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I am from Somalia, and I have witnessed its decay right to its downfall, including the three days during which the government dispersed and the central bank thr

by mahmud 17y ago

I am from Somalia, and I have witnessed its decay right to its downfall, including the three days during which the government dispersed and the central bank threw out its stash of local currency in large garbage bins. Haiti will not die. For one, the suffering has been universally afflicted on all Haitians. This will strengthen their bond more than anything. Even if warlords and gangs form their own fiefdoms throughout the country, the humanitarian efforts, whenever they're ready a year or ten from now, can always tap into that shared Haitian identity, forged through an equally-endured hardship. An earthquake has no one to blame. Probably as many Somalis died as in Haiti (though not in one day) but we only have ourselves to blame, and each victim left a blood debt on his killer, which "must" be avenged (or it has been avenged, and now the victim's family are awaiting reprisals)

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
sailormoon 17y ago
An earthquake has no one to blame. The event itself does not, it's true. But there certainly is someone to blame for the shoddy construction standards and grievous lack of preparation. The government is entirely accountable for these things.
- cpr 17y ago
  There has been no government, in effect, to date, or worse, a corrupt government that was hurting its own people.
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    Well then that's the problem, isn't it? Look, my point is that something could have been done to prepare, and was not. Mahmud's talking like it's a no-fault act of god that's going to bring everyone together in a solidarity of fellow suffering - I'm saying, if I was Haitian and I'd somehow managed to survive this disaster, I'd compare to how other countries deal with this kind of thing and probably be more angry than ever. Update: I am evidently not stating my point very well. I'm not looking for a scapegoat. I'm trying to raise the possibility that these low expectations of government, this disregard for accountability, and this willingness to dismiss gross negligence and incompetence as somehow inherent in these "other" societies are a big part of the problem. "No-one to blame" indeed. Let me tell you what would happen to the mayor of a Japanese town if he let this happen and then just shrugged his shoulders and claimed there was "no-one to blame".
    - mahmud 17y ago
      I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset. Most construction is done by the local guys, up to the budget and specs of the owner. Really. Safety or aesthetics play very little role; you just build what you can afford and you're done with it. They have been hit with a 7.0 Richter earth quake; even the U.N. and government buildings were floored. Sometimes you just don't have anyone to blame and this is one of those times.
      - berntb 17y ago
        >>I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset. If you want to see something fun regarding this type of mindset, go check Sweden in Malthus' book on population (added in some later edition). Sweden is today the poster child of the cradle-to-grave nanny state. For good and bad. Malthus wrote about how self sufficient the Swedes were, compared to the rest of Europe, not blaming and demanding help from the state/nobility... :-)
      - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
        "you just build what you can afford and you're done with it" So if you can't afford a 2 story townhouse with earthquake and hurricane proofing you build a one-story that does have proofing and live in 2 rooms instead of 4 but have 2 rooms that are likely to stay standing. If you go for the 4 rooms then the consequences are yours to live with. There are provisos, if earthquakes and hurricanes haven't ever happened where you live for example. This sounds incredibly harsh and I, like most, would probably go with the group and build whatever anyone else was building assuming the worst wouldn't happen to me. God have mercy.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
    - ghshephard 17y ago
      I may be wrong, and would appreciate anybody from a third world country educating me, but I don't believe that building code standards are typically on top of the list of properties by which the citizens of those third world companies evaluate their government. Civil Order, Access to Water, Food, Jobs, lack of corruption are probably much, much higher on their minds than "Are proper seismic standards being enforced." I don't suspect the Haitians will be hating their government because earthquake resistance wasn't built into their building code.
- dunstad 17y ago
  The buildings were made to withstand hurricanes, not earthquakes. They chose the less frequent of two disasters to be exposed to.
  - seldo 17y ago
    Coming from Trinidad and Tobago, where we get both, I assure you it's possible to build in a way to withstand both.
    - gojomo 17y ago
