7 ms·

Why we need to create careers for research software engineers

135 points by rkda 11y ago

Animats 11y ago
They mean "programmers who support research projects in other fields", like lab techs. Not people doing research in software.
mrdrozdov 11y ago
So universities should hire Software Engineering professionals and have them build tools for the research ecosystem? They can definitely afford it.
jack9 11y ago
I thought I was going to read about the real problem with the lack of research into software development. Research software engineers is a secondary issue.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf is about lack of computer systems research, and it touches on the problem you mention.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
summary: if you're a researcher and spend all your time writing software rather than publishing your research career suffers. I see three solutions: 1) Have the universities band to together to fund a software source for research. Something that would hire software developers who would provide tools for researchers who were with member universities. Pay a market salary for those programmers and release everything under a sharing friendly license, both for recognition and to aid in reproducing results in other labs. 2) Mandate a single source for all software acquisition through some software consulting company and add riders to all research grants that provide some number of "software supplies" for the team. 3) Get rid of the whole publish or perish paradigm and restructure scientific research so that everyone is accorded rank based on the novelty and repeatability of the research done in the lab.
rifung 11y ago
While I do find it unfortunate that software developers in research are underappreciated, I wonder if making an official title for this will really solve the problem. One issue is that if all you are doing is writing code, you could do the same thing in industry, and there's really no way academia is going to match that kind of salary. I don't really see the issue with how it appears to work right now though? My understanding is currently if your research requires you to program, then you program it yourself, or collaborate with others. Thus, being a good coder actually helps some people publish more. At least this is what I saw with people in the more practical research topics like systems research, but even in theoretical research. On the other hand, I suppose this is a problem for people who are not in CS. However, I imagine these people just hire programmers to do the work in the same way they might hire lab assistants. In any case, I'm not really convinced just putting a new title or career track will help.. how is this career track any different from just a normal software development track? It seems more like the real issue is that you are hiring a postdoc when what you really want is just a software developer, but perhaps they only want to pay post doc salaries?
- emcq 11y ago
  I actually have "research software engineer" on my resume and you're right, it doesn't do much. In fact I don't think this is uncommon, at least in the US. Myself and former colleagues indeed have no trouble working in industry positions. However one thing to note is that many cases, research programming has specialized requirements that are rare for most industry positions and domain scientists. For example, numerical analysis to ensure stability of models, distributed computing to scale massive simulations or analytics, algorthims and visualizations to explore datasets, NLP, ML, etc. Some of these skills domain scientists develop but for the most part these are likely going to require someone with a CS background.
- Someone 11y ago
  "However, I imagine these people just hire programmers to do the work in the same way they might hire lab assistants." From what I know (decades ago, and from a very low-N and non-representative (biology, psychology) sample), "in the same way" = not. The typical lab assistants are students or Ph.D. students; the researchers cannot do software engineering, so they write programs. Things likely are different in medicine and hard physics. When people are used to spending huge sums on hardware, they tend to accept that spending money on a professional is worth it. Similarly, in the humanities, people probably are more likely to realize/accept that paying a professional is worth it. And the career track should be different from a normal one in the sense that one has more control over what one does, how one does it and when one does it, has higher job security, and works on things that are more fun and/or more fulfilling, all at the expense of lower financial reward.
pepijndevos 11y ago
I started studying electrical engineering after being a self-taught software developer for a few years. I'm basically writing all the software for the project groups I'm in, and I love it. I like this kind of code much better than your web app. (Though Matlab is a bitch, no namespaces, array indexes start from 1, etc.) I hope that I can make a living researching and building electronics and software.
- kctess5 11y ago
