslims killed by the crusaders[0]. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope...
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It only took 800 years.
    - ousta 11y ago
      are you serious??? How long did it take for muslims representatives to say sorry about the invasions and conquest that led to the creation of crusades? I have yet to hear an apology.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        It doesn't matter to me what the other side of a conflict does, what matters to me is what my side of a conflict does. The fact that we don't descend to the level of our opponents gives us at least a moral edge, and it might even give us a real edge in the longer run. The moral high ground is one that you give up at your peril. Not that the Catholic church in particular has much moral high ground left but at least they did this, good for them.
        ousta 11y ago
        the thing your kind of people (which is the majority of people in the western world) will never understand is that barbary will always win against democracy. It is by saying sorry, teaching to people that you opressed them, enslaved them, telling them that they are a minority living with less chances and opportunities than a random "white man" well those same people will hate you for this, they will always see you as their enemy -just look at BLM in usa, the riots in french suburbs- and you gave them the tools. Hell I am myself a minority - coming from a muslim country - and get this because I lived in the suburbs of France and saw the global mindset of people there. This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win.
- 20kleagues 11y ago
  I agree. As much as we would like to believe that most people on the ground would make rational decisions in the face of such atrocities and not blame entire groups, the reality is never that simple. Emotions usually prevail and people end up blaming entire groups just through those groups' 'guilt by association'. The fact that this was said by someone who has faced such horrors on a daily basis before is extremely respectful.
- rmc 11y ago
  > It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Or like Americans having to apologise for drone stikes, for Iraq and Afghanistan, and specific attacks like the MSF hospital in Kunduz.
  - kbart 11y ago
    Or like Americans having to apologise for drone stikes, for Iraq and Afghanistan, and specific attacks like the MSF hospital in Kunduz. At least for Kunduz hospital, it has happened too[0]. Not downplaying other mentioned cases, just straightening some facts up. 0. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-idUSKCN0S10SX20151007 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-afghanistan-att...
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    Well, those were done by the US government, which the US populace elects, so there is a measure of responsibility.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Also, since US is a democracy, it means that the people should be able to influence this behaviour of the government, so there's some responsibility in that it did not happen.
  - pluma 11y ago
    To be fair, the US has had a reputation of sloppy warfare before 2001. The only difference between now and then is that it's happening to brown people instead of yellow people or black people.
- phphphph 11y ago
  No. The way our mind works, associations need to be strengthened for permanence (which is an extra-weird process because it can apparently modify memories). More importantly, he needs to get this off his chest. You find people to talk to in the msot unlikely places. Both language as encoding of thought and transmission are lossy. Rule of thumb: A sentence contains four different things: what I mean, what I say, what you hear and what you understand. Putting things into words already is an important part of how we for ourselves deal with the incomprehensible, the disturbing and revolting. Finding agreement, or at least getting feedback form others that our words form a comprehensible sentiment, heck - just knowing that we ended up with a gramatically well-formed sentence comforts us that the abyss between you and me, between you and everyone else can be bridged. tl;dr: it's great that it can be said.
- Luc 11y ago
  > Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade. I wonder how can you call the main motivation of these jihadists 'just a facade'?
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    Because if their motivation was to spread Islam, there are better ways to do it.
    - Luc 11y ago
      But, but... they're an apocalyptic cult establishing a caliphate... Never mind.
    - pluma 11y ago
      How does "it's about religion" imply "they're trying to spread their religion"? It's about cultural dominance. It doesn't have to make heretics convert, it just has to make them scared of heresy. Terrorist attacks aren't about defeating the enemy, they're about terrorizing the enemy and inciting them to make the wrong decisions -- like mistreating peaceful Muslims and thereby supporting the Islamists' propaganda that this is a jihad in defence of Islam. The easiest way to gain sympathy is to portray yourself as the victim and your attacks as righteous self-defence.
- slowmotiony 11y ago
  Yes, suicide bombers shouting "Allah akhbar" is definitely political, nothing to do with religion at all.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    The roots of this mess are political: France wanted Assad ousted at every cost, a policy that suited the US too since Assad was in business with Russia. That's why the ISIS was allowed to grow and receive funding. I know shocking isn't it? Now that France knows that the ISIS, retards as they are, are not easy to control. France will have to decide: Either you leave Syria to the Russians or you leave the ISIS be and hope your intelligence will be able to prevent terrorists. It's crystal clear that the population there wants and supports Assad. Obama's on the G20 made clear that the US are not going to change policy on the ISIS, which basically means that they will keep them restrained on one side, but continue to support them indirectly on the other. Putin of course offered his support in destroying ISIS, he for sure wants ISIS out of the picture, dead and buried. Turkey is playing a double-game, supporting the ISIS indirectly while condemning it's activities. It's a mess, but it's our mess. Someone should ask Hollande: "What is the reason the French military was there in the first place?" and the answer will be to enforce Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Some people really believe that. Truth is we should be apologizing to this old fella from Syria (the OP) because he is a victim of Western imperialism as much as we (Europeans) are.
    - wfn 11y ago
      Very well put.
    - realityking 11y ago
      > It's crystal clear that the population there wants and supports Assad. Do you have a source on that? From what I've read there are plenty of opposition groups still fighting Assad (and ISIS).
    - ocean3 11y ago
      Why are France interested in ousting Assad?
- deleted 11y ago
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- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Though It's probably something Western Christians should still bear in mind when talking to or about muslims.
  - deleted 11y ago
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- calibraxis 11y ago
  > Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade. Politics, markets and religion are greatly overlapping concepts! For example, an anthropologist points out that markets and major religions formed at the same time, and are frenemies. "Nowadays, the work of destroying such ways of life is still often done by missionaries–representatives of those very world religions that originally sprang up in reaction to the market long ago. Missionaries, of course, are out to save souls; but they rarely interpret this to mean their role is simply to teach people to accept God and be more altruistic. Almost invariably, they end up trying to convince people to be more selfish and more altruistic at the same time. On the one hand, they set out to teach the “natives” proper work discipline, and try to get them involved with buying and rolling products on the market, so as to better their material lot. At the same time, they explain to them that ultimately, material things are unimportant, and lecture on the value of the higher things, such as selfless devotion to others." (Originally from Harper’s Magazine, reprinted here: https://libcom.org/library/army-altruists-alienated-right-do-good https://libcom.org/library/army-altruists-alienated-right-do...) Note these inversions: - ISIS is Muslim. Sharia law economics is free market. (Adam Smith apparently cribbed many of his most famous arguments from medieval Persan free market theorists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Markets) - The US is capitalist. It's among the most fundamentalist religious. (About 40% believe Earth was created less than 10k years ago.) So-called "economics" and religion are duals. Very hard for those enmeshed in them to see.
  - calibraxis 11y ago
    Excuse me for this absurd comment; I have a cold and there was really no point for it.
- Squarel 11y ago
  Indeed. I don't see anti-immigration people and Christians being asked to apologize for Breivik, nor all catholic priests being asked to distance themselves from the catholic scandal of the last decade.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    > all catholic priests being asked to distance themselves from the catholic scandal of the last decade. Catholics absolutely take heat for the various scandals over the years. It's just easier for most of them to distance themselves since few actually practice the faith...
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    "I don't see anti-immigration people and Christians being asked to apologize for Breivik" Seriously, you don't? I've seen lots of comments where this and that politician or Christian leader is required to apologize "for their involvement" in the Breivik mass murder, which is nuts. All they've done is doubt whether the removal of border controls in Europe is a good idea. That's supposed to be enough for a guilt-by-association to Breivik's crimes as "incitement".
- jules 11y ago
  Up until a few weeks ago I used to think that religion is just a facade, but I no longer think that is true. Religion is the center of their beliefs, and a very important factor that drives their actions. When the Boston bomber says "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" he is not lying. This is what these people truly believe. They think the metaphysics of this universe works as follows. You walk into a theatre full of people with an assault rifle and start shooting people. This ensures your place in heaven next to God. Then you press the button on your suicide vest to teleport into heaven. Imagine that you were living in the Matrix but instead of a telephone, death is what lets you out of the Matrix. Furthermore, outside of the Matrix there is somebody who has been keeping score and this makes the difference between eternal bliss or eternal torture. The robots that run the Matrix have really engineered the world that way. This is what these people believe, or at least a medieval version of it. Another example is the Heaven's Gate suicide cult. Instead of being based on Islam they were based on Christianity. They though that Jesus was an alien and you can reach their UFO (= heaven) by committing suicide. And they did.
  - seren 11y ago
    I believe it is a bit more complex. From the point of view of the bomber this is certainly true. But there are also people using their gullibility. I have read multiple times that Isis has amongst its member ex Baathist officer from Saddam, Ba'ath party which was at least originally more secular and left-leaning. I am pretty sure that some of these people are not that into the religious aspect, except as a recruiting and propaganda tool. The way I see it is that using the "Islam" brand is great way to have funds and international support/appeal. In the same way, in the sixties, you had plenty of nationalist movements all over the world that were claiming to be Communist. Sure it was also the hand of Moscow at work, but for local people, that was also a great way to secure some funding/weapons/etc from USSR. Also some of the bomber have allegedly married in Syria, possibly with children, I am not sure what would happen to their family if they defected.
    - jules 11y ago
      There are certainly multiple things at play here. I think the three main ones are: 1. Religion 2. Politics 3. Personal gain For instance the politics around hating the west and hating Israel, and personal gain in sex deprived young men getting to rape women in Syria and getting a salary that's 5x as much as the average Syrian. These three parts are intertwined and can't be separated from each other. Most media focuses solely on #2, but a theory built solely around #2 does not explain the behaviour of ISIS very well, whereas a theory built around all 3 aspects fits the data very well. As for the idea that high ranking members of ISIS do not truly believe in the ideology, and they are just manipulating everyone for personal gain, it is possible but I consider it unlikely. The leader of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult also committed suicide himself along with the others. And George Bush is himself a true Christian believer. I consider it unlikely that ISIS is an exception. It is interesting that the only people equipped to intuitively understand the sincerity of the metaphysical beliefs of a suicide bomber are those who are or were in a cult or fundamentalist religion. For instance Megan Phelps-Roper who left the Westboro Baptist Church does understand this.
