7 ms·

This soils the reputation of islam. I know some good people (muslims) who suffer from prejudice on a daily basis because of attacks like these. Being a muslim

This soils the reputation of islam. I know some good people (muslims) who suffer from prejudice on a daily basis because of attacks like these. Being a muslim in a foreign country is an increasingly difficult and isolating experience.

jacquesm 11y ago
Unfortunately in the eyes of many that reputation could not get much lower. What is a bigger problem is that it will further divide nations regardless of reputation of a religion it will affect any and all who are perceived as either Islamic, Arabic, African, dark skinned or any combination of the above in a negative and measurable way.
imaginenore 11y ago
Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60 http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...
- dang 11y ago
  > Islam soils the reputation of islam. No slurs, please. We've already banned one account for turning this thread into a religious flamewar. Comments here need to stay factual.
  - imaginenore 11y ago
    I did stay factual, I even provided a link. If you're going to restrict speech, restrict all mentions of religion, not just the ones that contradict your preconceived notion.
    - deciplex 11y ago
      Indeed. The moderation in this thread has been supremely disappointing. Your post contained no slurs, only an interpretation of data along with a link.
      - davesque 11y ago
        No. What dang quoted was a slur. Definition from http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/slur http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...: "An insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation" Saying that "Islam soils the reputation of islam" is a slur by any reasonable interpretation. The link provided some information but the first sentence did nothing to that effect and was simply inflammatory.
        deciplex 11y ago
        This wasn't a mere insinuation, this was a claim made along with some study linked in support of the claim. And since the topic at hand is precisely Islam's reputation in the first place, it seems we can't have any conversation about Islam's reputation for violence (deserved or not), and what to do about it, at all. If your goal is to integrate Muslims living in Western nations into Western society, what is going on here is not helping to achieve it.
        davesque 11y ago
        The OP began by saying "Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism." Without further proof, that statement is an allegation at best and a slur at worst (especially if the following proof doesn't hold up). He then went on to say "42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall)." So why wasn't his original statement "Islam in France among 42% of Muslims less than 30 years of age (that were prompted to answer a survey question in an environment we know nothing about) soils the reputation of Islam?" So, he began by making a broad generalization about Islam as a whole and then quoted a statistical observation about a small percentage of Muslims. Sorry, but 2 + 2 = 4. Broad generalization + no proof = slur.
- e12e 11y ago
  I'm sure that if you did a survey of disenfranchised white youth in the US, you'd find a lot of people volunteering to enlist, and you could probably get some sympathy for the need to "go kill ISIS" or some other media-oriented headline. France has many issues, I doubt any of them are truly deeply connected to Islam. But it is of course easier to point at religion as the source of civil unrest, rather than at a failing economy, systematic discrimination and a growing divide between rich and poor.
  - imaginenore 11y ago
    ISIS is a jihadist terrorist organization, and that's recognized by most governments, many Islamic ones even. It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean. What happened today was not "civil unrest".
    - aianus 11y ago
      > It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean. That's all well and good to say when you know enlisting in the US military in conventional warfare against ISIS has a good chance of succeeding. But what if the US was the small poor state and ISIS was the world's largest economy whose military targets were too well-defended to attack? I'm sure you'd find lots of recruits in Texas for "guerilla special units behind enemy lines". Especially if cruise missiles and drone strikes were hitting US soil every other day.
      - m_mueller 11y ago
        I find this relativism disconcerting. Please explain how targeting innocent civilians for their ethnicity or beliefs is equal to military vs. military operations. Most of the world is shades of grey but one has to recognize when an ideology is clearly a danger to human society and needs to be fought against. Whether and how violent the means need to be is up for discussion, I just can't understand why people would downplay what ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban and similar groups are doing. Just because the term "Freedom Fighters" has long been intemixed with Terrorism doesn't mean that it applies here. IMO most of these groups don't want to 'liberate' people, instead they want to either bind them to their religious ideology, kill or enslave them.
- plcancel 11y ago
  The question posed was: "Can Suicide Bombing of Civilian Targets to Defend Islam be Justified?" (p. 53) Not a lot of wiggle room in that one. Thought perhaps the question might've been a bit more vague or general. However, it states specifically "civilians". Really...? ...42%? That's astonishing.