  I've worked both in industry and at a research institution (albeit not very long) and I've learned a bit of a love hate relationship with matlab. It's really awesome for prototyping complex math-based algorithms as an intermediate step before writing a battle-ready implementation. There's a ton of libraries so you can think in terms of high level concepts, and the matrix math is very natural, as is Gpu integration which is a huge plus. Once it's in code, you can iterate quickly relying on libraries, and even create a gui very quickly. When you settle on a final implementation, you can do a 1:1 port to the optimal runtime to make the code more modular, extensible, and fast. Once you get used to the indexing and quirks, it's a prototyping dream. In a day I can do what would take weeks to implement in C++ or even Python, and I can decide if the algorithm is good enough to warrant a full port. Once I make that call, it's trivial to decide which parts of the algorithm I should work on optimizing for speed during the port because you can analyze perf of each step. Granted, I do a lot of image processing which is sort of an ideal matlab use case. I totally agree though, writing software to solve real world problems is much more riveting than writing endless web apps (I've done both.)
chaosphere2112 11y ago
This is pretty much my job. I develop climate analysis software at a DOE national lab. We have a pretty reasonable career ladder for the "research software engineer". A quick sample: Me: Recent graduate (2012), early career. All dev, all the time. Lead Dev: ~15-20 years experience, minor project management tasks, mostly just dev work. Gets author credit on scientists' papers every once in a while for his help in generating visualizations. Principal Investigator: 30-40 years experience, created the software package that we develop in the early 90s, almost entirely project management. Our organization doesn't expect publications from us (though they're a perk at raise time). There are a few conferences that we present at annually, some posters to make, but for the most part, I just write software that helps scientists do their jobs better. I'm just down the hall from some of the leading minds in climate science, and it's really a great environment. Of course, our lab varies wildly internally; any different project could have a drastically different experience, and different departments would have very different expectations.
- jwoah12 11y ago
  There are no promotions between entry-level and lead dev? I don't know that I'd call it a reasonable career ladder if the second rung is 15 years away.
  - dagw 11y ago
    Are regular promotions that important? As long as I get keep getting to do interesting work and keep getting reasonable raises I'm quite happy with my job title not changing more than once a decade.
    - chaosphere2112 11y ago
      Pretty much this, yeah. We do have some intermediate tiers, but they don't really effect your work duties.
    - jwoah12 11y ago
      I suppose not. I'm just used to compensation and responsibilities being tied closely to promotions. There just needs to be some way that the organization regularly recognizes people for doing a good job, so however that materializes is fine.
ska 11y ago
There is a chicken and egg problem here, also. Many labs don't have any really competent software people in place, which means they don't have effective mentoring and training of new people as they join, which means they don't have a solid mechanism for generating competence in this area (unlike the focus area of their research). A lot of research code is writing in fits and starts by a revolving door of post docs and graduate students, who don't understand software development, supervised by people who also don't understand software development. The results are really hit and miss, dependent mostly on individuals desire to learn these things outside of their area, or on the luck of hiring the right student or post doc who already happens to know quite a bit (but this probably isn't why you hired them). Some labs know they have this problem but have a structural issue with funding - they can't possibly come up with a competitive salary. Others don't even realize it's a problem. You end up with a lot of people coming out of these labs with deep domain knowledge but only rudimentary software engineering skill. From an industry point of view it becomes hard to hire many of them because they will need the same amount of supervision and mentoring as an entry level programmer for the first year or two, but if you're running an R&D group you often don't have enough mentors to go around... so there is a shortage of people with 3-5 years of industry experience and an oversupply of those with 0.
p4wnc6 11y ago
I've interviewed for a number of these types of jobs in the last year or so. The pay is just too poor to even think about it. One large university with a super well-funded and growing medical school in a huge mega-city was looking to hire someone with 5+ years of deep experience in both Python and C/C++, as well as some familiarity or past education in statistics and machine learning, to be the software development lead for a set of research groups. They weren't willing to go above $90k/year. In another case, I interviewed with a school of public health at an Ivy university. It was in a medium-to-large city on the east coast, where the cost of living was certainly higher than national average, but not insanely high. Even still, they were looking to pay in the range of $75k for someone with significant years of experience in the scientific Python stack. Not only does this fail to compare even with start-ups that aren't located in major tech hubs, but also when compared against salaries offered by established companies in the same cities, it's almost a 2x pay jump (more in some cases), for the same skill set. To boot, these lab/university environments tend to have many of the same political issues that any other organization has. Sometimes they are slightly more generous with vacation time and work/life balance, but not always. But you are generally also working with a lot of research staff who see "programming" as a nuisance that gets in the way of their research, rather than seeing programming as the medium of