- gotchange 11y ago
  Well, literal Islam is unfortunately a political ideology masquerading as a religion. You can't separate the politics from the "spirituals" in literal Islam. The more you're drawn to the literal flavor of religion, the more you are corrupted by the ideological views of the founder of Islam and his early followers and disciples i.e. the expansionism, imperialism, triumphalism ...etc Does this mean that there's no good Muslims out there? Of course not, there's plenty of them but the underlying problem is that the contemporary mainstream Sunni Islam has shifted from left to right by the early 70s thanks to the increasing influence of the Saudi petrodollar and the relentless exporting of the wahabist cultural product to predominantly Sunni Muslim countries and thus hard-line teachings of Sunni Islam became the norm and dominated the public sphere and one of its poisonous fruits sadly infected Paris over the weekend.
jacquesm 11y ago
> They control large areas of land, have their own oil fields, and receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. That's one of those things where we could make a fairly immediate change in policy, it would come at a cost, definitely but it would change the situation for IS for the worse far more effectively than any number of bombs dropped would do.
- rihegher 11y ago
  I don't see media speaking much about these countries that allows financing of ISIS. But if we want to eradicate ISIS, I too think we should deal with its financial sources first. Maybe because these countries are the same countries that western companies want to sell weapons to.
  - seivan 11y ago
    A blind focus on ISIS is also a mistake as Al Nusrah (Al Qaida) is also heavily funded and commits atrocities as well. They are backed by Muslim Brotherhood from Turkey and operate in Syria. I consider Muslim Brotherhood with Khorasan group far more dangerous than ISIS and I recall reading that some where else, but can't find the source now. Fun Fact: The spokes person for Sweden funded Islamic Union is quite proud having his father happily punishing infidels in Idlib. Lovely guy.
  - sbarre 11y ago
    Isn't it naive to think of these countries as one entity? Is the US, or any Western country, one unified allied voice where everyone has the same policies or supports the same causes? It's very likely that these "rich oil-producing countries" are made up of fragmented power centres and viewpoints, just like everywhere else in the world. Painting these countries all with one brush is about as foolish as painting Christianity (or Islam) with one brush too.
    - cm2187 11y ago
      But the fact is that they are a safe-heaven from the US anti-terror campaign. After 9/11, pretty much in any other country of the world the financiers of Al Qaeda would have been imprisoned or assassinated by the US and its allies. In Saudi Arabia or Qatar, not only they have not, but they are still heavily financing ISIS. Whether the monarchies are complicit or not, they are certainly not doing anything against this financing.
prodmerc 11y ago
With the immigration crisis and the Paris attacks, it seems that people completely forgot the atrocities that these nutjobs commit in their own home countries. Perhaps it doesn't really matter to most westerners, but we shouldn't blame a billion people for the insanity of a small part of them. It's a crazy situation, for sure...
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  People intentionally forget. Terrorist attacks are a convenient excuse to not allow refugees fleeing from the full terror of ISIS. We get one Paris. They get Paris every single day.
cs702 11y ago
By writing that message, he's making himself a potential target of terror, especially now that this is on the front page of HN and could be picked up by mainstream media. For safety's sake, I hope he contributes to VLC under a pseudonym and not under his real name.
- eronhp 11y ago
  He lives in Syria surrounded by terrorists, he is already a potential target for terror.
- bduerst 11y ago
  What you're communicating is essentially what "terrorists" are aiming to achieve and draw power from. Their attacks are targeted to maximize disruption of daily life and make people afraid of some unknown terror. Better to continue life as you normally would, be alert, and to not give in to fear.
  - facepalm 11y ago
    I don't know - by the same token, if I don't walk in the middle of the road I am letting car culture win? Maybe if something is dangerous, it is better to avoid it. In this day and age whatever you say online can be read by billions. There are bound to be some nutjobs among them. So maybe it is just prudent to try to remain anonymous, as there are not only terrorists to fear.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    That's fairly easy to write in an air conditioned office somewhere in the west, but it was a pretty brave thing to do this right in the middle of the action.
    - bduerst 11y ago
      Nobody said it's easy. I'm sitting in Paris right now, and it reflects the attitude of many of the citizens here. I know shop owners that stayed open over the weekend in defiance of what the terrorists were aiming to achieve.
downandout 11y ago
I simply do not understand why we don't bomb every last one of the oil wells they control. We could issue arrest warrants for the heads of every company that buys their oil for providing material support to terrorists, and freeze all assets of these companies in any country where the US has treaties that allow it. We don't have to shoot them; we can starve them.
- dtf 11y ago
  They've already done a pretty good job. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/isis-caliphate-setbacks-islamic-state-attacks-paris-tripoli http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/isis-caliphate-...
awjr 11y ago
So we need to drop a metaphorical bomb on the financial institutions that support these regimes?
- Hytosys 11y ago
  Why do you think that these financial institutions exist in the first place? Another piece of the puzzle: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/16/stock-prices-of-weapons-manufacturers-soaring-since-paris-attack/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/16/stock-prices-of-weapons-...
carlosrg 11y ago
I'm not sure if he's going to read this, but anyway: be strong. I think Western countries have finally understood that Daesh is a problem that can't be "contained", that the only way is to completely eradicate them, even if this means collaborating with governments that they don't like. This won't make terrorism disappear of course, but at least a lot of evil people, the same people trying to seduce young and naive muslims all around the world to join them, will cease to exist.
Wintamute 11y ago
This is why the response you often hear from some quarters: "these attacks have nothing to do with religion/Islam" is so objectionable. It silences all of the majority, ordinary, moderate Muslims that wish to reform their religion. https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/666305480369831936 https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/666305480369831936
iamthepieman 11y ago
I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions and sects within the religion. I am Atlantean and go to an Atlantean church. I would not want to be called a Phoenician or Liliputian christian (made up names cause I don't want to offend anyone this early in the morning). Just as with anything else, the closer and more involved you are with something the more you see distinctions between different categories of that thing. As a total outsider your categories tend to be large, all encompassing and dominated by the loudest, most visible or most discussed sub category. For most westerners I think that sub category is, unfortunately radicalised Muslims. I'm fortunate that my coworker has given me a different perspective. I never believed all Muslims were radicalised but the true revelation for me was that my Muslim coworker was more like me than most non-muslims. It saddens me to see states in my country rejecting refugees from Syria. They are depriving their residents of potential friends and coworkers, potential spouses, neighbors or playmates that can give them a new perspective and help make their world a little larger and more interesting. Edit: I'd love to have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with me. (Not really making an argument but whatever) if you're down voting at least make a comment please.
- deleted 11y ago
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- tobltobs 11y ago
  Have you ever thought about that mixing religion and politics might be a reason for the mess in the islamic states?
  - iamthepieman 11y ago
    Yes absolutely. That plus a history of the area being a frequent host to proxy wars, a source of the worlds most demanded natural resource and the seat of three of the worlds most prominent religions.
omginternets 11y ago
I'm living in Paris. I heard gunfire from my apartment. My heart goes out to Salah-Eddin, and all people living in the shadow of unspeakable abominations. It saddens me to imagine that simply hearing gunfire in the distance is nothing compared to what my fellow man has witnessed elsewhere. Salah-Eddin's condolences mean a lot to me and I wish him all the best. It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deployed to Syria in the near future, and that such an action will prove useful in protecting him, his family, his neighbors and his culture. For what it's worth, I've submitted an application to be a reservist in the French army. It's one month of training and 30 days of active duty per year. I sincerely hope my small effort will be helpful not only because it puts another man in the Parisian battlefield (yes... that's sadly what it has become), but also because it allows a better-qualified soldier to (hopefully) deploy to the Middle East. I don't presume to know whether or not my action is helpful, but I sincerely hope it is. I'm already quite busy with my dissertation defense coming up in a few short months, but this can do, so I will. I suppose I needed to get that off my chest as well...
- seivan 11y ago
  Good luck in the Army! The Middle East doesn't need more foreign bodybags (good or bad guys) but support, training and equipment. Last I checked they are begging for armor and winter gear.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    I'm only going to be a weekend-warrior! Reservists essentially patrol Paris (especially airports and train stations), so there's zero chance of me going abroad unless I volunteer. Frankly, this is why I think enlisting as a reservist is a worthwhile and not-too-damaging thing to do. At the end of the day, someone needs to pull the trigger, sickening though this thought may be. I hope I won't have to, but I'd rather do that than watch my compatriots get butchered in their own streets. I'd rather do that then weep in my apartment like I did last Friday. I'm a few years shy of 30, I'm in good shape... if not me, then who? I mention this in case any other Frenchmen are lurking around. I know the army doesn't have a great reputation here, but this is a way to help out that doesn't even need to interfere with your work schedule. Your employer is required by law to allow you to pursue your missions, and you're paid a small amount during your active-duty days (though this is hardly the point). I can think of no clearer example of self-defense. >Last I checked they are begging for armor and winter gear. I wonder how difficult it would be to collect old winter clothes and send them over...
NicoJuicy 11y ago
