4 ms·

Same here. I want to believe that it's just a minority of students, but it's like every day there is a new incident like that. It was reported that most of the

by dudul 11y ago

Same here. I want to believe that it's just a minority of students, but it's like every day there is a new incident like that. It was reported that most of the administration in colleges is composed of liberals. To be clear, I have nothing against liberals but the over-representation of a specific political/societal opinion in an education setting is not a good thing. And I would say the same thing if it was mostly conservatives in charge of education. And to contrast with what I just wrote, I don't think colleges are responsible (not directly at least) for this new trend, I think they just go with the flow and try to cater to students to attract them, they just give them what they want (safe spaces, puppy time, trigger warnings, etc) to make sure they can keep bringing revenue.

chris_wot 11y ago
Interesting observation. Can't understand why you have been voted down!
- pjc50 11y ago
  Sweeping characterisation of college students as "liberals", especially in a thread where they're being accused of illiberalism. It's the continuation of the US 'culture war'.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    You're confusing "liberal", the US political affiliation, with "liberal" and "liberalism", the philosophy.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      As vezzy-fnord is arguing nearby, they're not unrelated.
      - thaumasiotes 11y ago
        The sweeping generalization that college students are liberals is completely warranted.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535836 The more I read that posters comments the more of a fan I become. Not because I agree, but because it makes me think. I honestly don't say that lightly.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    OK, you used the word "illiberalism". It's a good word, and perfectly expresses your point. It has a nice, clear meaning. But "liberal" has two meanings: It means the opposite of "illiberal", that is, in favor of human freedom. It also means "to the left on the political spectrum", which is a completely orthogonal meaning. (The political left can be as anti-freedom as the political right, and historically, I'm not sure which side has been "better".) Whether or not you like it, both definitions of "liberal" are in common usage. If anything, the political usage is more common than the not-illiberal usage. That means regarding it as "culture war" to call the college students "liberal" is... swimming against the tide? Trying to fight an unwinnable war? Not a good occasion for getting up in arms, at any rate.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Using the word "liberal" to describe leftist policies is a U.S. invention that emerged out of the New Deal and was later hammered to death by neoconservatives who began abusing it to describe profoundly illiberal ideas, or really anything they disliked. It wasn't some grassroots movement, it was a conscious propaganda technique. "I never use the words Republicans and Democrats. It's liberals and Americans." - James G. Watt. It'd be like if one day people started completely uncritically and unironically referring to "libertarians" as "authoritarians". Sure, it's human language and anything goes, but it wouldn't be any less pants-on-head idiotic. Fun fact: the politically conservative party in Australia is called the Liberal Party.
      - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        So if it emerged out of the New Deal, it's got about 80 years worth of becoming entrenched in standard usage. You quote James Watt. That was 30 years ago. This ship sailed a long time ago. You aren't going to change everyone else's usage here, no matter how hard to tilt against that windmill.
        vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        Except it's nothing more than American slang, plain and simple. You may not believe that words have meanings, but I actually put value into semiotics and semantics.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    When I reviewed the comment, there were no responses. It would be so much better if this was expressed as a comment. I was genuinely curious about the downvotes, not because of the score but because I wanted to understand the sentiment! FWIW, the GP didn't make a sweeping statement that all students were liberals, but that it was reported that student administration is largely composed of liberals. Now that is a bit problematic, because a. It doesn't state where this is reported so it's hard to counter, and b. It doesn't define what is meant by the term "liberal"... But these are all things to ask for clarification on. If we could ask for clarification in a respectful way (I'm guilty of not being respectful I'm afraid) these threads would be a lot more enlightening as the discourse would flow more freely and clearly.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      the over-representation of a specific political/societal opinion in an education setting is not a good thing In the US context there is very much a reason for this: the right is hostile to intellectualism per se, and occasionally hostile to non-pragmatic education itself. discourse It's rather rare that the people one is speaking to in a comments thread actually change views in it, especially to the extent that they start off using codeword language. It's more for the 'benefit' of bystanders. And a bit of good old fashioned point-scoring.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Discourse allows for dissemination of ideas. It's not important to change the other person's opinion, but it's good to argue ideas. Comments sections aren't solely for the benefit of the two people hashing out their views, but also for all those reading them.
nailer 11y ago
While a large part of what you're saying is correct, I think the problem you're describing isn't cultural liberals (who are tolerant of dissenting views), but rather cultural authoritarians. These people are on the left, but they are not liberals.
- dudul 11y ago
  Very true. I guess my confusion comes from the fact that "liberals" is often associated to "left-wing" while "authoritarians" is linked to "conservatism". In the end, they are actually orthogonal concerns.
- bpodgursky 11y ago
  I mean... while that may be correct in some semantic sense, it's not a useful distinction. If you took a survey of the groups described in the article, 90% would self-identify as liberal. So the distinction you draw isn't really helpful for clarifying the issue.
  - nailer 11y ago
    Sure. But as a cultural liberal, I think the burden is on actual liberals to disown authoritarians. Otherwise the same thing will happen to the left as what happened to the right in the early 2000s: the end of rational thought, and everyone who disagrees 'hates America' (now 'hates minorities'). And similarly a whole bunch of bad things will happen as a result.
    - bpodgursky 11y ago
      > Otherwise the same thing will happen to the left as what happened to the right in the early 2000s Well, the only disagreement I have is that you think that hasn't happened yet.
    - dudul 11y ago
      Don't you think we're pretty much already there? Isn't the first tactic of liberals to call "racist" and "intolerant" everyone who dares disagree with them? Isn't Hillary's main argument that she's a woman, therefore you should vote for her otherwise you hate women? I came late to America and have no interest in politics (I can't even vote) so I want to believe that I'm able to observe and make a fairly impartial judgement. To me there is no difference between conservatives and liberals, the only details is you either hate America or minorities as you pointed out. Politics in America is sports for the educated.
wfo 11y ago
I think it is a tiny minority of students but the weapon these students are using (public humiliation, being abusive and hateful after trying very hard to establish a position of weakness) doesn't discriminate and I think the silence from the rest of the student body and administrators is primarily out of fear. This weapon can destroy anyone no matter how careful or respectful or noble so the simple fear of it is what keeps the administrators and other students silent.
morgante 11y ago
I don't think the fact that liberals dominate the ranks of most universities is actually related to this phenomenon. Faculty liberals are from the time of student activists favoring free speech, not opposing. Though maybe that is part of the problem: it's harder to have a coherent argument when two very different camps both use the same overarching ideological name to define their diametrically opposed views.