expression of their research. So when you lobby for using good tools, good workflow practices, and try to teach people how to write reasonable software, you usually get a lot of pushback that people just don't like doing it that way, and since you're the super low-status programmer, your opinion generally doesn't count for much, even if you can back it up with more substance. You also carry some employment risk when projects are funded by grants. Even large, well-established, multi-year grants can be suddenly changed or reduced when there is significant political change in the funding organizations. And a lot of the universities, at least, are unwilling to hire these kinds of expensive programmers as permanent university employees. You'd probably have a much better career if you instead went to work as a programming-literate business analyst in some part of the university's fundraising / business departments. In the end, these places can only afford developers with very little experience, or people who don't understand the cost of living differential in the city they are moving to, or I guess are independently wealthy and just prefer to be a low-status programmer in one of these labs. Edit: Another thing that struck me -- in a lot of these university research situations, the programming talent that they need to hire is genuinely just harder to find / harder to replace than even the research talent you would be working for. Since there's a huge surplus of Ph.D. and post-doc labor, you could staff the domain expert research side of things much more easily than the programmer side -- especially if you need someone who is truly full-stack to do things ranging from migrating legacy research data to a cloud platform all the way up to designing fancy UI demos with d3. If you look at another set of industries where the lower-level contributors are much harder to employ than the manager -- professional team sports -- you see that the market dictates that the lower level experts (the actual players on a sports team) almost always command more salary than the coach. There can be exceptions, like Phil Jackson (but even he didn't earn more than his best players) and there will be backup players who earn less. But the general idea seems to hold true. This means that a lot of these scientific labs and universities will eventually have to face the market reality that the domain expert labor is just not worth as much as the software design labor. Or else they can just keep on compromising on the quality of the software and try to hold on to a worldview where scraping by with bottom-of-the-barrel software development is good enough. It might work for them for a while longer, but I doubt it will work for too long.
magicbuzz 11y ago
Working in research as a software engineer can be very frustrating. I wrote the majority of the analysis code for one of the chapters of the IPCC 5th Assessment and yet was told my name couldn't be put anywhere as I wasn't a 'scientist'. I also consistently see people who have never written much code put in charge of projects where the majority of the work/research is writing software. These projects end up with no code repository use, poor quality control, zero testing, limited OO use - all the things that a professional would take for granted. Worse, they don't perceive the difference between a postdoc who can write code and a professional developer with years of experience. So they hire the cheaper option and end up with the usual 'ball of mud'.
- tensor 11y ago
  Some would argue that no OO use is a good thing (assuming you are referring to object oriented programming). Expanding on this, writing research code is quite a bit different than writing production code. In particular, requirements can change quickly and drastically. This means that very open designs where you don't hide data (e.g. as is common in OO programming) are often the best designs.
  - wtf23737 11y ago
    just no.
    - camkego 11y ago
      This.
  - pathelectronica 11y ago
    > requirements can change quickly and drastically the implication that this threat is not present for production code is completely ridiculous.
  - mbreese 11y ago
    Research code is production code and should be treated as such. It doesn't matter if requirements change quickly, you still need to treat it like it's production code... you document, test, and deploy it. And you should include the ability to adapt the code to flexible requirements in your initial design. Just because you may only use the program once doesn't mean that you can neglect good software engineering practices. I run into bad code all of the time (some of it mine!) in our research, and it's very frustrating.
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jkot 11y ago
I think I have this sort of career. I take theoretical paper and turn it into practical implementation. I make money on consulting. Lot of independence and freedom. I dont think it is possible to do such thing in academia. Software guys I know in astronomy are underfunded and on short contracts. Most guys will leave for commercial company before starting a family.
- chubot 11y ago
  Can you give some details on what you do? I think it's pretty interesting (and rare) that you can make consulting money by taking a paper and turning it into an implementation. What field are you in, who do you work with, etc.? Are you independent? I'm doing the same sort of thing at Google. I've been a software engineer for 13 years or so and I switched over to a research group in 2014. There is definitely a culture difference, even though Google is one of the places which has the least "pure" research. All research teams have software engineers pretty much, and they mostly work with the same codebase that engineers do.