This text could be kinda direct, but it's what i think could help to get a "solution" or more efficient approach to eliminate IS. - Bomb the oil fields, forget about politics/economics , don't let IS grow. Just take away their primary income so they'll internally bleed out... The people who come from Europe woudn't like it there if they don't receive any money. - Track down the big import behaviour of Western Products ( Red Bull, Nutella, Hummers, ... ) that IS terrorists love. Elimnate the import of it. They don't want Western products, no problem. Cut them off the economy and black market as quick as possible. - Make it illegal to buy black market oil from IS, track down people who want to have some quick money. - Invest in rebels that attack IS on the ground ( some people from France and the UK voluntarely go there) - If there is any proof of Middle East supports IS. Then take economic sanctions. Work together with Russia, America, Europe and China. Invest in oil alternatives FAST - Put a website online www.worldagainstterrorisme.com where there are a couple of big sections: - SnitchTerrrorists, to report abnormal behaviour. Make it so that you can see which ethicity/religion has reported them. So people would realize that muslims don't support extremist behaviour - LiveTarget, witch the cooperation of America, an online live sattelite map that limits to Syria and the part that IS controls. Limit the visibility of known friendly groups ( eg. masking / using older images when a friendly plane crosses the land). So people in the world can unite and track down extremist behaviour in the IS country. Make it easy to report suspicious behaviour and you can bomb the hell out of them as soon as they get out of their building with the help of the community. - The media should make fun with IS instead of addressing them as the big enemy. Make fun with the people who go there, target them as dumb ( if they had bad grades, ...) and change the public perspective for people who are compelled to go there because they hate where they live / feel discriminated because of social community problems - I have another idea, but that is morely to protect western nations. That should be hidden from public eye ;) - contact me if you would like to know :P Edit: If you're down voting at least make a comment please, Eg. how you think states/nations can handle it "better" My proposition are for the following intentions: less generalisation and less racisme ( not every muslim is IS! ), more public effort to help ( snitching extremists, finding IS members in their home country, ...), lessen the media appeal of IS for people with non-western feelings - living in Europe because of social problems in a country / community / city, ...
Steve44 11y ago
Reading that brought a tear to my eyes, he and many others live with this on a daily basis. The subject is long and complex and I think his sentence "This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win." is striking in its truth, simplicity and horror. Stay safe Salah-Eddin and thank you for your words.
amake 11y ago
> we are against their so called Islamic state, and against their retarded, barbaric version of Islam. The problem with irrational belief systems is that you have no rational basis for calling one version legit and one version "barbaric". Who's to say your interpretation is correct? Maybe theirs is. Better to recognize irrational beliefs for what they are and discard them entirely (to the degree that's possible).
- jacquesm 11y ago
  I think with barbaric he means to indicate they are willing to slaughter innocents. Just like the IRA was nominally Catholic and the Unionists/Loyalists were nominally protestant but in the meantime were happily bombing each others schools. Anybody serious about either religion would not bomb children, they'd be practicing a retarded barbaric version of Christianity.
  - amake 11y ago
    If you accept all of the other irrational tenets of the religion, then why not accept the idea that god wants you to bomb children? And if you believe that's really what god wants, then who are you to refuse?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      People will believe whatever it is that they want to believe, religious texts can be twisted to support just about any position, or the opposite to that position.
      - amake 11y ago
        > religious texts can be twisted to support just about any position ...which is exactly why I said we should reject irrational beliefs.
        jacquesm 11y ago
        You can, I can, which is 'we'. But we can not force others to reject their irrational beliefs.
Grue3 11y ago
Isn't current Syrian government also guilty of perpetrating acts of genocide against its own populace? This person is quick to denounce the other side, but Assad's forces have killed thousands of civilians as well. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Syria
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Assad falls smack in the middle of the 'lesser of two evils' category. As did several other now deposed leaders. Regime change is relatively easy, dealing with the fall-out is not.
- cturner 11y ago
  He isn't in a position to criticise Assad for exactly that reason. Nobody wants a knock on the door in the night.
- beshrkayali 11y ago
  The issue now is not whether Assad has committed crimes or not, that is for Syrians to decide on imho. The problem is that any criticism of foreign regime change operations (mainly led by US gov, hypocritically in the name of democracy, spending way too much money (look up US military budget) are countered with the accusation of being pro Assad. I, for one, am anti foreign regime change and have way too many things to say about Assad. There isn't that much defense that could be said for proposing that IS is nothing but an intelligence operation that got out of hand, read Operation Cyclone.
- pluma 11y ago
  Better the devil you know. The reason we (i.e. "The West") left Saddam in place until the US needed an easy target after 9/11 is that despite being a dictator and mass-murderer, his reign kept Iraq relatively stable. As soon as he was taken out of the equation other forces began to fight for dominance and now we have a huge mess on our hands that's arguably worse than where we started. The same is true for most of the dictatorships toppled during the "Arab Spring". This is partially why Russia was against intervening in Syria from day one and why nobody seems to think Saudi Arabia or Qatar or any of the other bloody dictatorships in that region are worth disrupting. In many cases the actual borders of these countries are pretty arbitrary and split up various ethno-religious groups (that often historically hate each others' guts) in weird ways. As soon as you tell them to self-govern and dispose of the dictators you end up with all these directly opposing interest groups suddenly being able to get at each others' throats. It's not that Assad is a nice person or that it's more ethical to leave an evil person in place than to dispose of him, it's just that mindlessly handing out guns and expecting an oppressed people to be rational is pretty much the worst thing you can do. Look at WW2 Germany. Sure, we got rid of Hitler, but in order to prevent Germany from blowing up again (exactly what had happened after WW1) the Allies actually had to work out long-term plans for the occupation of Germany to make sure the citizens were educated enough to understand how messed up their world view used to be and that the country was re-integrated into world economy and politics. We need a Marshall Plan for Syria with buy-in from several major influencers. THEN we can talk about disposing of Assad.
enesunal 11y ago
I'm Muslim and the problem is not about Islam. Problem is all about the people who want to gain money for themselves. I know a truth that makes sense anytime I remember; everything is related to money or sex in this world. Nothing else matters. Religion is just a tool to manage the money.
- sumedh 11y ago
  > I'm Muslim and the problem is not about Islam. Its time to get our heads out of the sand. Religion is part of the problem whether its Islam or Christianity etc. I agree other factors play a role too. Religion is the best tool to brainwash people.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Animal rights extremists don't use religion. Right wing extremists don't use religion. Left wing extremists didn't use religion. Radicalisation does not need religion.
    - echaozh 11y ago
      Religion is among the best tools to brainwash people then. If something really makes sense, you don't need people to believe it blindly.
    - kriztw 11y ago
      All of those are ideologies with certain views on how the world is and how it should be, which can also said of religions. If religions where purely spiritual and said nothing about the world then I would agree with you, but then I guess there wouldn't be any problems either.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        Sure, they're like religion. But the claim wasn't religion or things like religion lead to extremism. It's wrong to say that only religion leads to extremism, and it's even more wrong to say that only Islam leads to radicalisation.
thaway9837 11y ago
With all the respect for his contributions and good demeanor, sadly, this guy has no clue on what islam is and playin moslem like most of the 1.5 billion so called moslems. Which causes islam to be seen as a peaceful religion. No. Islam is the thing that creates these lunatics. I'm from Turkey, and I've been surrounded with islam for all my life. Problem with this kind of people is: they have created their own religion, by forking the concepts and names from islam. In fact, they have never read their holy book at all. They believe that, their self created branch of islam is the real one, and these radicals are just lunatics. Let's see if this is true. Moslems are ordered to kill and be killed in the name of allah http://quran.com/9/111 http://quran.com/9/111 Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. until there's no religion left other than islam. http://quran.com/2/193 http://quran.com/2/193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. http://quran.com/8/39 http://quran.com/8/39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do. Non believers are enemy http://quran.com/4/101 http://quran.com/4/101 Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy. Christians and jews are also enemy, but they may be spared for ransom/extortion. If they don't comply, or convert to islam, they must also be killed. http://quran.com/9/29 http://quran.com/9/29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Be enemies with your own family, if they do not believe in islam http://quran.com/9/23 http://quran.com/9/23 O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. And also fight in the name of allah starting from your relatives http://quran.com/9/123 http://quran.com/9/123 O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous. There are many more like these in quran. See, these are the quran's orders to muslims and those lunatics are just obeying the orders. The rest is just playing moslems having no idea on what islam is.
kushti 11y ago
It is time to stop terrorist states: ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and USA.
- ifdefdebug 11y ago
  I can't downvote, so here you got my -1 personally. edit: ok, let me explain: putting the USA and ISIS into the same bucket "terrorist states" is just moronic, that's why. happy downvoting.
  - zerr 11y ago
    A terrorist act approved with a stamp is still a terrorist act.
wangii 11y ago
the thing I never understand: why God/Allah even care if I believe in him or not?
- TheCoelacanth 11y ago
  Because a meme involving a god that doesn't care if you believe in him has low evolutionary fitness because believers have no reason to spread their belief.
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  What I've never understood is if these people believe so strongly in their God, and that he will punish them for apostasy, then why the hell do they have to kill them? It undermines their alleged faith.
finnjohnsen2 11y ago
Powerful stuff.
chappi42 11y ago
Wow, how brave he is. Once a long time a go I was in Aleppo. Such a nice town. Terrible how much destruction has happened. 'Normal countries' should help. I.e. fight a war against ISIS, kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship).
- mtanski 11y ago
  > kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship). Because that has worked so well in the (recent) past?
  - chappi42 11y ago
    This hasn't been tried yet afaik. Sure, I don't know how UN stewardship could be possible atm. But in a smaller better connected world, I think, we increasingly need a way to police failed/bad-behaving/suffering states. (Or better said, to help the people living in such states). The millions of refugees, spread of lunatic but well funded fundamentalism and the scope of terrorizing local neighborhoods hasn't been happened in the (recent) past. What else do you propose?
    - mtanski 11y ago
      > What else do you propose? I don't agree to the We Must Do Something, This Is Something sentiment. Clearly we have to get our arms around the situation. We UN should actually coordinate a plan to figure what we can do. Rushing to put soldiers on the ground always ends up complicating the situation further and it's a choice you cannot take back (seeing how we're still stuck in many places) years after.
joelgarciajr84 11y ago
I think we are tech people, whe should do something!
yeonJune 11y ago
It makes me sad that all I can do is just praying for Paris.
yeonJune 11y ago
It really makes us angry, but we should also know there are good Muslims who hope for the world of peace.
crishoj 11y ago