      GDP per capita (World Bank, 2008): $24,742 Trinidad and Tobago (28th) $1,177 Haiti (146th) What's possible in a rich country isn't much of an example of what's possible in a dirt poor country -- the poorest in the western hemisphere. (What other expenditures should Haitians have forgone to afford in-advance disaster preparations and rich-country building standards, for an earthquake that might never come?) Poverty is the ultimate killer here. An event like the earthquake just sets the time-of-death. Blame the poverty, and the policies which perpetuate it, sure. Blaming the Haitian government for not buying insurance -- building standards and disaster preparedness -- they couldn't have afforded anyway is silly.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Agreed. As an example of the abject poverty there compared to even their closest neighbour. Last night my parents recounted their trip (about 10 years ago) to the Dominican Republic. A lot of Haitian labour work in the DR in the fields etc (usual "immigrant labour" stuff you get everywhere). The average wage was about $1 a day. To put it in perspective in the DR (admittedly in the tourist resorts) you bought Coke for $1 :) But $1 didn't buy you a lot more even in the non-tourist regions. And Haitians worked there, apparently, because the wages were good! Calling it a mess is an understatement I think. (I also showed my Dad this link and he said [rough quote] "it was pretty much a dying country when we went there")
      - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
        >Poverty is the ultimate killer here. But what is the cause of the poverty. Is it overpopulated for the resources available? Is the endemic use of heroin marring the countries ability to govern itself? Is it being exploited by outsiders who are creaming off the benefit of the natural resources for themselves? ...
- abalashov 17y ago
  Easy to say if you're coming from the vantage point of someone living in a rich country.
  - theycallmemorty 17y ago
    How many deaths have you heard about in the Dominican Republic? Its not exactly Luxembourg over there but they survived.
    - Cald 17y ago
      The earthquake epicenter was in Haiti. It wasn't felt as strongly in the Dom. Rep. About 6 years ago, an earthquake centered in the northern part of the island destroyed the nearby towns.
adrianwaj 17y ago
This will strengthen their bond more than anything The end of hate, not Haiti.
joubert 17y ago
"An earthquake has no one to blame" I agree. However, you can get spin doctors and loonies who manage to convince others that some group is to blame. Once they have done that they can manipulate the situation in a direction that pleases them. Witness for example demented Pat Robertson who makes the superstitious claim that the misery in Haiti is a direct result of a pact with the devil when Haiti's people (then slaves) overthrew their French masters two centuries ago.
- pbhjpbhj 17y ago
  I've heard this name Pat Robertson a few times on the 'net. I assume he's in the USA? Can anyone give an audio/video link to his talk where he suggests Haiti's slaves shouldn't have overthrown their French masters as they did? --- Oh never mind, found it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NCduEhkBM#t=0m48s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NCduEhkBM#t=0m48s on a show called The Young Turks (TYT). If you listen to what he says, rather than the commentary, then here is the progression. 1) Haitians were under the heel of the French colonialists 2) Some Haitians [in 1804] made a deal with the devil for release from slavery 3) They were cursed because of that deal 4) Bad stuff has happened to Haiti since, including this earthquake Note, he doesn't say it's the Haitians fault - though I'm sure he would say it was the fault in part of whichever small group made the pact in (1) 200 years ago. Nor does he say they shouldn't have revolted; just that they did it wrong. He seems genuinely concerned to me. He rightly notes that DR is a lot better off and they share the island with Haiti. This last point makes the tragedy of Haitian poverty as much about politics as anything else. If you don't believe in the Devil then you can ignore his statement as it will be nonsensical to you. To the TYT guy I'd say that he shouldn't be too shocked - people do "make deals with the Devil". Robertson may also be using it as a metaphor for rejecting the Gospel. Edit: there is actually some evidence to support Robertson's claim, eg[...] Edit2: cut and pasted to my blog, http://alicious.com/2010/haitian-revolution-devil-pact/ http://alicious.com/2010/haitian-revolution-devil-pact/ as is OT here.
  - joubert 17y ago
    You're kidding, right?
gizmomagico 17y ago
> Probably as many Somalis died as in Haiti (though not in one day) but we only have ourselves to blame, and each victim left a blood debt on his killer, which "must" be avenged (or it has been avenged, and now the victim's family are awaiting reprisals) What are you talking about?
- mahmud 17y ago
  Mostly killings in Somalia are for revenge.
  - gizmomagico 17y ago
    Revenge for what? For another killing?