  - jkot 11y ago
    I work on database software. Right now I am working on queues. I am independent. It started as hobby opensource project, people asked me for help and I started charging them. Now it will be 3 years since I started working full time on this.
stared 11y ago
I think the problem is not the lack of "career path" or a title, but that the is little credit given to code. (To the point, that usually no public code is being shared, even if the publication bases on it!) Why? - sharing code may mean risk of being scooped (instead of milking the same code for years), - cleaning up code takes time, which can be used for writing another publications. In short, as long as publications (i.e. papers accepted to prestigious journals or conferences) are the only credit in academia, quality programming is lost. See my longer answer: http://academia.stackexchange.com/a/23238/49 http://academia.stackexchange.com/a/23238/49
saintgimp 11y ago
Dr. Pamela Gay wrote an article about the difficult state of non-tenure jobs in research and academia: http://www.starstryder.com/2015/11/12/dreaming-of-success-in-an-age-of-diminished-possibility/ http://www.starstryder.com/2015/11/12/dreaming-of-success-in... It's the same problem for software devs, postdocs, research assistants, adjunct professors - basically everyone except tenured university professors. We're not rewarding the right things.
- testrun 11y ago
  You are missing the career bureaucrats in universities. They have won. The vice chancellor at our university get more than AUD 600 000. Not bad for a small university in the middle of nowhere.
johansch 11y ago
I think this is done much better by e.g. Google already today. Academia has have their 50 year run with software research and the end result is quite disappointing. I have been peripherically involved with some recent academic research projects in Europe. The way I see it it's basically a way of keeping senior academics occupied and also diverting tax revenues to EU companies for no good reason. It's also a breeding ground for corruption - who chooses which companies get these pointless deals?
- thescriptkiddie 11y ago
  > Academia has have their 50 year run with software research and the end result is quite disappointing. You might want to tell that to the students and faculty at MIT, Berkeley and CMU who wrote the papers and much of the software powering your shiny new macbook and iphone.
  - johansch 11y ago
    Most of them were students, not academic researchers . The sole reason they were there was that it was the only way to get to computers. Since you mention MIT: I guess one example is how much effort Marvin Minsky's influence wasted in AI research and how he single-handedly killed more relevant research in that area for decades. What I was trying to get at though is what I have seen in the EU. Basically they don't even attempt to do basic research - most of the money goes to building product-like software systems, but without any realistic customer feedback loop (they already got the funding from oblivious tax payers thousands of miles away!). It's just wanking.
    - johansch 11y ago
      I also remember reading about Google's Larry and Sergei being reprimanded or scolded for being too occupied of what would be useful to users, rather than thinking about what might be make a good academic paper. Then they left Stanford.
    - xamuel 11y ago
      >without any realistic customer feedback loop This is so so true (I spent some time working as a post-doc in England). There are tables filled up this very moment with dignified scientists arguing about bikesheds in CRUD applications that wouldn't get three upvotes here on Hacker News. And remember: if you can't open it in MS Excel, that makes it "Big Data"! All joking aside though, what universities are doing with their postdocs is abusive and immoral and they're going to regret killing the golden goose when they've squandered all the prestige in these positions.
sien 11y ago
Ironically we're all discussing this on a platform created by a research software engineer 25 years ago.
- johansch 11y ago
  Please expand?
  - shanemhansen 11y ago
    I assume this is a reference to the fact the www was created at CERN. http was written to help scientists share documents.
    - johansch 11y ago
      Exactly, it wasn't a research project. An engineer needed to solve a problem. He happened to work in a research institution. Had he been a researcher the web wouldn't have happened.
tfgg 11y ago
As a recently departed academic, to vastly generalize, the only people who are research software engineers are perennial postdocs who don't realise yet that their career is a dead end and they're being significantly underpaid for their skill level. They also won't develop their skills adequately in such an environment, lacking good standards and mentorship. Academia needs to stop taking advantage and accept that it should pay double, so they can actually hire inwards from the private sector and gain good knowledge and skills, or somehow increase the prestige and power to be equivalent to other PI positions. I don't the latter is attainable [1], and I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to just be paid well rather than leave for data science/finance/building web apps. [1] E.g. If you're in physics, and not doing physics, you're fighting a losing battle to get respect and that lectureship/professorship. Everyone doing coding as their main job has to pretend to do research as well.
camkego 11y ago
Did they put software plus engineer in the same sentence. Uh oh!!
jeffdavis 11y ago
Would this new career involve some kind of real scientific credit?