- j-conn 11y ago
  Would love to hear from the people down-voting. Is this data flawed / limited / not consistent with personal experience? I've heard people like Bill Maher cite this survey before. I'm sure there are different and interesting perspectives in the HN community-- please don't just reflexively downvote or avoid addressing this because it's uncomfortable.
- deciplex 11y ago
  This seems to be mainly a problem in Europe (and France in particular) as opposed to Islam in general. Even the study you've linked indicates that. Here is an article that explores a bit more the attitudes among American Muslims in particular. I don't have time to find the actual study, sorry: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascinating-look-at-the-political-views-of-muslim-americans/242975/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascin...
- johncolanduoni 11y ago
  For clarity, the categories from the survey are often/sometimes/rarely/never justified, with respective percentages of 6%, 10%, 19%, and 64% for all Muslims.
asadlionpk 11y ago
Being a muslim in a foreign country, I confirm. I don't know why but I feel scared/guilty when something like this happens. It's sad they have to use Islam's name to do this when my interpretation (of Islam) is exactly the opposite.
- peu4000 11y ago
  I, and I hope most others, lay blame at the feet of those who committed the act. I(a nobody) think I've been too quiet about defending our Muslim friends from being lumped in with bad people just because you share a religion. I don't know many Muslims and it's just too easy to let bigoted remarks go, but this attack feels like it could really bring out the worst in reactionary people. So stay safe and know at least one person has your back.
neuro_imager 11y ago
There's no question that the ideology of islam - or at least the ideology of several of its sects is a critical element in these attacks. Claiming otherwise is leftist PC nonsense. Sure there are many good muslims, most of whom you will find adhere to a secular ideology and western value system despite labelling themselves "muslim".
- return0 11y ago
  I think the focus in Islam itself is misleading. The Ottoman empire was muslim for hundreds of years yet christians and muslims did not fight against each other on religious grounds, and there was definitely no such fringe fanaticism. My grandmother remembered that people were sad when muslims had to leave the balkans due to national population exchanges back in the beginning of the last century. The terrorists you see today would become terrorists in the name of Christ just as well. Having said that, it's true that certain groups can be identified as "bad" and labeled so, and it seems that the one unifying characteristic is their islamic faith, although there are other national characteristics as well. Saying that we need to defend against "Islam" would be too broad a target, and the terrorists use that to their advantage. In Europe, we need to stop treating muslim populations as minorities, start treating them as european citizens, and demand that their religious leaders contribute to public safety. They need to actively engage in the expulsion of radicalized people from their religious communities and preach against the sentiment that justifies the attacks. Laisez-faire comes at a price to everyone, and muslims are not excluded from it.The terrorists have been bastardizing the meaning of Islam for 4-5 decades now. Maybe Islam should be having it's own velvet revolution.
  - kansface 11y ago
    My grandmother remembered those times differently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
  - neuro_imager 11y ago
    I'm sorry but I disagree with most of your comment (with the exception that we concur that the muslim population needs to take responsibility for their own communities - through their religious leaders being more vocal about "fanatic" elements). You seam to have a very rosy picture of the Ottoman empire.Without going into too much detail, most historians would agree that it was an aggressive expansionist empire with intolerance to non-islamic sects. "The terrorists you see today would become terrorists in the name of Christ just as well." - This is patently absurd, at least in this century, and a horrendously apologist argument. I would recommend reading several key articles illustrating the Saudi Wahabi link to ISIS and how its clear that this is an intrinsically Islamist problem: eg. http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabia-exported-main-source-global-terrorism http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-... Also, I'd advise reading Sam Harris's "Sleepwalking Toward Armageddon" http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armageddon http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armag...
Eupolemos 11y ago
And this is exactly what the terrorists aim for. If the western world starts feeling it is at war with Islam, Muslims will unite under those terrorist's banner and we're in for a very long, shitty haul. The worse we treat Muslims in our own countries, the easier simple individuals will be to turn to the terrorist course. If we attack a Muslim country, hordes of Muslims will travel there to fight for the Prophet. These attacks are all desperate attempts at starting an avalanche. Don't let them play you, talk with your friends, stay calm.