> [They] receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. I assume the author is alluding to Saudi Arabia here. How absurd is it not of the West to * on one hand is claim to oppose Islamic terrorism, while * on the other hand having among the closest allies in the region what probably amounts to the most radical, fundamentalist, human-rights abusing and not the least culturally and religiously influential states there, preaching religious intolerance to a world-wide audience of susceptible followers. Recently, Nicholas Nassim Taleb, author of Black Swan, wrote[1] a thoughtful commentary on the situation: > Since 2001 our policy for fighting Islamic terrorists has been, to put it politely, missing the elephant in the room, sort of like treating symptoms and completely missing the disease. > Policymakers and slow-thinking bureaucrats stupidly let terrorism grow by ignoring the roots. So we lost a generation: Someone who went to grammar school in Saudi Arabia (our “ally”) after September 11 is now an adult, indoctrinated into believing and supporting Salafi violence, hence encouraged to finance it — while we got distracted by the use of complicated weapons and machinery. > Even worse, the Wahhabis have accelerated their brainwashing of East and West Asians with their madrassas, thanks to high oil revenues. > * * * > So instead of invading Iraq, blowing up Jihadi John and individual terrorists, thus causing a multiplication of these agents, it would have been be easier to focus on the source of all problems: the Wahhabi/Salafi education and the promotion of intolerance by which a Shiite or a Yazidi or a Christian are deviant people. > If we absolutely need to put people in Guantanamo, it would be far more effective to ship the Salafi preachers and Wahhabi clerics over there, not just the people swayed by their teaching. And if we need to correct the profound Saudi problem, we need to start by sending to them our preachers, educating them into tolerance, explaining the very concept of the separation of church and state. Or, better even, encourage Muslim preachers who promote religious tolerance (“laka dinak wa li dini“) — instead of seeing them ostracized. > And if you find violence unavoidable, it should be directed at the Saudi and Qatari funders of violence, as well as the Salafi theorists, rather than the young performers. > P.S. Beware the usual ISIL crypto-sympathizer who sort of “explains” (that is, justifies) what happened (the intentional targeting of civilians) with some other Western event that can hark all the way to the Crusades… Otherwise it is presented as “biased.” You can spot such people from a mile away. For them, you cannot condemn ISIL without at the same time trying to be “balanced.” Who are they fooling? This is the technique of bundling together problems that should be treated independently, and you need to learn to deal with such people by forcing them to discuss the problem of ISIL on its own. [1] http://www.politico.eu/article/the-saudi-wahhabis-are-the-real-foe-islamic-terrorists-salafi-violence/ http://www.politico.eu/article/the-saudi-wahhabis-are-the-re... (edited for formatting)
ausjke 11y ago
I'm agnostic so really no prejudice on either side. I see so many religions/gods on earth and I feel Muslim is the one that stays with their stone age laws/rules without updating/revising the original released versions. Other religions seem evolving over time, but Muslim is different and I feel they are just so out, thus all these tragedies. Anything that has no ability to upgrade/evolve overtime is doomed to be losers, and losers will go crazy easily to blame others for their own failures. Democracy or staying-politically-correct or show-mercy-to-the-murder are all useless to combat this level of violence, the only way to really fix it, is either they evolve and modernize quickly, or get erased by a war at a large scale. It seems more likely the latter will be the case as they're turning everyone against them quickly. There are no good Muslim or bad Muslim, Muslim itself indeed is the root cause here.
- zombees 11y ago
  Islam?
- robwilliams 11y ago
  >Democracy or staying-politically-correct or show-mercy-to-the-murder are all useless to combat this level of violence, the only way to really fix it, is either they evolve and modernize quickly, or get erased by a war at a large scale. It seems more likely the latter will be the case as they're turning everyone against them quickly. Who is "them"? ISIS or Muslims in general? It's absurd to think that there aren't "modernized" Muslims in the US.
alvarosm 11y ago
It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths people go to stay in the land they're attached to. I'd have fled my country a very long time ago if I had ISIS that close.
- 1_player 11y ago
  I'm afraid it's not as easy as booking a flight and taking a cab to the airport.
  - alvarosm 11y ago
    It could be, depends on the circumstances. Of course you have a point, there are always family ties and so on. But even without leaving Syria I guess you could be at safer places than Aleppo.
    - scrollaway 11y ago
      That's one hell of a bubble. You do know that for a lot of people, it's simply impossible to move out of their city, especially in countries like Syria and Pakistan? Family ties are the least of their problems. Most people simply don't have a wad of cash to do this with.
      - alvarosm 11y ago
        4 million out of 17 have fled already. I'm not trying to blame anyone for anything, just saying. His decision to stay is his decision.
        scrollaway 11y ago
        Well that's my point. Those who can flee, do. Most people can't flee. And did you see the way we're treating refugees? Most people fail to understand there's even a war going on.
      - bluehex 11y ago
lottin 11y ago
As an atheist, I see Islam as a barbaric belief system of some ancient cave men. Sorry but I feel very difficult to empathise with people who in this day and age feel so strongly about religion.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  You are entitled to your opinion. As a Muslim, I feel sorry for those who don't get Islam's message yet believe they do when all they're seeing is the surface.
  - jules 11y ago
    I'm an atheist as well, but I realize that this may be just out of ignorance since I don't really know why somebody believes. Would you be willing to have a conversation about your faith so that I can understand the perspective of somebody who does believe?
    - Cyph0n 11y ago
      Of course! Keep in mind that I'm just an average Muslim, so I might not be able to address all of your questions.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - jules 11y ago
        That's great, because one of the things I wonder most is what faith is like in day to day experience. I'll send you an email :)
        utku_karatas2 11y ago
        You could also check out r/islam and post there for a wider audience.
  - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
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galfarragem 11y ago
The mistake, maybe an historical one, is that Europe, or better, the media insist in treating the symptoms instead of treating the causes.
tim333 11y ago
An interesting video summary of the history of the Syria war/mess (5 mins). You don't know who to blame really. It's a shame both Russia and Turkey said they were sending bombers to attack ISIS and then went after other targets instead (the anti Assad forces, Kurds respectively). http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9735102/syria-isis-history-video http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9735102/syria-isis-history-vid...
- mildweed 11y ago
  I've learned more about Islam, ISIS, and the state of affairs in Syria from this article than anywhere else. I wish I could TL;DR this one, but I can't. It's so full of details and context I wouldn't do it justice. It's a long one, but absolutely worth it. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...
msoad 11y ago
I born Muslim but quit religion as soon as I understood how everything works. I'm against every single organized religion. It's just a device for dictatorship in my opinion. But Islam is just like Christianity and other religions you might know. It's a old school of thought with super vague sources. Anyone can have their own take. I can read the Bible and say according to it I should kill and rape, same for Quran. They are all the same and they are all stupid. Don't discriminate between stupid religions!
MrPatan 11y ago
Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But people from shitty cultures are still people, so this obvious enormous fact goes completely unnoticed. They are not going to accept so easily that their culture is not good. It takes generations. Or it _took_ generations. Now it may not happen at all, because some people pride themselves on respecting and _preserving_ other people's silly cultures, instead of just respecting the people.
- gotchange 11y ago
  Migration patterns, really? People have been migrating from everywhere even from the west to the Gulf countries for quite some time now. Does this make their culture any better than any of the migrants'? Of course not as national wealth and net immigration numbers are not relevant in this discussion.
- wordbank 11y ago
  > All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. Why generalize? How about the core parts of Buddhism that are literally a checklist on how to calm your mind. And the same methods are used by modern psychotherapy as "cognitive behavioural therapy" and "mindfulness".
  - smokeyj 11y ago
    It's like tradition. You don't say it's tradition to eat dinner - because there's a clear and logical reason why. Meditation has empirical benefits. Meditation is good. If you believe you have to meditate to not go to flaming eternal hell, that's religion. So I'd argue, keep the logic, drop the religion.
    - wordbank 11y ago
pomfia 11y ago
I am not advocating blissful ignorance or anything, but I'd be really bothered if religious and political talk become commonplace here. I mean we are inundated with apologies, cynicism and hyperbole from facebook/twitter/reddit already. I will add something though. Why the apologies? The people apologizing have nothing to do with these acts and are pointless. Plus, why did all these barbarians start all this crap so recently ? Like after the 90's ?
deleted 11y ago
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paki123 11y ago
I think it's important to remember that a lot of muslims are just as "ignorant" of their own text, as many Christians and Jews are. For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum. Modern Christians and Jews often fall back on the excuse of interpreting their books as metaphors as opposed to the literal word of god. It's a great cop out. Islam isn't compatible with an open society, but neither is Christianity or Judaism(see part on homosexuality, yeah that's still in there). All religions are bullshit. Can we just end em all?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Modern Christians and Jews often fall back on the excuse of interpreting their books as metaphors as opposed to the literal word of god. It's a great cop out. While Christians have usually viewed some parts of the Bible literally (though not the same parts for different Christians in different times and places), the idea that the Bible is entirely to be understood literally (and the related idea that the Bible is the entire basis for Christianity) is a relatively new doctrine, belonging to a small (globally, though more prominent numerically and, even moreso, politically, in the US) subset of Christianity. (As the Bible directly contradicts itself on basic things like sequences of events in several places -- even within the first couple chapters of Genesis -- its also an internally inconsistent view, so its hard to see the alternative as a cop-out, since its the only possible internally-consistent approach.)
- akamel 11y ago
  > For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum. o.0 and that's in the Quran where? You talk with such certainty; seems to me _you_ are also very 'ignorant' of the Islamic Text
  - paki123 11y ago
    http://islamqa.info/en/5000 http://islamqa.info/en/5000
zanethomas 11y ago
i hope he has security
justboxing 11y ago
Gaeme Wood over at the Atlantic has a riveting piece on "What ISIS really wants". Best long form investigative journalism I've read in nearly a decade. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi... (Warning: It's really long, but answers a whole lot of questions that a whole lot of westerners, outsiders have about that group, the region, their funding, recruiting, idealogy and why they still haven't been defeated. Well worth a read.)
- marnett 11y ago
  thank you for sharing this. i have been listening to it for the past hour and it really is a brilliant piece.
  - eneveu 11y ago
    How did you listen to it? Are you using some text-to-speech software? I didn't find a link to download an audio version of the article.
mtw 11y ago
Is it possible to donate to a specific VLC contributor?
nononononono 11y ago
"It's only through God's mercy that we are not under their rule now." Great way of robbing the people who put their lives to save you of their contribution. Thanking god for a series of events is nothing more than ignoring reality. A series of events happened, and that's that.
ps4fanboy 11y ago
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html I am not sure how valid these translations are, but there seem to be a lot of incendiary passages in the Quran, how do we reconcile these view points with modern society. I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testament supersedes it?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testament supersedes it? Christian differ on the effect of the NT on the OT, since the NT contains both material that seems on the simplest reading to endorse the OT law in full, material which seems on the simplest reading to provide different and simpler rules than those in the OT law, and material which seems on the simplest reading to explicitly limit the application of most OT laws. In practice, you end up with a whole spectrum of ideologies among Christians (and the same is true of Muslims.)