135 points by rkda 11y ago

They mean "programmers who support research projects in other fields", like lab techs. Not people doing research in software.

mrdrozdov 11y ago

So universities should hire Software Engineering professionals and have them build tools for the research ecosystem? They can definitely afford it.

jack9 11y ago

I thought I was going to read about the real problem with the lack of research into software development. Research software engineers is a secondary issue.

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf is about lack of computer systems research, and it touches on the problem you mention.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

summary: if you're a researcher and spend all your time writing software rather than publishing your research career suffers. I see three solutions: 1) Have the universities band to together to fund a software source for research. Something that would hire software developers who would provide tools for researchers who were with member universities. Pay a market salary for those programmers and release everything under a sharing friendly license, both for recognition and to aid in reproducing results in other labs. 2) Mandate a single source for all software acquisition through some software consulting company and add riders to all research grants that provide some number of "software supplies" for the team. 3) Get rid of the whole publish or perish paradigm and restructure scientific research so that everyone is accorded rank based on the novelty and repeatability of the research done in the lab.

rifung 11y ago

While I do find it unfortunate that software developers in research are underappreciated, I wonder if making an official title for this will really solve the problem. One issue is that if all you are doing is writing code, you could do the same thing in industry, and there's really no way academia is going to match that kind of salary. I don't really see the issue with how it appears to work right now though? My understanding is currently if your research requires you to program, then you program it yourself, or collaborate with others. Thus, being a good coder actually helps some people publish more. At least this is what I saw with people in the more practical research topics like systems research, but even in theoretical research. On the other hand, I suppose this is a problem for people who are not in CS. However, I imagine these people just hire programmers to do the work in the same way they might hire lab assistants. In any case, I'm not really convinced just putting a new title or career track will help.. how is this career track any different from just a normal software development track? It seems more like the real issue is that you are hiring a postdoc when what you really want is just a software developer, but perhaps they only want to pay post doc salaries?

emcq 11y ago
I actually have "research software engineer" on my resume and you're right, it doesn't do much. In fact I don't think this is uncommon, at least in the US. Myself and former colleagues indeed have no trouble working in industry positions. However one thing to note is that many cases, research programming has specialized requirements that are rare for most industry positions and domain scientists. For example, numerical analysis to ensure stability of models, distributed computing to scale massive simulations or analytics, algorthims and visualizations to explore datasets, NLP, ML, etc. Some of these skills domain scientists develop but for the most part these are likely going to require someone with a CS background.
Someone 11y ago
"However, I imagine these people just hire programmers to do the work in the same way they might hire lab assistants." From what I know (decades ago, and from a very low-N and non-representative (biology, psychology) sample), "in the same way" = not. The typical lab assistants are students or Ph.D. students; the researchers cannot do software engineering, so they write programs. Things likely are different in medicine and hard physics. When people are used to spending huge sums on hardware, they tend to accept that spending money on a professional is worth it. Similarly, in the humanities, people probably are more likely to realize/accept that paying a professional is worth it. And the career track should be different from a normal one in the sense that one has more control over what one does, how one does it and when one does it, has higher job security, and works on things that are more fun and/or more fulfilling, all at the expense of lower financial reward.

pepijndevos 11y ago

I started studying electrical engineering after being a self-taught software developer for a few years. I'm basically writing all the software for the project groups I'm in, and I love it. I like this kind of code much better than your web app. (Though Matlab is a bitch, no namespaces, array indexes start from 1, etc.) I hope that I can make a living researching and building electronics and software.

kctess5 11y ago
I've worked both in industry and at a research institution (albeit not very long) and I've learned a bit of a love hate relationship with matlab. It's really awesome for prototyping complex math-based algorithms as an intermediate step before writing a battle-ready implementation. There's a ton of libraries so you can think in terms of high level concepts, and the matrix math is very natural, as is Gpu integration which is a huge plus. Once it's in code, you can iterate quickly relying on libraries, and even create a gui very quickly. When you settle on a final implementation, you can do a 1:1 port to the optimal runtime to make the code more modular, extensible, and fast. Once you get used to the indexing and quirks, it's a prototyping dream. In a day I can do what would take weeks to implement in C++ or even Python, and I can decide if the algorithm is good enough to warrant a full port. Once I make that call, it's trivial to decide which parts of the algorithm I should work on optimizing for speed during the port because you can analyze perf of each step. Granted, I do a lot of image processing which is sort of an ideal matlab use case. I totally agree though, writing software to solve real world problems is much more riveting than writing endless web apps (I've done both.)

