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Experts Still Think UBeam’s Through-The-Air Charging Tech Is Unlikely

53 points by apsec112 11y ago

jonkiddy 11y ago
Reminds me of an old April Fools joke from ThinkGeek: https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That's a good one. I once lit a large fluorescent tube on the field generated by the antenna of a fairly powerful transmitter so that joke has some basis in physics. But you'd be hard pressed to run your vacuum cleaner that way :) I wonder how many people clicked 'order'.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Standing under high tension power lines will also light up a fluorescent tube!
IshKebab 11y ago
You don't need to be an expert to see that.
olalonde 11y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527061 (UBeam Declassifies Secrets to Try to Prove Wireless Power Is Possible)
v3ss0n 11y ago
How about tesla coils?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  How about them? Do you mean: Can an electric field of sufficient strength be used to charge cellphones?
  - kwhitefoot 11y ago
    Nokia had a project to charge mobile phones from ambient radio waves. But they had real engineers and scientists and even though it actually worked they reported how badly it worked. That is, the charging rate was so low that only the simplest mobile could be charged with it. I think they used a modified Nokia 100 or something similar. See this 'article' on Gizmodo: http://gizmodo.com/5285565/nokia-developing-wireless-accessory-free-ambient-charging http://gizmodo.com/5285565/nokia-developing-wireless-accesso...
- brokentone 11y ago
  A technology invented a long time ago that still isn't powering things like the inventor imagined it?
hanniabu 11y ago
"But even amid a tidal wave of publicity, the company has never publicly demonstrated a fully functioning prototype of its system. Nor has it ever produced an outside expert (who wasn’t an investor) who could attest to its ability" Sounds a lot like Theranos
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Not at all. Theranos' CEO's hair color is a different shade of blonde.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Well, either it works or it doesn't. What's there to talk about? It's not that they're doing rocket science. > "But even amid a tidal wave of publicity, the company has never publicly demonstrated a fully functioning prototype of its system." This is what I don't get - how the hell did they manage to get investors? I mean, ultrasound charging isn't magic, anyone who knows their stuff around EE should be able to throw together in a month a simple prototype of the tech to show to the investors. That is, a prototype that actually charges a phone, not this[0] which a) doesn't really charge the phone, and b) seems to be geared towards confusing people clueless about electricity. The fact that they didn't, after 4 years, produce anything suggests that they don't even have anyone on board who knows this stuff, so why are they getting money? Seriously, I think I'm gonna plug my IRC bot to TTS and go raise money for my AGI startup. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoHxyweJcZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoHxyweJcZI
- timrpeterson 11y ago
  Same problem in the biotech space. Lots of Software-minded investors != knowledge about biology/chemistry.
- ykl 11y ago
  Wait, why is she using a volt meter in that video? That's not useful information without knowing how many amps the system can push. I could probably get a volt meter to read 8 volts just from my hair after walking on carpet a bit, but that's certainly not going to charge my phone...
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    A static charge from the carpet would be a lot more than just 8 volts.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - cnvogel 11y ago
    More specifically, THIS voltmeter, which is a little bit "under-spec'ed", to say the least: Radio Shack (22-223) https://www.google.de/search?q=radio-shack+22-223&tbm=isch https://www.google.de/search?q=radio-shack+22-223&tbm=isch It's set to the 10V-AC range. I'd expect a VC backed company to invest in a little more elaborate measurement equipment than that. On the other hand, given a a good RMS meter operated in a frequency range where it's spec'ed to work and a known circuit impedance will give you a very good measurement of the power: P=Vrms²/R. And analog meters make for rather pretty demos, to be honest.
raverbashing 11y ago
Even if it works perfectly, from the other article they had, pointing that they can get ~ 3W at a device (and their transmitter is how much, around 300W as well) should be enough to cast a lot of doubts
arbitrage314 11y ago
Many weekends ago, I did a bunch of research on UBeam as I had an opportunity to invest. I hope I'm wrong (because wireless power would be cool), but after ~5-10 hours of research, I think wireless charging is unlikely to happen at any scale that would make UBeam a good investment. The amount of sound power required to charge even small electronic devices is enormous relative to the volume of the sounds we hear every day. Therefore, charging must occur at a pretty high frequency that we can't hear. Power efficiency begins to drop at these high frequencies, however, and sound at these frequencies might have other unintended consequences beyond human hearing. Power transmission efficiency is low pretty much regardless. The only way for UBeam to work, I think, is for people to think it's so cool to wirelessly charge things that they'll pay a lot of money to try it out. "Killing the power cord" on any sort of larger scale seems very unlikely.
- jasonlaramburu 11y ago
  Do they have a working prototype to show investors? It seems like anything would go a long way to silence critics at this point.
  - saintgimp 11y ago
    As far as I know, no one (not even the investors) has claimed to have seen a working prototype deliver significant power to a cell phone.
  - arbitrage314 11y ago
    I've seen, with my own eyes, working prototypes deliver amperage. That's pretty easy, though--just crank resistance down to 0, and you can get as many amps as you want.
brokentone 11y ago
These are the concerns that I have had since I first heard about this product. It's really simple physics... the falloff here is far too great. Come on, efficiency people!