1368 points by etix 11y ago

Isn't it sad that this has to be said at all? "Hey, not every adherent of a religion supports killing innocent people of a different religion". It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade.

huac 11y ago
Whereas the Catholic Church has a singular leader (the Pope), there is no equivalent in Islam. That is, currently - historically, Caliphs have been religious and political leaders. ISIS claims to take up that throne now, but...
- bad_user 11y ago
  Not sure what you mean, but as an Eastern Orthodox I do not recognize the catholic Pope or its authority.
  - huac 11y ago
    sure - and the same would be said by a Protestant or pretty much any other denomination of Christianity. my point is - while the Pope can speak for Catholics (and apologize), there is no Muslim equivalent to 'apologize' for terrorist activity. of course, the point is moot, because these terrorist attacks were not taken out by mainstream Muslims. the Crusades were officially backed by the Church and its leaders.
  - salex89 11y ago
    True, we do not. However, divisions between Christians in this day and age are not such deep or, let's say, unreasonable like between Muslims, obviously. All recent conflicts that may actually have religious elements (like the old SFRY) are much deeper than plain religion. Same goes for the constant tensions between Russia and western countries, not really much religion there.
kbart 11y ago
It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Just a nitpick, but Catholic church did apologize to muslims killed by the crusaders[0]. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope...
- jacquesm 11y ago
  It only took 800 years.
  - ousta 11y ago
    are you serious??? How long did it take for muslims representatives to say sorry about the invasions and conquest that led to the creation of crusades? I have yet to hear an apology.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It doesn't matter to me what the other side of a conflict does, what matters to me is what my side of a conflict does. The fact that we don't descend to the level of our opponents gives us at least a moral edge, and it might even give us a real edge in the longer run. The moral high ground is one that you give up at your peril. Not that the Catholic church in particular has much moral high ground left but at least they did this, good for them.
      - ousta 11y ago
        the thing your kind of people (which is the majority of people in the western world) will never understand is that barbary will always win against democracy. It is by saying sorry, teaching to people that you opressed them, enslaved them, telling them that they are a minority living with less chances and opportunities than a random "white man" well those same people will hate you for this, they will always see you as their enemy -just look at BLM in usa, the riots in french suburbs- and you gave them the tools. Hell I am myself a minority - coming from a muslim country - and get this because I lived in the suburbs of France and saw the global mindset of people there. This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win.
20kleagues 11y ago
I agree. As much as we would like to believe that most people on the ground would make rational decisions in the face of such atrocities and not blame entire groups, the reality is never that simple. Emotions usually prevail and people end up blaming entire groups just through those groups' 'guilt by association'. The fact that this was said by someone who has faced such horrors on a daily basis before is extremely respectful.
rmc 11y ago
> It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Or like Americans having to apologise for drone stikes, for Iraq and Afghanistan, and specific attacks like the MSF hospital in Kunduz.
- kbart 11y ago
  Or like Americans having to apologise for drone stikes, for Iraq and Afghanistan, and specific attacks like the MSF hospital in Kunduz. At least for Kunduz hospital, it has happened too[0]. Not downplaying other mentioned cases, just straightening some facts up. 0. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-idUSKCN0S10SX20151007 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-afghanistan-att...
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Well, those were done by the US government, which the US populace elects, so there is a measure of responsibility.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Also, since US is a democracy, it means that the people should be able to influence this behaviour of the government, so there's some responsibility in that it did not happen.
- pluma 11y ago
  To be fair, the US has had a reputation of sloppy warfare before 2001. The only difference between now and then is that it's happening to brown people instead of yellow people or black people.
phphphph 11y ago
No. The way our mind works, associations need to be strengthened for permanence (which is an extra-weird process because it can apparently modify memories). More importantly, he needs to get this off his chest. You find people to talk to in the msot unlikely places. Both language as encoding of thought and transmission are lossy. Rule of thumb: A sentence contains four different things: what I mean, what I say, what you hear and what you understand. Putting things into words already is an important part of how we for ourselves deal with the incomprehensible, the disturbing and revolting. Finding agreement, or at least getting feedback form others that our words form a comprehensible sentiment, heck - just knowing that we ended up with a gramatically well-formed sentence comforts us that the abyss between you and me, between you and everyone else can be bridged. tl;dr: it's great that it can be said.
Luc 11y ago
> Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade. I wonder how can you call the main motivation of these jihadists 'just a facade'?
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Because if their motivation was to spread Islam, there are better ways to do it.
  - Luc 11y ago
    But, but... they're an apocalyptic cult establishing a caliphate... Never mind.
  - pluma 11y ago
    How does "it's about religion" imply "they're trying to spread their religion"? It's about cultural dominance. It doesn't have to make heretics convert, it just has to make them scared of heresy. Terrorist attacks aren't about defeating the enemy, they're about terrorizing the enemy and inciting them to make the wrong decisions -- like mistreating peaceful Muslims and thereby supporting the Islamists' propaganda that this is a jihad in defence of Islam. The easiest way to gain sympathy is to portray yourself as the victim and your attacks as righteous self-defence.
slowmotiony 11y ago
Yes, suicide bombers shouting "Allah akhbar" is definitely political, nothing to do with religion at all.
- atmosx 11y ago
  The roots of this mess are political: France wanted Assad ousted at every cost, a policy that suited the US too since Assad was in business with Russia. That's why the ISIS was allowed to grow and receive funding. I know shocking isn't it? Now that France knows that the ISIS, retards as they are, are not easy to control. France will have to decide: Either you leave Syria to the Russians or you leave the ISIS be and hope your intelligence will be able to prevent terrorists. It's crystal clear that the population there wants and supports Assad. Obama's on the G20 made clear that the US are not going to change policy on the ISIS, which basically means that they will keep them restrained on one side, but continue to support them indirectly on the other. Putin of course offered his support in destroying ISIS, he for sure wants ISIS out of the picture, dead and buried. Turkey is playing a double-game, supporting the ISIS indirectly while condemning it's activities. It's a mess, but it's our mess. Someone should ask Hollande: "What is the reason the French military was there in the first place?" and the answer will be to enforce Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Some people really believe that. Truth is we should be apologizing to this old fella from Syria (the OP) because he is a victim of Western imperialism as much as we (Europeans) are.
  - wfn 11y ago
    Very well put.
  - realityking 11y ago
    > It's crystal clear that the population there wants and supports Assad. Do you have a source on that? From what I've read there are plenty of opposition groups still fighting Assad (and ISIS).
  - ocean3 11y ago
    Why are France interested in ousting Assad?
deleted 11y ago
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TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Though It's probably something Western Christians should still bear in mind when talking to or about muslims.
- deleted 11y ago
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calibraxis 11y ago
> Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade. Politics, markets and religion are greatly overlapping concepts! For example, an anthropologist points out that markets and major religions formed at the same time, and are frenemies. "Nowadays, the work of destroying such ways of life is still often done by missionaries–representatives of those very world religions that originally sprang up in reaction to the market long ago. Missionaries, of course, are out to save souls; but they rarely interpret this to mean their role is simply to teach people to accept God and be more altruistic. Almost invariably, they end up trying to convince people to be more selfish and more altruistic at the same time. On the one hand, they set out to teach the “natives” proper work discipline, and try to get them involved with buying and rolling products on the market, so as to better their material lot. At the same time, they explain to them that ultimately, material things are unimportant, and lecture on the value of the higher things, such as selfless devotion to others." (Originally from Harper’s Magazine, reprinted here: https://libcom.org/library/army-altruists-alienated-right-do-good https://libcom.org/library/army-altruists-alienated-right-do...) Note these inversions: - ISIS is Muslim. Sharia law economics is free market. (Adam Smith apparently cribbed many of his most famous arguments from medieval Persan free market theorists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Markets) - The US is capitalist. It's among the most fundamentalist religious. (About 40% believe Earth was created less than 10k years ago.) So-called "economics" and religion are duals. Very hard for those enmeshed in them to see.
- calibraxis 11y ago
  Excuse me for this absurd comment; I have a cold and there was really no point for it.
Squarel 11y ago
Indeed. I don't see anti-immigration people and Christians being asked to apologize for Breivik, nor all catholic priests being asked to distance themselves from the catholic scandal of the last decade.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  > all catholic priests being asked to distance themselves from the catholic scandal of the last decade. Catholics absolutely take heat for the various scandals over the years. It's just easier for most of them to distance themselves since few actually practice the faith...
- ptaipale 11y ago
  "I don't see anti-immigration people and Christians being asked to apologize for Breivik" Seriously, you don't? I've seen lots of comments where this and that politician or Christian leader is required to apologize "for their involvement" in the Breivik mass murder, which is nuts. All they've done is doubt whether the removal of border controls in Europe is a good idea. That's supposed to be enough for a guilt-by-association to Breivik's crimes as "incitement".
jules 11y ago
Up until a few weeks ago I used to think that religion is just a facade, but I no longer think that is true. Religion is the center of their beliefs, and a very important factor that drives their actions. When the Boston bomber says "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" he is not lying. This is what these people truly believe. They think the metaphysics of this universe works as follows. You walk into a theatre full of people with an assault rifle and start shooting people. This ensures your place in heaven next to God. Then you press the button on your suicide vest to teleport into heaven. Imagine that you were living in the Matrix but instead of a telephone, death is what lets you out of the Matrix. Furthermore, outside of the Matrix there is somebody who has been keeping score and this makes the difference between eternal bliss or eternal torture. The robots that run the Matrix have really engineered the world that way. This is what these people believe, or at least a medieval version of it. Another example is the Heaven's Gate suicide cult. Instead of being based on Islam they were based on Christianity. They though that Jesus was an alien and you can reach their UFO (= heaven) by committing suicide. And they did.
- seren 11y ago
  I believe it is a bit more complex. From the point of view of the bomber this is certainly true. But there are also people using their gullibility. I have read multiple times that Isis has amongst its member ex Baathist officer from Saddam, Ba'ath party which was at least originally more secular and left-leaning. I am pretty sure that some of these people are not that into the religious aspect, except as a recruiting and propaganda tool. The way I see it is that using the "Islam" brand is great way to have funds and international support/appeal. In the same way, in the sixties, you had plenty of nationalist movements all over the world that were claiming to be Communist. Sure it was also the hand of Moscow at work, but for local people, that was also a great way to secure some funding/weapons/etc from USSR. Also some of the bomber have allegedly married in Syria, possibly with children, I am not sure what would happen to their family if they defected.
  - jules 11y ago
    There are certainly multiple things at play here. I think the three main ones are: 1. Religion 2. Politics 3. Personal gain For instance the politics around hating the west and hating Israel, and personal gain in sex deprived young men getting to rape women in Syria and getting a salary that's 5x as much as the average Syrian. These three parts are intertwined and can't be separated from each other. Most media focuses solely on #2, but a theory built solely around #2 does not explain the behaviour of ISIS very well, whereas a theory built around all 3 aspects fits the data very well. As for the idea that high ranking members of ISIS do not truly believe in the ideology, and they are just manipulating everyone for personal gain, it is possible but I consider it unlikely. The leader of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult also committed suicide himself along with the others. And George Bush is himself a true Christian believer. I consider it unlikely that ISIS is an exception. It is interesting that the only people equipped to intuitively understand the sincerity of the metaphysical beliefs of a suicide bomber are those who are or were in a cult or fundamentalist religion. For instance Megan Phelps-Roper who left the Westboro Baptist Church does understand this.
gotchange 11y ago
Well, literal Islam is unfortunately a political ideology masquerading as a religion. You can't separate the politics from the "spirituals" in literal Islam. The more you're drawn to the literal flavor of religion, the more you are corrupted by the ideological views of the founder of Islam and his early followers and disciples i.e. the expansionism, imperialism, triumphalism ...etc Does this mean that there's no good Muslims out there? Of course not, there's plenty of them but the underlying problem is that the contemporary mainstream Sunni Islam has shifted from left to right by the early 70s thanks to the increasing influence of the Saudi petrodollar and the relentless exporting of the wahabist cultural product to predominantly Sunni Muslim countries and thus hard-line teachings of Sunni Islam became the norm and dominated the public sphere and one of its poisonous fruits sadly infected Paris over the weekend.