chaosphere2112 11y ago

This is pretty much my job. I develop climate analysis software at a DOE national lab. We have a pretty reasonable career ladder for the "research software engineer". A quick sample: Me: Recent graduate (2012), early career. All dev, all the time. Lead Dev: ~15-20 years experience, minor project management tasks, mostly just dev work. Gets author credit on scientists' papers every once in a while for his help in generating visualizations. Principal Investigator: 30-40 years experience, created the software package that we develop in the early 90s, almost entirely project management. Our organization doesn't expect publications from us (though they're a perk at raise time). There are a few conferences that we present at annually, some posters to make, but for the most part, I just write software that helps scientists do their jobs better. I'm just down the hall from some of the leading minds in climate science, and it's really a great environment. Of course, our lab varies wildly internally; any different project could have a drastically different experience, and different departments would have very different expectations.

jwoah12 11y ago
There are no promotions between entry-level and lead dev? I don't know that I'd call it a reasonable career ladder if the second rung is 15 years away.
- dagw 11y ago
  Are regular promotions that important? As long as I get keep getting to do interesting work and keep getting reasonable raises I'm quite happy with my job title not changing more than once a decade.
  - chaosphere2112 11y ago
    Pretty much this, yeah. We do have some intermediate tiers, but they don't really effect your work duties.
  - jwoah12 11y ago
    I suppose not. I'm just used to compensation and responsibilities being tied closely to promotions. There just needs to be some way that the organization regularly recognizes people for doing a good job, so however that materializes is fine.

ska 11y ago

There is a chicken and egg problem here, also. Many labs don't have any really competent software people in place, which means they don't have effective mentoring and training of new people as they join, which means they don't have a solid mechanism for generating competence in this area (unlike the focus area of their research). A lot of research code is writing in fits and starts by a revolving door of post docs and graduate students, who don't understand software development, supervised by people who also don't understand software development. The results are really hit and miss, dependent mostly on individuals desire to learn these things outside of their area, or on the luck of hiring the right student or post doc who already happens to know quite a bit (but this probably isn't why you hired them). Some labs know they have this problem but have a structural issue with funding - they can't possibly come up with a competitive salary. Others don't even realize it's a problem. You end up with a lot of people coming out of these labs with deep domain knowledge but only rudimentary software engineering skill. From an industry point of view it becomes hard to hire many of them because they will need the same amount of supervision and mentoring as an entry level programmer for the first year or two, but if you're running an R&D group you often don't have enough mentors to go around... so there is a shortage of people with 3-5 years of industry experience and an oversupply of those with 0.