jacquesm 11y ago

Unfortunately in the eyes of many that reputation could not get much lower. What is a bigger problem is that it will further divide nations regardless of reputation of a religion it will affect any and all who are perceived as either Islamic, Arabic, African, dark skinned or any combination of the above in a negative and measurable way.

imaginenore 11y ago

Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60 http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

dang 11y ago
> Islam soils the reputation of islam. No slurs, please. We've already banned one account for turning this thread into a religious flamewar. Comments here need to stay factual.
- imaginenore 11y ago
  I did stay factual, I even provided a link. If you're going to restrict speech, restrict all mentions of religion, not just the ones that contradict your preconceived notion.
  - deciplex 11y ago
    Indeed. The moderation in this thread has been supremely disappointing. Your post contained no slurs, only an interpretation of data along with a link.
    - davesque 11y ago
      No. What dang quoted was a slur. Definition from http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/slur http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...: "An insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation" Saying that "Islam soils the reputation of islam" is a slur by any reasonable interpretation. The link provided some information but the first sentence did nothing to that effect and was simply inflammatory.
      - deciplex 11y ago
        This wasn't a mere insinuation, this was a claim made along with some study linked in support of the claim. And since the topic at hand is precisely Islam's reputation in the first place, it seems we can't have any conversation about Islam's reputation for violence (deserved or not), and what to do about it, at all. If your goal is to integrate Muslims living in Western nations into Western society, what is going on here is not helping to achieve it.
        davesque 11y ago
        The OP began by saying "Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism." Without further proof, that statement is an allegation at best and a slur at worst (especially if the following proof doesn't hold up). He then went on to say "42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall)." So why wasn't his original statement "Islam in France among 42% of Muslims less than 30 years of age (that were prompted to answer a survey question in an environment we know nothing about) soils the reputation of Islam?" So, he began by making a broad generalization about Islam as a whole and then quoted a statistical observation about a small percentage of Muslims. Sorry, but 2 + 2 = 4. Broad generalization + no proof = slur.
e12e 11y ago
I'm sure that if you did a survey of disenfranchised white youth in the US, you'd find a lot of people volunteering to enlist, and you could probably get some sympathy for the need to "go kill ISIS" or some other media-oriented headline. France has many issues, I doubt any of them are truly deeply connected to Islam. But it is of course easier to point at religion as the source of civil unrest, rather than at a failing economy, systematic discrimination and a growing divide between rich and poor.
- imaginenore 11y ago
  ISIS is a jihadist terrorist organization, and that's recognized by most governments, many Islamic ones even. It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean. What happened today was not "civil unrest".
  - aianus 11y ago
    > It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean. That's all well and good to say when you know enlisting in the US military in conventional warfare against ISIS has a good chance of succeeding. But what if the US was the small poor state and ISIS was the world's largest economy whose military targets were too well-defended to attack? I'm sure you'd find lots of recruits in Texas for "guerilla special units behind enemy lines". Especially if cruise missiles and drone strikes were hitting US soil every other day.
    - m_mueller 11y ago
      I find this relativism disconcerting. Please explain how targeting innocent civilians for their ethnicity or beliefs is equal to military vs. military operations. Most of the world is shades of grey but one has to recognize when an ideology is clearly a danger to human society and needs to be fought against. Whether and how violent the means need to be is up for discussion, I just can't understand why people would downplay what ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban and similar groups are doing. Just because the term "Freedom Fighters" has long been intemixed with Terrorism doesn't mean that it applies here. IMO most of these groups don't want to 'liberate' people, instead they want to either bind them to their religious ideology, kill or enslave them.
plcancel 11y ago
The question posed was: "Can Suicide Bombing of Civilian Targets to Defend Islam be Justified?" (p. 53) Not a lot of wiggle room in that one. Thought perhaps the question might've been a bit more vague or general. However, it states specifically "civilians". Really...? ...42%? That's astonishing.
j-conn 11y ago
Would love to hear from the people down-voting. Is this data flawed / limited / not consistent with personal experience? I've heard people like Bill Maher cite this survey before. I'm sure there are different and interesting perspectives in the HN community-- please don't just reflexively downvote or avoid addressing this because it's uncomfortable.
deciplex 11y ago
This seems to be mainly a problem in Europe (and France in particular) as opposed to Islam in general. Even the study you've linked indicates that. Here is an article that explores a bit more the attitudes among American Muslims in particular. I don't have time to find the actual study, sorry: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascinating-look-at-the-political-views-of-muslim-americans/242975/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascin...
johncolanduoni 11y ago
For clarity, the categories from the survey are often/sometimes/rarely/never justified, with respective percentages of 6%, 10%, 19%, and 64% for all Muslims.