jacquesm 11y ago

> They control large areas of land, have their own oil fields, and receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. That's one of those things where we could make a fairly immediate change in policy, it would come at a cost, definitely but it would change the situation for IS for the worse far more effectively than any number of bombs dropped would do.

rihegher 11y ago
I don't see media speaking much about these countries that allows financing of ISIS. But if we want to eradicate ISIS, I too think we should deal with its financial sources first. Maybe because these countries are the same countries that western companies want to sell weapons to.
- seivan 11y ago
  A blind focus on ISIS is also a mistake as Al Nusrah (Al Qaida) is also heavily funded and commits atrocities as well. They are backed by Muslim Brotherhood from Turkey and operate in Syria. I consider Muslim Brotherhood with Khorasan group far more dangerous than ISIS and I recall reading that some where else, but can't find the source now. Fun Fact: The spokes person for Sweden funded Islamic Union is quite proud having his father happily punishing infidels in Idlib. Lovely guy.
- sbarre 11y ago
  Isn't it naive to think of these countries as one entity? Is the US, or any Western country, one unified allied voice where everyone has the same policies or supports the same causes? It's very likely that these "rich oil-producing countries" are made up of fragmented power centres and viewpoints, just like everywhere else in the world. Painting these countries all with one brush is about as foolish as painting Christianity (or Islam) with one brush too.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    But the fact is that they are a safe-heaven from the US anti-terror campaign. After 9/11, pretty much in any other country of the world the financiers of Al Qaeda would have been imprisoned or assassinated by the US and its allies. In Saudi Arabia or Qatar, not only they have not, but they are still heavily financing ISIS. Whether the monarchies are complicit or not, they are certainly not doing anything against this financing.

prodmerc 11y ago

With the immigration crisis and the Paris attacks, it seems that people completely forgot the atrocities that these nutjobs commit in their own home countries. Perhaps it doesn't really matter to most westerners, but we shouldn't blame a billion people for the insanity of a small part of them. It's a crazy situation, for sure...

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
People intentionally forget. Terrorist attacks are a convenient excuse to not allow refugees fleeing from the full terror of ISIS. We get one Paris. They get Paris every single day.

cs702 11y ago

By writing that message, he's making himself a potential target of terror, especially now that this is on the front page of HN and could be picked up by mainstream media. For safety's sake, I hope he contributes to VLC under a pseudonym and not under his real name.

eronhp 11y ago
He lives in Syria surrounded by terrorists, he is already a potential target for terror.
bduerst 11y ago
What you're communicating is essentially what "terrorists" are aiming to achieve and draw power from. Their attacks are targeted to maximize disruption of daily life and make people afraid of some unknown terror. Better to continue life as you normally would, be alert, and to not give in to fear.
- facepalm 11y ago
  I don't know - by the same token, if I don't walk in the middle of the road I am letting car culture win? Maybe if something is dangerous, it is better to avoid it. In this day and age whatever you say online can be read by billions. There are bound to be some nutjobs among them. So maybe it is just prudent to try to remain anonymous, as there are not only terrorists to fear.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That's fairly easy to write in an air conditioned office somewhere in the west, but it was a pretty brave thing to do this right in the middle of the action.
  - bduerst 11y ago
    Nobody said it's easy. I'm sitting in Paris right now, and it reflects the attitude of many of the citizens here. I know shop owners that stayed open over the weekend in defiance of what the terrorists were aiming to achieve.

downandout 11y ago

I simply do not understand why we don't bomb every last one of the oil wells they control. We could issue arrest warrants for the heads of every company that buys their oil for providing material support to terrorists, and freeze all assets of these companies in any country where the US has treaties that allow it. We don't have to shoot them; we can starve them.

dtf 11y ago
They've already done a pretty good job. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/isis-caliphate-setbacks-islamic-state-attacks-paris-tripoli http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/isis-caliphate-...

awjr 11y ago

So we need to drop a metaphorical bomb on the financial institutions that support these regimes?

Hytosys 11y ago
Why do you think that these financial institutions exist in the first place? Another piece of the puzzle: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/16/stock-prices-of-weapons-manufacturers-soaring-since-paris-attack/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/16/stock-prices-of-weapons-...

carlosrg 11y ago

I'm not sure if he's going to read this, but anyway: be strong. I think Western countries have finally understood that Daesh is a problem that can't be "contained", that the only way is to completely eradicate them, even if this means collaborating with governments that they don't like. This won't make terrorism disappear of course, but at least a lot of evil people, the same people trying to seduce young and naive muslims all around the world to join them, will cease to exist.

Wintamute 11y ago

This is why the response you often hear from some quarters: "these attacks have nothing to do with religion/Islam" is so objectionable. It silences all of the majority, ordinary, moderate Muslims that wish to reform their religion. https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/666305480369831936 https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/666305480369831936

iamthepieman 11y ago

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions and sects within the religion. I am Atlantean and go to an Atlantean church. I would not want to be called a Phoenician or Liliputian christian (made up names cause I don't want to offend anyone this early in the morning). Just as with anything else, the closer and more involved you are with something the more you see distinctions between different categories of that thing. As a total outsider your categories tend to be large, all encompassing and dominated by the loudest, most visible or most discussed sub category. For most westerners I think that sub category is, unfortunately radicalised Muslims. I'm fortunate that my coworker has given me a different perspective. I never believed all Muslims were radicalised but the true revelation for me was that my Muslim coworker was more like me than most non-muslims. It saddens me to see states in my country rejecting refugees from Syria. They are depriving their residents of potential friends and coworkers, potential spouses, neighbors or playmates that can give them a new perspective and help make their world a little larger and more interesting. Edit: I'd love to have a discussion with anyone who disagrees with me. (Not really making an argument but whatever) if you're down voting at least make a comment please.

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tobltobs 11y ago
Have you ever thought about that mixing religion and politics might be a reason for the mess in the islamic states?
- iamthepieman 11y ago
  Yes absolutely. That plus a history of the area being a frequent host to proxy wars, a source of the worlds most demanded natural resource and the seat of three of the worlds most prominent religions.

omginternets 11y ago

I'm living in Paris. I heard gunfire from my apartment. My heart goes out to Salah-Eddin, and all people living in the shadow of unspeakable abominations. It saddens me to imagine that simply hearing gunfire in the distance is nothing compared to what my fellow man has witnessed elsewhere. Salah-Eddin's condolences mean a lot to me and I wish him all the best. It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deployed to Syria in the near future, and that such an action will prove useful in protecting him, his family, his neighbors and his culture. For what it's worth, I've submitted an application to be a reservist in the French army. It's one month of training and 30 days of active duty per year. I sincerely hope my small effort will be helpful not only because it puts another man in the Parisian battlefield (yes... that's sadly what it has become), but also because it allows a better-qualified soldier to (hopefully) deploy to the Middle East. I don't presume to know whether or not my action is helpful, but I sincerely hope it is. I'm already quite busy with my dissertation defense coming up in a few short months, but this can do, so I will. I suppose I needed to get that off my chest as well...

seivan 11y ago
Good luck in the Army! The Middle East doesn't need more foreign bodybags (good or bad guys) but support, training and equipment. Last I checked they are begging for armor and winter gear.
- omginternets 11y ago
  I'm only going to be a weekend-warrior! Reservists essentially patrol Paris (especially airports and train stations), so there's zero chance of me going abroad unless I volunteer. Frankly, this is why I think enlisting as a reservist is a worthwhile and not-too-damaging thing to do. At the end of the day, someone needs to pull the trigger, sickening though this thought may be. I hope I won't have to, but I'd rather do that than watch my compatriots get butchered in their own streets. I'd rather do that then weep in my apartment like I did last Friday. I'm a few years shy of 30, I'm in good shape... if not me, then who? I mention this in case any other Frenchmen are lurking around. I know the army doesn't have a great reputation here, but this is a way to help out that doesn't even need to interfere with your work schedule. Your employer is required by law to allow you to pursue your missions, and you're paid a small amount during your active-duty days (though this is hardly the point). I can think of no clearer example of self-defense. >Last I checked they are begging for armor and winter gear. I wonder how difficult it would be to collect old winter clothes and send them over...