p4wnc6 11y ago

I've interviewed for a number of these types of jobs in the last year or so. The pay is just too poor to even think about it. One large university with a super well-funded and growing medical school in a huge mega-city was looking to hire someone with 5+ years of deep experience in both Python and C/C++, as well as some familiarity or past education in statistics and machine learning, to be the software development lead for a set of research groups. They weren't willing to go above $90k/year. In another case, I interviewed with a school of public health at an Ivy university. It was in a medium-to-large city on the east coast, where the cost of living was certainly higher than national average, but not insanely high. Even still, they were looking to pay in the range of $75k for someone with significant years of experience in the scientific Python stack. Not only does this fail to compare even with start-ups that aren't located in major tech hubs, but also when compared against salaries offered by established companies in the same cities, it's almost a 2x pay jump (more in some cases), for the same skill set. To boot, these lab/university environments tend to have many of the same political issues that any other organization has. Sometimes they are slightly more generous with vacation time and work/life balance, but not always. But you are generally also working with a lot of research staff who see "programming" as a nuisance that gets in the way of their research, rather than seeing programming as the medium of expression of their research. So when you lobby for using good tools, good workflow practices, and try to teach people how to write reasonable software, you usually get a lot of pushback that people just don't like doing it that way, and since you're the super low-status programmer, your opinion generally doesn't count for much, even if you can back it up with more substance. You also carry some employment risk when projects are funded by grants. Even large, well-established, multi-year grants can be suddenly changed or reduced when there is significant political change in the funding organizations. And a lot of the universities, at least, are unwilling to hire these kinds of expensive programmers as permanent university employees. You'd probably have a much better career if you instead went to work as a programming-literate business analyst in some part of the university's fundraising / business departments. In the end, these places can only afford developers with very little experience, or people who don't understand the cost of living differential in the city they are moving to, or I guess are independently wealthy and just prefer to be a low-status programmer in one of these labs. Edit: Another thing that struck me -- in a lot of these university research situations, the programming talent that they need to hire is genuinely just harder to find / harder to replace than even the research talent you would be working for. Since there's a huge surplus of Ph.D. and post-doc labor, you could staff the domain expert research side of things much more easily than the programmer side -- especially if you need someone who is truly full-stack to do things ranging from migrating legacy research data to a cloud platform all the way up to designing fancy UI demos with d3. If you look at another set of industries where the lower-level contributors are much harder to employ than the manager -- professional team sports -- you see that the market dictates that the lower level experts (the actual players on a sports team) almost always command more salary than the coach. There can be exceptions, like Phil Jackson (but even he didn't earn more than his best players) and there will be backup players who earn less. But the general idea seems to hold true. This means that a lot of these scientific labs and universities will eventually have to face the market reality that the domain expert labor is just not worth as much as the software design labor. Or else they can just keep on compromising on the quality of the software and try to hold on to a worldview where scraping by with bottom-of-the-barrel software development is good enough. It might work for them for a while longer, but I doubt it will work for too long.

magicbuzz 11y ago

Working in research as a software engineer can be very frustrating. I wrote the majority of the analysis code for one of the chapters of the IPCC 5th Assessment and yet was told my name couldn't be put anywhere as I wasn't a 'scientist'. I also consistently see people who have never written much code put in charge of projects where the majority of the work/research is writing software. These projects end up with no code repository use, poor quality control, zero testing, limited OO use - all the things that a professional would take for granted. Worse, they don't perceive the difference between a postdoc who can write code and a professional developer with years of experience. So they hire the cheaper option and end up with the usual 'ball of mud'.

tensor 11y ago
Some would argue that no OO use is a good thing (assuming you are referring to object oriented programming). Expanding on this, writing research code is quite a bit different than writing production code. In particular, requirements can change quickly and drastically. This means that very open designs where you don't hide data (e.g. as is common in OO programming) are often the best designs.
- wtf23737 11y ago
  just no.
  - camkego 11y ago
    This.
- pathelectronica 11y ago
  > requirements can change quickly and drastically the implication that this threat is not present for production code is completely ridiculous.
- mbreese 11y ago
  Research code is production code and should be treated as such. It doesn't matter if requirements change quickly, you still need to treat it like it's production code... you document, test, and deploy it. And you should include the ability to adapt the code to flexible requirements in your initial design. Just because you may only use the program once doesn't mean that you can neglect good software engineering practices. I run into bad code all of the time (some of it mine!) in our research, and it's very frustrating.

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jkot 11y ago

I think I have this sort of career. I take theoretical paper and turn it into practical implementation. I make money on consulting. Lot of independence and freedom. I dont think it is possible to do such thing in academia. Software guys I know in astronomy are underfunded and on short contracts. Most guys will leave for commercial company before starting a family.

chubot 11y ago
Can you give some details on what you do? I think it's pretty interesting (and rare) that you can make consulting money by taking a paper and turning it into an implementation. What field are you in, who do you work with, etc.? Are you independent? I'm doing the same sort of thing at Google. I've been a software engineer for 13 years or so and I switched over to a research group in 2014. There is definitely a culture difference, even though Google is one of the places which has the least "pure" research. All research teams have software engineers pretty much, and they mostly work with the same codebase that engineers do.
- jkot 11y ago
  I work on database software. Right now I am working on queues. I am independent. It started as hobby opensource project, people asked me for help and I started charging them. Now it will be 3 years since I started working full time on this.