by mahmud 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

sailormoon 17y ago

An earthquake has no one to blame. The event itself does not, it's true. But there certainly is someone to blame for the shoddy construction standards and grievous lack of preparation. The government is entirely accountable for these things.

cpr 17y ago
There has been no government, in effect, to date, or worse, a corrupt government that was hurting its own people.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Well then that's the problem, isn't it? Look, my point is that something could have been done to prepare, and was not. Mahmud's talking like it's a no-fault act of god that's going to bring everyone together in a solidarity of fellow suffering - I'm saying, if I was Haitian and I'd somehow managed to survive this disaster, I'd compare to how other countries deal with this kind of thing and probably be more angry than ever. Update: I am evidently not stating my point very well. I'm not looking for a scapegoat. I'm trying to raise the possibility that these low expectations of government, this disregard for accountability, and this willingness to dismiss gross negligence and incompetence as somehow inherent in these "other" societies are a big part of the problem. "No-one to blame" indeed. Let me tell you what would happen to the mayor of a Japanese town if he let this happen and then just shrugged his shoulders and claimed there was "no-one to blame".
  - mahmud 17y ago
    I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset. Most construction is done by the local guys, up to the budget and specs of the owner. Really. Safety or aesthetics play very little role; you just build what you can afford and you're done with it. They have been hit with a 7.0 Richter earth quake; even the U.N. and government buildings were floored. Sometimes you just don't have anyone to blame and this is one of those times.
    - berntb 17y ago
      >>I don't think the Haitians have that sense of 1st World, consumer rights, entitled mindset. If you want to see something fun regarding this type of mindset, go check Sweden in Malthus' book on population (added in some later edition). Sweden is today the poster child of the cradle-to-grave nanny state. For good and bad. Malthus wrote about how self sufficient the Swedes were, compared to the rest of Europe, not blaming and demanding help from the state/nobility... :-)
    - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
      "you just build what you can afford and you're done with it" So if you can't afford a 2 story townhouse with earthquake and hurricane proofing you build a one-story that does have proofing and live in 2 rooms instead of 4 but have 2 rooms that are likely to stay standing. If you go for the 4 rooms then the consequences are yours to live with. There are provisos, if earthquakes and hurricanes haven't ever happened where you live for example. This sounds incredibly harsh and I, like most, would probably go with the group and build whatever anyone else was building assuming the worst wouldn't happen to me. God have mercy.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
  - ghshephard 17y ago
    I may be wrong, and would appreciate anybody from a third world country educating me, but I don't believe that building code standards are typically on top of the list of properties by which the citizens of those third world companies evaluate their government. Civil Order, Access to Water, Food, Jobs, lack of corruption are probably much, much higher on their minds than "Are proper seismic standards being enforced." I don't suspect the Haitians will be hating their government because earthquake resistance wasn't built into their building code.
dunstad 17y ago
The buildings were made to withstand hurricanes, not earthquakes. They chose the less frequent of two disasters to be exposed to.
- seldo 17y ago
  Coming from Trinidad and Tobago, where we get both, I assure you it's possible to build in a way to withstand both.
  - gojomo 17y ago
    GDP per capita (World Bank, 2008): $24,742 Trinidad and Tobago (28th) $1,177 Haiti (146th) What's possible in a rich country isn't much of an example of what's possible in a dirt poor country -- the poorest in the western hemisphere. (What other expenditures should Haitians have forgone to afford in-advance disaster preparations and rich-country building standards, for an earthquake that might never come?) Poverty is the ultimate killer here. An event like the earthquake just sets the time-of-death. Blame the poverty, and the policies which perpetuate it, sure. Blaming the Haitian government for not buying insurance -- building standards and disaster preparedness -- they couldn't have afforded anyway is silly.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Agreed. As an example of the abject poverty there compared to even their closest neighbour. Last night my parents recounted their trip (about 10 years ago) to the Dominican Republic. A lot of Haitian labour work in the DR in the fields etc (usual "immigrant labour" stuff you get everywhere). The average wage was about $1 a day. To put it in perspective in the DR (admittedly in the tourist resorts) you bought Coke for $1 :) But $1 didn't buy you a lot more even in the non-tourist regions. And Haitians worked there, apparently, because the wages were good! Calling it a mess is an understatement I think. (I also showed my Dad this link and he said [rough quote] "it was pretty much a dying country when we went there")
    - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
      >Poverty is the ultimate killer here. But what is the cause of the poverty. Is it overpopulated for the resources available? Is the endemic use of heroin marring the countries ability to govern itself? Is it being exploited by outsiders who are creaming off the benefit of the natural resources for themselves? ...
abalashov 17y ago
Easy to say if you're coming from the vantage point of someone living in a rich country.
- theycallmemorty 17y ago
  How many deaths have you heard about in the Dominican Republic? Its not exactly Luxembourg over there but they survived.
  - Cald 17y ago
    The earthquake epicenter was in Haiti. It wasn't felt as strongly in the Dom. Rep. About 6 years ago, an earthquake centered in the northern part of the island destroyed the nearby towns.