NicoJuicy 11y ago

This text could be kinda direct, but it's what i think could help to get a "solution" or more efficient approach to eliminate IS. - Bomb the oil fields, forget about politics/economics , don't let IS grow. Just take away their primary income so they'll internally bleed out... The people who come from Europe woudn't like it there if they don't receive any money. - Track down the big import behaviour of Western Products ( Red Bull, Nutella, Hummers, ... ) that IS terrorists love. Elimnate the import of it. They don't want Western products, no problem. Cut them off the economy and black market as quick as possible. - Make it illegal to buy black market oil from IS, track down people who want to have some quick money. - Invest in rebels that attack IS on the ground ( some people from France and the UK voluntarely go there) - If there is any proof of Middle East supports IS. Then take economic sanctions. Work together with Russia, America, Europe and China. Invest in oil alternatives FAST - Put a website online www.worldagainstterrorisme.com where there are a couple of big sections: - SnitchTerrrorists, to report abnormal behaviour. Make it so that you can see which ethicity/religion has reported them. So people would realize that muslims don't support extremist behaviour - LiveTarget, witch the cooperation of America, an online live sattelite map that limits to Syria and the part that IS controls. Limit the visibility of known friendly groups ( eg. masking / using older images when a friendly plane crosses the land). So people in the world can unite and track down extremist behaviour in the IS country. Make it easy to report suspicious behaviour and you can bomb the hell out of them as soon as they get out of their building with the help of the community. - The media should make fun with IS instead of addressing them as the big enemy. Make fun with the people who go there, target them as dumb ( if they had bad grades, ...) and change the public perspective for people who are compelled to go there because they hate where they live / feel discriminated because of social community problems - I have another idea, but that is morely to protect western nations. That should be hidden from public eye ;) - contact me if you would like to know :P Edit: If you're down voting at least make a comment please, Eg. how you think states/nations can handle it "better" My proposition are for the following intentions: less generalisation and less racisme ( not every muslim is IS! ), more public effort to help ( snitching extremists, finding IS members in their home country, ...), lessen the media appeal of IS for people with non-western feelings - living in Europe because of social problems in a country / community / city, ...

Steve44 11y ago

Reading that brought a tear to my eyes, he and many others live with this on a daily basis. The subject is long and complex and I think his sentence "This is a war of civilisations and way of life. and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win." is striking in its truth, simplicity and horror. Stay safe Salah-Eddin and thank you for your words.

amake 11y ago

> we are against their so called Islamic state, and against their retarded, barbaric version of Islam. The problem with irrational belief systems is that you have no rational basis for calling one version legit and one version "barbaric". Who's to say your interpretation is correct? Maybe theirs is. Better to recognize irrational beliefs for what they are and discard them entirely (to the degree that's possible).

jacquesm 11y ago
I think with barbaric he means to indicate they are willing to slaughter innocents. Just like the IRA was nominally Catholic and the Unionists/Loyalists were nominally protestant but in the meantime were happily bombing each others schools. Anybody serious about either religion would not bomb children, they'd be practicing a retarded barbaric version of Christianity.
- amake 11y ago
  If you accept all of the other irrational tenets of the religion, then why not accept the idea that god wants you to bomb children? And if you believe that's really what god wants, then who are you to refuse?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    People will believe whatever it is that they want to believe, religious texts can be twisted to support just about any position, or the opposite to that position.
    - amake 11y ago
      > religious texts can be twisted to support just about any position ...which is exactly why I said we should reject irrational beliefs.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        You can, I can, which is 'we'. But we can not force others to reject their irrational beliefs.

Grue3 11y ago

Isn't current Syrian government also guilty of perpetrating acts of genocide against its own populace? This person is quick to denounce the other side, but Assad's forces have killed thousands of civilians as well. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Syria

jacquesm 11y ago
Assad falls smack in the middle of the 'lesser of two evils' category. As did several other now deposed leaders. Regime change is relatively easy, dealing with the fall-out is not.
cturner 11y ago
He isn't in a position to criticise Assad for exactly that reason. Nobody wants a knock on the door in the night.
beshrkayali 11y ago
The issue now is not whether Assad has committed crimes or not, that is for Syrians to decide on imho. The problem is that any criticism of foreign regime change operations (mainly led by US gov, hypocritically in the name of democracy, spending way too much money (look up US military budget) are countered with the accusation of being pro Assad. I, for one, am anti foreign regime change and have way too many things to say about Assad. There isn't that much defense that could be said for proposing that IS is nothing but an intelligence operation that got out of hand, read Operation Cyclone.
pluma 11y ago
Better the devil you know. The reason we (i.e. "The West") left Saddam in place until the US needed an easy target after 9/11 is that despite being a dictator and mass-murderer, his reign kept Iraq relatively stable. As soon as he was taken out of the equation other forces began to fight for dominance and now we have a huge mess on our hands that's arguably worse than where we started. The same is true for most of the dictatorships toppled during the "Arab Spring". This is partially why Russia was against intervening in Syria from day one and why nobody seems to think Saudi Arabia or Qatar or any of the other bloody dictatorships in that region are worth disrupting. In many cases the actual borders of these countries are pretty arbitrary and split up various ethno-religious groups (that often historically hate each others' guts) in weird ways. As soon as you tell them to self-govern and dispose of the dictators you end up with all these directly opposing interest groups suddenly being able to get at each others' throats. It's not that Assad is a nice person or that it's more ethical to leave an evil person in place than to dispose of him, it's just that mindlessly handing out guns and expecting an oppressed people to be rational is pretty much the worst thing you can do. Look at WW2 Germany. Sure, we got rid of Hitler, but in order to prevent Germany from blowing up again (exactly what had happened after WW1) the Allies actually had to work out long-term plans for the occupation of Germany to make sure the citizens were educated enough to understand how messed up their world view used to be and that the country was re-integrated into world economy and politics. We need a Marshall Plan for Syria with buy-in from several major influencers. THEN we can talk about disposing of Assad.

enesunal 11y ago

I'm Muslim and the problem is not about Islam. Problem is all about the people who want to gain money for themselves. I know a truth that makes sense anytime I remember; everything is related to money or sex in this world. Nothing else matters. Religion is just a tool to manage the money.

sumedh 11y ago
> I'm Muslim and the problem is not about Islam. Its time to get our heads out of the sand. Religion is part of the problem whether its Islam or Christianity etc. I agree other factors play a role too. Religion is the best tool to brainwash people.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Animal rights extremists don't use religion. Right wing extremists don't use religion. Left wing extremists didn't use religion. Radicalisation does not need religion.
  - echaozh 11y ago
    Religion is among the best tools to brainwash people then. If something really makes sense, you don't need people to believe it blindly.
  - kriztw 11y ago
    All of those are ideologies with certain views on how the world is and how it should be, which can also said of religions. If religions where purely spiritual and said nothing about the world then I would agree with you, but then I guess there wouldn't be any problems either.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Sure, they're like religion. But the claim wasn't religion or things like religion lead to extremism. It's wrong to say that only religion leads to extremism, and it's even more wrong to say that only Islam leads to radicalisation.

thaway9837 11y ago

With all the respect for his contributions and good demeanor, sadly, this guy has no clue on what islam is and playin moslem like most of the 1.5 billion so called moslems. Which causes islam to be seen as a peaceful religion. No. Islam is the thing that creates these lunatics. I'm from Turkey, and I've been surrounded with islam for all my life. Problem with this kind of people is: they have created their own religion, by forking the concepts and names from islam. In fact, they have never read their holy book at all. They believe that, their self created branch of islam is the real one, and these radicals are just lunatics. Let's see if this is true. Moslems are ordered to kill and be killed in the name of allah http://quran.com/9/111 http://quran.com/9/111 Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. until there's no religion left other than islam. http://quran.com/2/193 http://quran.com/2/193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. http://quran.com/8/39 http://quran.com/8/39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do. Non believers are enemy http://quran.com/4/101 http://quran.com/4/101 Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy. Christians and jews are also enemy, but they may be spared for ransom/extortion. If they don't comply, or convert to islam, they must also be killed. http://quran.com/9/29 http://quran.com/9/29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Be enemies with your own family, if they do not believe in islam http://quran.com/9/23 http://quran.com/9/23 O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. And also fight in the name of allah starting from your relatives http://quran.com/9/123 http://quran.com/9/123 O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous. There are many more like these in quran. See, these are the quran's orders to muslims and those lunatics are just obeying the orders. The rest is just playing moslems having no idea on what islam is.

kushti 11y ago

It is time to stop terrorist states: ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and USA.

ifdefdebug 11y ago
I can't downvote, so here you got my -1 personally. edit: ok, let me explain: putting the USA and ISIS into the same bucket "terrorist states" is just moronic, that's why. happy downvoting.
- zerr 11y ago
  A terrorist act approved with a stamp is still a terrorist act.

wangii 11y ago

the thing I never understand: why God/Allah even care if I believe in him or not?

TheCoelacanth 11y ago
Because a meme involving a god that doesn't care if you believe in him has low evolutionary fitness because believers have no reason to spread their belief.
happyscrappy 11y ago
What I've never understood is if these people believe so strongly in their God, and that he will punish them for apostasy, then why the hell do they have to kill them? It undermines their alleged faith.

finnjohnsen2 11y ago

Powerful stuff.

chappi42 11y ago

Wow, how brave he is. Once a long time a go I was in Aleppo. Such a nice town. Terrible how much destruction has happened. 'Normal countries' should help. I.e. fight a war against ISIS, kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship).

mtanski 11y ago
> kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship). Because that has worked so well in the (recent) past?
- chappi42 11y ago
  This hasn't been tried yet afaik. Sure, I don't know how UN stewardship could be possible atm. But in a smaller better connected world, I think, we increasingly need a way to police failed/bad-behaving/suffering states. (Or better said, to help the people living in such states). The millions of refugees, spread of lunatic but well funded fundamentalism and the scope of terrorizing local neighborhoods hasn't been happened in the (recent) past. What else do you propose?
  - mtanski 11y ago
    > What else do you propose? I don't agree to the We Must Do Something, This Is Something sentiment. Clearly we have to get our arms around the situation. We UN should actually coordinate a plan to figure what we can do. Rushing to put soldiers on the ground always ends up complicating the situation further and it's a choice you cannot take back (seeing how we're still stuck in many places) years after.

joelgarciajr84 11y ago

I think we are tech people, whe should do something!

yeonJune 11y ago

It makes me sad that all I can do is just praying for Paris.

yeonJune 11y ago

It really makes us angry, but we should also know there are good Muslims who hope for the world of peace.

