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If someone is able to build with a tool something that a developer would build with code, they are practically a developer (especially if the market starts to i

If someone is able to build with a tool something that a developer would build with code, they are practically a developer (especially if the market starts to identify them as such). Your hiring needs and classic dictionary definitions notwithstanding. Could it be that programming is being commoditized and we don't want to accept it?

rco8786 11y ago
Hmm. Does that mean anyone who makes a spreadsheet is a developer? What about photoshop users?
- matwood 11y ago
  Spreadsheets, and Excel in particular is a type of gateway drug for people to become developers. First they put in a few numbers and see things happen and before long they are writing small scripts in Excel to automate. At some point they could at least be called an Excel developer.
- n0us 11y ago
  depends, you can do some powerful things in spreadsheets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnliT7iHtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnliT7iHtI You can also script photoshop, so if you are actually "developing" for photoshop then I would say yes although that would be certainly an unconventional way to join the trade.
- Moto7451 11y ago
  The members of the finance department at my work are definitely programmers. Their spreadsheets define exceptionally complex functionality and they even work a bit in VBA. When Excel is no longer powerful enough they write a little bit of SQL and run it through a Data Connector. Dismissing what they do as "not programming" is incorrect. We call programmers who only know how to glue vendor APIs together "developers", so we should extend the same professional courtesy to people doing a similar level of programming.
sixdimensional 11y ago
The OP's sentiment runs the risk of alienating people who would potentially be interested in pursuing a more "traditional" software engineering or development career. I am not sure that is ultimately a good thing. I guess as a technical community, there are at least two forces at work here: 1) The community wants to be as inclusive as possible - get as many people to code as possible, because it is good for everyone to be able to contribute, even if it is using a higher-level tool/abstraction that does much of what we would do writing code by hand manually; and/or 2) The community wants to distinguish itself clearly based on skill-level at some level of core competency or abstraction.
- MisterBastahrd 11y ago
  Of course the community wants to be inclusive as possible, even if it means appropriating titles they have no business associating with. Like a former salesperson at a startup with a few months of fumbling around with jquery documentation who calls himself an "engineer."
  - sixdimensional 11y ago
    I agree there is a challenge here, with misrepresentation or misappropriation of skill levels. Trust but verify? Still, let's find a solution as a community. How do we make it easier for people to enter the profession and leave the barrier for entry low while also making it easier for those in the profession to prove their skill-level and commitment to a specific track of the craft?
    - nofearinc 11y ago
      A few ideas: 1) A public list of recognized job titles (think of an employment bureau catalog or else) that defines the job description by an authority. At least a reference that most would pay attention to. 2) A unified training program for each branch (or developers in question) outlining the required skills or targets for developers 3) A WordPress.org profile that showcases the work in a better manner - think of a GitHub/LinkedIn version in the WordPress context I also wouldn't necessarily vouch for a licensing program (probably commercial/financial interests), but some standardization and guidelines could help immensely and solve various problems for employers, clients, expert and beginner developers, site builders, even users.
learc83 11y ago
>If someone is able to build with a tool something that a developer would build with code If they could actually do this, yes it would. But they can't actually build something that a developer would build with code. If someone can't code at all, they can use WordPress to build a very small subset of what a developer can build with code. A person who spend 30 seconds setting up a blog on tumblr is able to build something that a developer would build with code, but again it's just a small subset. Now if that subset is all you need then it's fine to hire WordPress admin instead of a developer. But the term "developer" has a current meaning, and that meaning is analogous to "programmer". That being said, language changes, and developer could become another meaningless job title like engineer (in some countries), and people will have to use another term for someone who can code. There are ways to prevent this, in some jurisdictions they limit the use of titles like Engineer.
- lotyrin 11y ago
  It wasn't that long ago (in society scale, the scale that most of these people's clients reckon with, not on technology scale that most readers here will use) that you couldn't just configure up an interactive publishing workflow, something these folks deliver, and would have to hire someone to "develop" it to your needs. I think it is that context in which they are called developers.
  - learc83 11y ago
    That's the case for almost everyone who uses any software to build anything. Not too long ago, an off the shelf solution didn't exist for anything, so you had to hire someone to build it from scratch. By that definition, almost anyone should be called a "developer". 20 years ago, you needed to be a developer to set up a small homepage. Now my grandma can do that with Facebook, but I'm not going to call her a "developer" just because she's doing something that used to require one.
JustSomeNobody 11y ago
Some will be. Some won't be. WordPress developer, sure. O.S. developer much less likely.