by dudul 11y ago

chris_wot 11y ago

Interesting observation. Can't understand why you have been voted down!

pjc50 11y ago
Sweeping characterisation of college students as "liberals", especially in a thread where they're being accused of illiberalism. It's the continuation of the US 'culture war'.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  You're confusing "liberal", the US political affiliation, with "liberal" and "liberalism", the philosophy.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    As vezzy-fnord is arguing nearby, they're not unrelated.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      The sweeping generalization that college students are liberals is completely warranted.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535836 The more I read that posters comments the more of a fan I become. Not because I agree, but because it makes me think. I honestly don't say that lightly.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  OK, you used the word "illiberalism". It's a good word, and perfectly expresses your point. It has a nice, clear meaning. But "liberal" has two meanings: It means the opposite of "illiberal", that is, in favor of human freedom. It also means "to the left on the political spectrum", which is a completely orthogonal meaning. (The political left can be as anti-freedom as the political right, and historically, I'm not sure which side has been "better".) Whether or not you like it, both definitions of "liberal" are in common usage. If anything, the political usage is more common than the not-illiberal usage. That means regarding it as "culture war" to call the college students "liberal" is... swimming against the tide? Trying to fight an unwinnable war? Not a good occasion for getting up in arms, at any rate.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Using the word "liberal" to describe leftist policies is a U.S. invention that emerged out of the New Deal and was later hammered to death by neoconservatives who began abusing it to describe profoundly illiberal ideas, or really anything they disliked. It wasn't some grassroots movement, it was a conscious propaganda technique. "I never use the words Republicans and Democrats. It's liberals and Americans." - James G. Watt. It'd be like if one day people started completely uncritically and unironically referring to "libertarians" as "authoritarians". Sure, it's human language and anything goes, but it wouldn't be any less pants-on-head idiotic. Fun fact: the politically conservative party in Australia is called the Liberal Party.
    - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      So if it emerged out of the New Deal, it's got about 80 years worth of becoming entrenched in standard usage. You quote James Watt. That was 30 years ago. This ship sailed a long time ago. You aren't going to change everyone else's usage here, no matter how hard to tilt against that windmill.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        Except it's nothing more than American slang, plain and simple. You may not believe that words have meanings, but I actually put value into semiotics and semantics.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  When I reviewed the comment, there were no responses. It would be so much better if this was expressed as a comment. I was genuinely curious about the downvotes, not because of the score but because I wanted to understand the sentiment! FWIW, the GP didn't make a sweeping statement that all students were liberals, but that it was reported that student administration is largely composed of liberals. Now that is a bit problematic, because a. It doesn't state where this is reported so it's hard to counter, and b. It doesn't define what is meant by the term "liberal"... But these are all things to ask for clarification on. If we could ask for clarification in a respectful way (I'm guilty of not being respectful I'm afraid) these threads would be a lot more enlightening as the discourse would flow more freely and clearly.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    the over-representation of a specific political/societal opinion in an education setting is not a good thing In the US context there is very much a reason for this: the right is hostile to intellectualism per se, and occasionally hostile to non-pragmatic education itself. discourse It's rather rare that the people one is speaking to in a comments thread actually change views in it, especially to the extent that they start off using codeword language. It's more for the 'benefit' of bystanders. And a bit of good old fashioned point-scoring.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Discourse allows for dissemination of ideas. It's not important to change the other person's opinion, but it's good to argue ideas. Comments sections aren't solely for the benefit of the two people hashing out their views, but also for all those reading them.

nailer 11y ago

While a large part of what you're saying is correct, I think the problem you're describing isn't cultural liberals (who are tolerant of dissenting views), but rather cultural authoritarians. These people are on the left, but they are not liberals.

dudul 11y ago
Very true. I guess my confusion comes from the fact that "liberals" is often associated to "left-wing" while "authoritarians" is linked to "conservatism". In the end, they are actually orthogonal concerns.
bpodgursky 11y ago
I mean... while that may be correct in some semantic sense, it's not a useful distinction. If you took a survey of the groups described in the article, 90% would self-identify as liberal. So the distinction you draw isn't really helpful for clarifying the issue.
- nailer 11y ago
  Sure. But as a cultural liberal, I think the burden is on actual liberals to disown authoritarians. Otherwise the same thing will happen to the left as what happened to the right in the early 2000s: the end of rational thought, and everyone who disagrees 'hates America' (now 'hates minorities'). And similarly a whole bunch of bad things will happen as a result.
  - bpodgursky 11y ago
    > Otherwise the same thing will happen to the left as what happened to the right in the early 2000s Well, the only disagreement I have is that you think that hasn't happened yet.
  - dudul 11y ago
    Don't you think we're pretty much already there? Isn't the first tactic of liberals to call "racist" and "intolerant" everyone who dares disagree with them? Isn't Hillary's main argument that she's a woman, therefore you should vote for her otherwise you hate women? I came late to America and have no interest in politics (I can't even vote) so I want to believe that I'm able to observe and make a fairly impartial judgement. To me there is no difference between conservatives and liberals, the only details is you either hate America or minorities as you pointed out. Politics in America is sports for the educated.

wfo 11y ago

I think it is a tiny minority of students but the weapon these students are using (public humiliation, being abusive and hateful after trying very hard to establish a position of weakness) doesn't discriminate and I think the silence from the rest of the student body and administrators is primarily out of fear. This weapon can destroy anyone no matter how careful or respectful or noble so the simple fear of it is what keeps the administrators and other students silent.

morgante 11y ago

I don't think the fact that liberals dominate the ranks of most universities is actually related to this phenomenon. Faculty liberals are from the time of student activists favoring free speech, not opposing. Though maybe that is part of the problem: it's harder to have a coherent argument when two very different camps both use the same overarching ideological name to define their diametrically opposed views.