crishoj 11y ago

> [They] receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. I assume the author is alluding to Saudi Arabia here. How absurd is it not of the West to * on one hand is claim to oppose Islamic terrorism, while * on the other hand having among the closest allies in the region what probably amounts to the most radical, fundamentalist, human-rights abusing and not the least culturally and religiously influential states there, preaching religious intolerance to a world-wide audience of susceptible followers. Recently, Nicholas Nassim Taleb, author of Black Swan, wrote[1] a thoughtful commentary on the situation: > Since 2001 our policy for fighting Islamic terrorists has been, to put it politely, missing the elephant in the room, sort of like treating symptoms and completely missing the disease. > Policymakers and slow-thinking bureaucrats stupidly let terrorism grow by ignoring the roots. So we lost a generation: Someone who went to grammar school in Saudi Arabia (our “ally”) after September 11 is now an adult, indoctrinated into believing and supporting Salafi violence, hence encouraged to finance it — while we got distracted by the use of complicated weapons and machinery. > Even worse, the Wahhabis have accelerated their brainwashing of East and West Asians with their madrassas, thanks to high oil revenues. > * * * > So instead of invading Iraq, blowing up Jihadi John and individual terrorists, thus causing a multiplication of these agents, it would have been be easier to focus on the source of all problems: the Wahhabi/Salafi education and the promotion of intolerance by which a Shiite or a Yazidi or a Christian are deviant people. > If we absolutely need to put people in Guantanamo, it would be far more effective to ship the Salafi preachers and Wahhabi clerics over there, not just the people swayed by their teaching. And if we need to correct the profound Saudi problem, we need to start by sending to them our preachers, educating them into tolerance, explaining the very concept of the separation of church and state. Or, better even, encourage Muslim preachers who promote religious tolerance (“laka dinak wa li dini“) — instead of seeing them ostracized. > And if you find violence unavoidable, it should be directed at the Saudi and Qatari funders of violence, as well as the Salafi theorists, rather than the young performers. > P.S. Beware the usual ISIL crypto-sympathizer who sort of “explains” (that is, justifies) what happened (the intentional targeting of civilians) with some other Western event that can hark all the way to the Crusades… Otherwise it is presented as “biased.” You can spot such people from a mile away. For them, you cannot condemn ISIL without at the same time trying to be “balanced.” Who are they fooling? This is the technique of bundling together problems that should be treated independently, and you need to learn to deal with such people by forcing them to discuss the problem of ISIL on its own. [1] http://www.politico.eu/article/the-saudi-wahhabis-are-the-real-foe-islamic-terrorists-salafi-violence/ http://www.politico.eu/article/the-saudi-wahhabis-are-the-re... (edited for formatting)

ausjke 11y ago

I'm agnostic so really no prejudice on either side. I see so many religions/gods on earth and I feel Muslim is the one that stays with their stone age laws/rules without updating/revising the original released versions. Other religions seem evolving over time, but Muslim is different and I feel they are just so out, thus all these tragedies. Anything that has no ability to upgrade/evolve overtime is doomed to be losers, and losers will go crazy easily to blame others for their own failures. Democracy or staying-politically-correct or show-mercy-to-the-murder are all useless to combat this level of violence, the only way to really fix it, is either they evolve and modernize quickly, or get erased by a war at a large scale. It seems more likely the latter will be the case as they're turning everyone against them quickly. There are no good Muslim or bad Muslim, Muslim itself indeed is the root cause here.

zombees 11y ago
Islam?
robwilliams 11y ago
>Democracy or staying-politically-correct or show-mercy-to-the-murder are all useless to combat this level of violence, the only way to really fix it, is either they evolve and modernize quickly, or get erased by a war at a large scale. It seems more likely the latter will be the case as they're turning everyone against them quickly. Who is "them"? ISIS or Muslims in general? It's absurd to think that there aren't "modernized" Muslims in the US.

alvarosm 11y ago

It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths people go to stay in the land they're attached to. I'd have fled my country a very long time ago if I had ISIS that close.

1_player 11y ago
I'm afraid it's not as easy as booking a flight and taking a cab to the airport.
- alvarosm 11y ago
  It could be, depends on the circumstances. Of course you have a point, there are always family ties and so on. But even without leaving Syria I guess you could be at safer places than Aleppo.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    That's one hell of a bubble. You do know that for a lot of people, it's simply impossible to move out of their city, especially in countries like Syria and Pakistan? Family ties are the least of their problems. Most people simply don't have a wad of cash to do this with.
    - alvarosm 11y ago
      4 million out of 17 have fled already. I'm not trying to blame anyone for anything, just saying. His decision to stay is his decision.
      - scrollaway 11y ago
        Well that's my point. Those who can flee, do. Most people can't flee. And did you see the way we're treating refugees? Most people fail to understand there's even a war going on.
    - bluehex 11y ago

lottin 11y ago

As an atheist, I see Islam as a barbaric belief system of some ancient cave men. Sorry but I feel very difficult to empathise with people who in this day and age feel so strongly about religion.

Cyph0n 11y ago
You are entitled to your opinion. As a Muslim, I feel sorry for those who don't get Islam's message yet believe they do when all they're seeing is the surface.
- jules 11y ago
  I'm an atheist as well, but I realize that this may be just out of ignorance since I don't really know why somebody believes. Would you be willing to have a conversation about your faith so that I can understand the perspective of somebody who does believe?
  - Cyph0n 11y ago
    Of course! Keep in mind that I'm just an average Muslim, so I might not be able to address all of your questions.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - jules 11y ago
      That's great, because one of the things I wonder most is what faith is like in day to day experience. I'll send you an email :)
      - utku_karatas2 11y ago
        You could also check out r/islam and post there for a wider audience.
- 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

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galfarragem 11y ago

The mistake, maybe an historical one, is that Europe, or better, the media insist in treating the symptoms instead of treating the causes.

tim333 11y ago

An interesting video summary of the history of the Syria war/mess (5 mins). You don't know who to blame really. It's a shame both Russia and Turkey said they were sending bombers to attack ISIS and then went after other targets instead (the anti Assad forces, Kurds respectively). http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9735102/syria-isis-history-video http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9735102/syria-isis-history-vid...

mildweed 11y ago
I've learned more about Islam, ISIS, and the state of affairs in Syria from this article than anywhere else. I wish I could TL;DR this one, but I can't. It's so full of details and context I wouldn't do it justice. It's a long one, but absolutely worth it. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

msoad 11y ago

I born Muslim but quit religion as soon as I understood how everything works. I'm against every single organized religion. It's just a device for dictatorship in my opinion. But Islam is just like Christianity and other religions you might know. It's a old school of thought with super vague sources. Anyone can have their own take. I can read the Bible and say according to it I should kill and rape, same for Quran. They are all the same and they are all stupid. Don't discriminate between stupid religions!

MrPatan 11y ago

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But people from shitty cultures are still people, so this obvious enormous fact goes completely unnoticed. They are not going to accept so easily that their culture is not good. It takes generations. Or it _took_ generations. Now it may not happen at all, because some people pride themselves on respecting and _preserving_ other people's silly cultures, instead of just respecting the people.

gotchange 11y ago
Migration patterns, really? People have been migrating from everywhere even from the west to the Gulf countries for quite some time now. Does this make their culture any better than any of the migrants'? Of course not as national wealth and net immigration numbers are not relevant in this discussion.
wordbank 11y ago
> All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. Why generalize? How about the core parts of Buddhism that are literally a checklist on how to calm your mind. And the same methods are used by modern psychotherapy as "cognitive behavioural therapy" and "mindfulness".
- smokeyj 11y ago
  It's like tradition. You don't say it's tradition to eat dinner - because there's a clear and logical reason why. Meditation has empirical benefits. Meditation is good. If you believe you have to meditate to not go to flaming eternal hell, that's religion. So I'd argue, keep the logic, drop the religion.
  - wordbank 11y ago

pomfia 11y ago

I am not advocating blissful ignorance or anything, but I'd be really bothered if religious and political talk become commonplace here. I mean we are inundated with apologies, cynicism and hyperbole from facebook/twitter/reddit already. I will add something though. Why the apologies? The people apologizing have nothing to do with these acts and are pointless. Plus, why did all these barbarians start all this crap so recently ? Like after the 90's ?

deleted 11y ago

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paki123 11y ago

I think it's important to remember that a lot of muslims are just as "ignorant" of their own text, as many Christians and Jews are. For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum. Modern Christians and Jews often fall back on the excuse of interpreting their books as metaphors as opposed to the literal word of god. It's a great cop out. Islam isn't compatible with an open society, but neither is Christianity or Judaism(see part on homosexuality, yeah that's still in there). All religions are bullshit. Can we just end em all?

dragonwriter 11y ago
> Modern Christians and Jews often fall back on the excuse of interpreting their books as metaphors as opposed to the literal word of god. It's a great cop out. While Christians have usually viewed some parts of the Bible literally (though not the same parts for different Christians in different times and places), the idea that the Bible is entirely to be understood literally (and the related idea that the Bible is the entire basis for Christianity) is a relatively new doctrine, belonging to a small (globally, though more prominent numerically and, even moreso, politically, in the US) subset of Christianity. (As the Bible directly contradicts itself on basic things like sequences of events in several places -- even within the first couple chapters of Genesis -- its also an internally inconsistent view, so its hard to see the alternative as a cop-out, since its the only possible internally-consistent approach.)
akamel 11y ago
> For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum. o.0 and that's in the Quran where? You talk with such certainty; seems to me _you_ are also very 'ignorant' of the Islamic Text
- paki123 11y ago
  http://islamqa.info/en/5000 http://islamqa.info/en/5000

zanethomas 11y ago

i hope he has security

justboxing 11y ago

Gaeme Wood over at the Atlantic has a riveting piece on "What ISIS really wants". Best long form investigative journalism I've read in nearly a decade. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi... (Warning: It's really long, but answers a whole lot of questions that a whole lot of westerners, outsiders have about that group, the region, their funding, recruiting, idealogy and why they still haven't been defeated. Well worth a read.)

marnett 11y ago
thank you for sharing this. i have been listening to it for the past hour and it really is a brilliant piece.
- eneveu 11y ago
  How did you listen to it? Are you using some text-to-speech software? I didn't find a link to download an audio version of the article.

mtw 11y ago

Is it possible to donate to a specific VLC contributor?

nononononono 11y ago

"It's only through God's mercy that we are not under their rule now." Great way of robbing the people who put their lives to save you of their contribution. Thanking god for a series of events is nothing more than ignoring reality. A series of events happened, and that's that.

ps4fanboy 11y ago

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html I am not sure how valid these translations are, but there seem to be a lot of incendiary passages in the Quran, how do we reconcile these view points with modern society. I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testament supersedes it?

dragonwriter 11y ago
> I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testament supersedes it? Christian differ on the effect of the NT on the OT, since the NT contains both material that seems on the simplest reading to endorse the OT law in full, material which seems on the simplest reading to provide different and simpler rules than those in the OT law, and material which seems on the simplest reading to explicitly limit the application of most OT laws. In practice, you end up with a whole spectrum of ideologies among Christians (and the same is true of Muslims.)