stared 11y ago

I think the problem is not the lack of "career path" or a title, but that the is little credit given to code. (To the point, that usually no public code is being shared, even if the publication bases on it!) Why? - sharing code may mean risk of being scooped (instead of milking the same code for years), - cleaning up code takes time, which can be used for writing another publications. In short, as long as publications (i.e. papers accepted to prestigious journals or conferences) are the only credit in academia, quality programming is lost. See my longer answer: http://academia.stackexchange.com/a/23238/49 http://academia.stackexchange.com/a/23238/49

saintgimp 11y ago

Dr. Pamela Gay wrote an article about the difficult state of non-tenure jobs in research and academia: http://www.starstryder.com/2015/11/12/dreaming-of-success-in-an-age-of-diminished-possibility/ http://www.starstryder.com/2015/11/12/dreaming-of-success-in... It's the same problem for software devs, postdocs, research assistants, adjunct professors - basically everyone except tenured university professors. We're not rewarding the right things.

testrun 11y ago
You are missing the career bureaucrats in universities. They have won. The vice chancellor at our university get more than AUD 600 000. Not bad for a small university in the middle of nowhere.

johansch 11y ago

I think this is done much better by e.g. Google already today. Academia has have their 50 year run with software research and the end result is quite disappointing. I have been peripherically involved with some recent academic research projects in Europe. The way I see it it's basically a way of keeping senior academics occupied and also diverting tax revenues to EU companies for no good reason. It's also a breeding ground for corruption - who chooses which companies get these pointless deals?

thescriptkiddie 11y ago
> Academia has have their 50 year run with software research and the end result is quite disappointing. You might want to tell that to the students and faculty at MIT, Berkeley and CMU who wrote the papers and much of the software powering your shiny new macbook and iphone.
- johansch 11y ago
  Most of them were students, not academic researchers . The sole reason they were there was that it was the only way to get to computers. Since you mention MIT: I guess one example is how much effort Marvin Minsky's influence wasted in AI research and how he single-handedly killed more relevant research in that area for decades. What I was trying to get at though is what I have seen in the EU. Basically they don't even attempt to do basic research - most of the money goes to building product-like software systems, but without any realistic customer feedback loop (they already got the funding from oblivious tax payers thousands of miles away!). It's just wanking.
  - johansch 11y ago
    I also remember reading about Google's Larry and Sergei being reprimanded or scolded for being too occupied of what would be useful to users, rather than thinking about what might be make a good academic paper. Then they left Stanford.
  - xamuel 11y ago
    >without any realistic customer feedback loop This is so so true (I spent some time working as a post-doc in England). There are tables filled up this very moment with dignified scientists arguing about bikesheds in CRUD applications that wouldn't get three upvotes here on Hacker News. And remember: if you can't open it in MS Excel, that makes it "Big Data"! All joking aside though, what universities are doing with their postdocs is abusive and immoral and they're going to regret killing the golden goose when they've squandered all the prestige in these positions.

sien 11y ago

Ironically we're all discussing this on a platform created by a research software engineer 25 years ago.

johansch 11y ago
Please expand?
- shanemhansen 11y ago
  I assume this is a reference to the fact the www was created at CERN. http was written to help scientists share documents.
  - johansch 11y ago
    Exactly, it wasn't a research project. An engineer needed to solve a problem. He happened to work in a research institution. Had he been a researcher the web wouldn't have happened.

tfgg 11y ago

As a recently departed academic, to vastly generalize, the only people who are research software engineers are perennial postdocs who don't realise yet that their career is a dead end and they're being significantly underpaid for their skill level. They also won't develop their skills adequately in such an environment, lacking good standards and mentorship. Academia needs to stop taking advantage and accept that it should pay double, so they can actually hire inwards from the private sector and gain good knowledge and skills, or somehow increase the prestige and power to be equivalent to other PI positions. I don't the latter is attainable [1], and I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to just be paid well rather than leave for data science/finance/building web apps. [1] E.g. If you're in physics, and not doing physics, you're fighting a losing battle to get respect and that lectureship/professorship. Everyone doing coding as their main job has to pretend to do research as well.

camkego 11y ago

Did they put software plus engineer in the same sentence. Uh oh!!

jeffdavis 11y ago

Would this new career involve some kind of real scientific credit?