53 points by apsec112 11y ago

Reminds me of an old April Fools joke from ThinkGeek: https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml

jacquesm 11y ago
That's a good one. I once lit a large fluorescent tube on the field generated by the antenna of a fairly powerful transmitter so that joke has some basis in physics. But you'd be hard pressed to run your vacuum cleaner that way :) I wonder how many people clicked 'order'.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Standing under high tension power lines will also light up a fluorescent tube!

IshKebab 11y ago

You don't need to be an expert to see that.

olalonde 11y ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527061 (UBeam Declassifies Secrets to Try to Prove Wireless Power Is Possible)

v3ss0n 11y ago

How about tesla coils?

jacquesm 11y ago
How about them? Do you mean: Can an electric field of sufficient strength be used to charge cellphones?
- kwhitefoot 11y ago
  Nokia had a project to charge mobile phones from ambient radio waves. But they had real engineers and scientists and even though it actually worked they reported how badly it worked. That is, the charging rate was so low that only the simplest mobile could be charged with it. I think they used a modified Nokia 100 or something similar. See this 'article' on Gizmodo: http://gizmodo.com/5285565/nokia-developing-wireless-accessory-free-ambient-charging http://gizmodo.com/5285565/nokia-developing-wireless-accesso...
brokentone 11y ago
A technology invented a long time ago that still isn't powering things like the inventor imagined it?

hanniabu 11y ago

"But even amid a tidal wave of publicity, the company has never publicly demonstrated a fully functioning prototype of its system. Nor has it ever produced an outside expert (who wasn’t an investor) who could attest to its ability" Sounds a lot like Theranos

venomsnake 11y ago
Not at all. Theranos' CEO's hair color is a different shade of blonde.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Well, either it works or it doesn't. What's there to talk about? It's not that they're doing rocket science. > "But even amid a tidal wave of publicity, the company has never publicly demonstrated a fully functioning prototype of its system." This is what I don't get - how the hell did they manage to get investors? I mean, ultrasound charging isn't magic, anyone who knows their stuff around EE should be able to throw together in a month a simple prototype of the tech to show to the investors. That is, a prototype that actually charges a phone, not this[0] which a) doesn't really charge the phone, and b) seems to be geared towards confusing people clueless about electricity. The fact that they didn't, after 4 years, produce anything suggests that they don't even have anyone on board who knows this stuff, so why are they getting money? Seriously, I think I'm gonna plug my IRC bot to TTS and go raise money for my AGI startup. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoHxyweJcZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoHxyweJcZI

timrpeterson 11y ago
Same problem in the biotech space. Lots of Software-minded investors != knowledge about biology/chemistry.
ykl 11y ago
Wait, why is she using a volt meter in that video? That's not useful information without knowing how many amps the system can push. I could probably get a volt meter to read 8 volts just from my hair after walking on carpet a bit, but that's certainly not going to charge my phone...
- jacquesm 11y ago
  A static charge from the carpet would be a lot more than just 8 volts.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- cnvogel 11y ago
  More specifically, THIS voltmeter, which is a little bit "under-spec'ed", to say the least: Radio Shack (22-223) https://www.google.de/search?q=radio-shack+22-223&tbm=isch https://www.google.de/search?q=radio-shack+22-223&tbm=isch It's set to the 10V-AC range. I'd expect a VC backed company to invest in a little more elaborate measurement equipment than that. On the other hand, given a a good RMS meter operated in a frequency range where it's spec'ed to work and a known circuit impedance will give you a very good measurement of the power: P=Vrms²/R. And analog meters make for rather pretty demos, to be honest.

raverbashing 11y ago

Even if it works perfectly, from the other article they had, pointing that they can get ~ 3W at a device (and their transmitter is how much, around 300W as well) should be enough to cast a lot of doubts

arbitrage314 11y ago

Many weekends ago, I did a bunch of research on UBeam as I had an opportunity to invest. I hope I'm wrong (because wireless power would be cool), but after ~5-10 hours of research, I think wireless charging is unlikely to happen at any scale that would make UBeam a good investment. The amount of sound power required to charge even small electronic devices is enormous relative to the volume of the sounds we hear every day. Therefore, charging must occur at a pretty high frequency that we can't hear. Power efficiency begins to drop at these high frequencies, however, and sound at these frequencies might have other unintended consequences beyond human hearing. Power transmission efficiency is low pretty much regardless. The only way for UBeam to work, I think, is for people to think it's so cool to wirelessly charge things that they'll pay a lot of money to try it out. "Killing the power cord" on any sort of larger scale seems very unlikely.

jasonlaramburu 11y ago
Do they have a working prototype to show investors? It seems like anything would go a long way to silence critics at this point.
- saintgimp 11y ago
  As far as I know, no one (not even the investors) has claimed to have seen a working prototype deliver significant power to a cell phone.
- arbitrage314 11y ago
  I've seen, with my own eyes, working prototypes deliver amperage. That's pretty easy, though--just crank resistance down to 0, and you can get as many amps as you want.

brokentone 11y ago

These are the concerns that I have had since I first heard about this product. It's really simple physics... the falloff here is far too great. Come on, efficiency people!