rco8786 11y ago

Hmm. Does that mean anyone who makes a spreadsheet is a developer? What about photoshop users?

matwood 11y ago
Spreadsheets, and Excel in particular is a type of gateway drug for people to become developers. First they put in a few numbers and see things happen and before long they are writing small scripts in Excel to automate. At some point they could at least be called an Excel developer.
n0us 11y ago
depends, you can do some powerful things in spreadsheets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnliT7iHtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnliT7iHtI You can also script photoshop, so if you are actually "developing" for photoshop then I would say yes although that would be certainly an unconventional way to join the trade.
Moto7451 11y ago
The members of the finance department at my work are definitely programmers. Their spreadsheets define exceptionally complex functionality and they even work a bit in VBA. When Excel is no longer powerful enough they write a little bit of SQL and run it through a Data Connector. Dismissing what they do as "not programming" is incorrect. We call programmers who only know how to glue vendor APIs together "developers", so we should extend the same professional courtesy to people doing a similar level of programming.

sixdimensional 11y ago

The OP's sentiment runs the risk of alienating people who would potentially be interested in pursuing a more "traditional" software engineering or development career. I am not sure that is ultimately a good thing. I guess as a technical community, there are at least two forces at work here: 1) The community wants to be as inclusive as possible - get as many people to code as possible, because it is good for everyone to be able to contribute, even if it is using a higher-level tool/abstraction that does much of what we would do writing code by hand manually; and/or 2) The community wants to distinguish itself clearly based on skill-level at some level of core competency or abstraction.

MisterBastahrd 11y ago
Of course the community wants to be inclusive as possible, even if it means appropriating titles they have no business associating with. Like a former salesperson at a startup with a few months of fumbling around with jquery documentation who calls himself an "engineer."
- sixdimensional 11y ago
  I agree there is a challenge here, with misrepresentation or misappropriation of skill levels. Trust but verify? Still, let's find a solution as a community. How do we make it easier for people to enter the profession and leave the barrier for entry low while also making it easier for those in the profession to prove their skill-level and commitment to a specific track of the craft?
  - nofearinc 11y ago
    A few ideas: 1) A public list of recognized job titles (think of an employment bureau catalog or else) that defines the job description by an authority. At least a reference that most would pay attention to. 2) A unified training program for each branch (or developers in question) outlining the required skills or targets for developers 3) A WordPress.org profile that showcases the work in a better manner - think of a GitHub/LinkedIn version in the WordPress context I also wouldn't necessarily vouch for a licensing program (probably commercial/financial interests), but some standardization and guidelines could help immensely and solve various problems for employers, clients, expert and beginner developers, site builders, even users.

learc83 11y ago

>If someone is able to build with a tool something that a developer would build with code If they could actually do this, yes it would. But they can't actually build something that a developer would build with code. If someone can't code at all, they can use WordPress to build a very small subset of what a developer can build with code. A person who spend 30 seconds setting up a blog on tumblr is able to build something that a developer would build with code, but again it's just a small subset. Now if that subset is all you need then it's fine to hire WordPress admin instead of a developer. But the term "developer" has a current meaning, and that meaning is analogous to "programmer". That being said, language changes, and developer could become another meaningless job title like engineer (in some countries), and people will have to use another term for someone who can code. There are ways to prevent this, in some jurisdictions they limit the use of titles like Engineer.

lotyrin 11y ago
It wasn't that long ago (in society scale, the scale that most of these people's clients reckon with, not on technology scale that most readers here will use) that you couldn't just configure up an interactive publishing workflow, something these folks deliver, and would have to hire someone to "develop" it to your needs. I think it is that context in which they are called developers.
- learc83 11y ago
  That's the case for almost everyone who uses any software to build anything. Not too long ago, an off the shelf solution didn't exist for anything, so you had to hire someone to build it from scratch. By that definition, almost anyone should be called a "developer". 20 years ago, you needed to be a developer to set up a small homepage. Now my grandma can do that with Facebook, but I'm not going to call her a "developer" just because she's doing something that used to require one.

JustSomeNobody 11y ago

Some will be. Some won't be. WordPress developer, sure. O.S. developer much less likely.