asadlionpk 11y ago

Being a muslim in a foreign country, I confirm. I don't know why but I feel scared/guilty when something like this happens. It's sad they have to use Islam's name to do this when my interpretation (of Islam) is exactly the opposite.

peu4000 11y ago
I, and I hope most others, lay blame at the feet of those who committed the act. I(a nobody) think I've been too quiet about defending our Muslim friends from being lumped in with bad people just because you share a religion. I don't know many Muslims and it's just too easy to let bigoted remarks go, but this attack feels like it could really bring out the worst in reactionary people. So stay safe and know at least one person has your back.

neuro_imager 11y ago

There's no question that the ideology of islam - or at least the ideology of several of its sects is a critical element in these attacks. Claiming otherwise is leftist PC nonsense. Sure there are many good muslims, most of whom you will find adhere to a secular ideology and western value system despite labelling themselves "muslim".

return0 11y ago
I think the focus in Islam itself is misleading. The Ottoman empire was muslim for hundreds of years yet christians and muslims did not fight against each other on religious grounds, and there was definitely no such fringe fanaticism. My grandmother remembered that people were sad when muslims had to leave the balkans due to national population exchanges back in the beginning of the last century. The terrorists you see today would become terrorists in the name of Christ just as well. Having said that, it's true that certain groups can be identified as "bad" and labeled so, and it seems that the one unifying characteristic is their islamic faith, although there are other national characteristics as well. Saying that we need to defend against "Islam" would be too broad a target, and the terrorists use that to their advantage. In Europe, we need to stop treating muslim populations as minorities, start treating them as european citizens, and demand that their religious leaders contribute to public safety. They need to actively engage in the expulsion of radicalized people from their religious communities and preach against the sentiment that justifies the attacks. Laisez-faire comes at a price to everyone, and muslims are not excluded from it.The terrorists have been bastardizing the meaning of Islam for 4-5 decades now. Maybe Islam should be having it's own velvet revolution.
- kansface 11y ago
  My grandmother remembered those times differently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
- neuro_imager 11y ago
  I'm sorry but I disagree with most of your comment (with the exception that we concur that the muslim population needs to take responsibility for their own communities - through their religious leaders being more vocal about "fanatic" elements). You seam to have a very rosy picture of the Ottoman empire.Without going into too much detail, most historians would agree that it was an aggressive expansionist empire with intolerance to non-islamic sects. "The terrorists you see today would become terrorists in the name of Christ just as well." - This is patently absurd, at least in this century, and a horrendously apologist argument. I would recommend reading several key articles illustrating the Saudi Wahabi link to ISIS and how its clear that this is an intrinsically Islamist problem: eg. http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabia-exported-main-source-global-terrorism http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-... Also, I'd advise reading Sam Harris's "Sleepwalking Toward Armageddon" http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armageddon http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armag...

Eupolemos 11y ago

And this is exactly what the terrorists aim for. If the western world starts feeling it is at war with Islam, Muslims will unite under those terrorist's banner and we're in for a very long, shitty haul. The worse we treat Muslims in our own countries, the easier simple individuals will be to turn to the terrorist course. If we attack a Muslim country, hordes of Muslims will travel there to fight for the Prophet. These attacks are all desperate attempts at starting an avalanche. Don't let them play you, talk with your friends, stay calm.