adrianwaj 17y ago

This will strengthen their bond more than anything The end of hate, not Haiti.

joubert 17y ago

"An earthquake has no one to blame" I agree. However, you can get spin doctors and loonies who manage to convince others that some group is to blame. Once they have done that they can manipulate the situation in a direction that pleases them. Witness for example demented Pat Robertson who makes the superstitious claim that the misery in Haiti is a direct result of a pact with the devil when Haiti's people (then slaves) overthrew their French masters two centuries ago.

pbhjpbhj 17y ago
I've heard this name Pat Robertson a few times on the 'net. I assume he's in the USA? Can anyone give an audio/video link to his talk where he suggests Haiti's slaves shouldn't have overthrown their French masters as they did? --- Oh never mind, found it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NCduEhkBM#t=0m48s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NCduEhkBM#t=0m48s on a show called The Young Turks (TYT). If you listen to what he says, rather than the commentary, then here is the progression. 1) Haitians were under the heel of the French colonialists 2) Some Haitians [in 1804] made a deal with the devil for release from slavery 3) They were cursed because of that deal 4) Bad stuff has happened to Haiti since, including this earthquake Note, he doesn't say it's the Haitians fault - though I'm sure he would say it was the fault in part of whichever small group made the pact in (1) 200 years ago. Nor does he say they shouldn't have revolted; just that they did it wrong. He seems genuinely concerned to me. He rightly notes that DR is a lot better off and they share the island with Haiti. This last point makes the tragedy of Haitian poverty as much about politics as anything else. If you don't believe in the Devil then you can ignore his statement as it will be nonsensical to you. To the TYT guy I'd say that he shouldn't be too shocked - people do "make deals with the Devil". Robertson may also be using it as a metaphor for rejecting the Gospel. Edit: there is actually some evidence to support Robertson's claim, eg[...] Edit2: cut and pasted to my blog, http://alicious.com/2010/haitian-revolution-devil-pact/ http://alicious.com/2010/haitian-revolution-devil-pact/ as is OT here.
- joubert 17y ago
  You're kidding, right?

gizmomagico 17y ago

> Probably as many Somalis died as in Haiti (though not in one day) but we only have ourselves to blame, and each victim left a blood debt on his killer, which "must" be avenged (or it has been avenged, and now the victim's family are awaiting reprisals) What are you talking about?

mahmud 17y ago
Mostly killings in Somalia are for revenge.
- gizmomagico 17y ago
  Revenge for what? For another killing?