7 ms·

Google services set for 'return' to China

53 points by tellarin 11y ago

kercker 11y ago
Goole withdrew from China years ago because it didn't want to be evil. Now Google plans to return to China, with the same evil or more evil government still there. This clearly shows us that in the business world, there is no evil or non-evil, only money or non-money. That aside, I'm glad that Google is coming.
- MarkMc 11y ago
  It's a little more nuanced. It seems that only Google Play is going into China - not Google search. Wouldn't Google make more money by allowing their search engine to be censored in China? Isn't this a continuing, if limited, example good-evil considerations in business?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > Wouldn't Google make more money by allowing their search engine to be censored in China? Nobody would use it, though. Baidu already has its monopoly.
- kentrado 11y ago
  I guess this was because of the whole "right to be forgotten" fiasco. Afterwards, I image they said: "What the hell, we are already doing arbitrary censorship, lets go back to China"
- brazzledazzle 11y ago
  I was under the impression it was really about China sponsoring hacking and espionage against Google and then turning around and giving the spoils of that to its competitors native to China. I imagine they now feel that they can successfully defend against attacks and compartmentalize Chinese operations. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they kept all "secret sauce" code out of China altogether.
  - mahranch 11y ago
    Yeah, everyone keeps mentioning the whole "evil" aspect, but I was fairly sure google left due to the many, many attacks on it by Chinese hackers (who they believed to be the Chinese government) attempting and successfully stealing their source code: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/03/china-google-idUSN0325873820100303 http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/03/china-google-idUSN...
    - brazzledazzle 11y ago
      I've seen a couple talks by Google employees that support a massive change internally towards how they view security because of it. Besides the pressure to use Mac or Linux for workstations they also decided to just get rid of the concept of a "perimeter" for their corporate network entirely. No squishy inside if there's no inside.
- justicezyx 11y ago
  For the years, Google has been working with NSA...
- yeukhon 11y ago
  Google never left China to be exact, although google.com.cn is currently a symlink to google.com.hk, which its internet governance is under HK's Common Law. One may argue that HK is under China's governance, but I have not seen anyone complaining about Internet censorship (political correctness is a different thing).
  - gkop 11y ago
    > a symlink Like, a cname?
    - yeukhon 11y ago
      It's a slang I use to mean for various of things :-) like aliases. I am an infrastructure person. Actually google.com.cn is not a CNAME to google.com.hk. You have to click on the image they put on .cn which redirects you to .hk.
      - gkop 11y ago
        I too like symlink as a useful general purpose reference point that's more specific than pointer. In this case though it's a bit dissonant since there is a direct analog in the domain of DNS (cname). Thanks for the clarification!
        yeukhon 11y ago
        Hey no worries! I got carry away :-)
simula67 11y ago
If Google is returning under the same terms it exited, it could be a sign of 'shift in principles' for the search giant. It could mean Google is OK with censorship, as long as it is allowed to make money. This is a departure from Google's 'Do no evil' mantra and it could be a sign that the company is becoming more like any other standard company; aimed at maximizing shareholder value and nothing else. Maybe it already was, but there is no pretense anymore.
- olalonde 11y ago
  Right now, Google is 100% censored in China (blocked). I'd much rather have a censored Google than nothing at all.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - alxv 11y ago
    "Don't be evil" is still included in Google's code of conduct. https://investor.google.com/corporate/google-code-of-conduct.html https://investor.google.com/corporate/google-code-of-conduct...
    - omginternets 11y ago
      >"Don't be evil" Thankfully (for Google), that phrase is completely vapid and meaningless. Also thankfully (for Google), self-enforced codes of conduct are vapid and meaningless. Edit (in an effort to be more constructive): I think it's important to distinguish corporate posturing from actual, meaningful intent. I see no reason to consider Google's CoC as anything but the former.
    - sparkie 11y ago
      Their whole CoC is a roundabout way of saying: Follow the policies! Obey the law! It doesn't suggest that Employees should ever exercise their own moral judgement without first contacting Ethics & Compliance.
- 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rdlecler1 11y ago
Google is doing fine without China. Doing business in China will create dependencies/risks that once established could be difficult for Google to turn back. I just don't know if it's worth it.
kumarm 11y ago
I am glad Google is going to launch Play Store in China. As an Android developer, here is what is happening: "Chinese developers can sell in China and Rest of the world. Rest of the World find it near impossible to launch services for Chinese customers." I am sure having Google Play Store in China provides a Path to launch Apps in China for Developers outside china.
- shasheene 11y ago
  It's wrong to capitalize every noun in an English sentence. The only words that need capitalization are 'proper nouns' (eg, names of countries, companies, places etc), and the first letter at the start of a sentence.
- Dolores12 11y ago
  You are no different than google. It's all about money.
netheril96 11y ago
I had the same views as many people here before. That Google returning to China is abandoning its principles. But seeing how my friends and family suffer with Baidu, I wonder, what exactly "Do no evil" by not cooperating with Chinese government is good for? It does not in any way boost human rights or freedom in China, and the only tangible result is that ordinary Chinese citizens are suffering even more because of lack of access to a better search engine. Exiting China does more "evil" than returning to it, at least from a utilitarian perspective.
- xiaoma 11y ago
  Could you elaborate on how they suffer with Baidu? I've found it to be top-notch and better than Google for the normal searches made in China. I generally make it my default while there even when using a VPN.
  - colordrops 11y ago
    They don't use an algorithm similar to page rank. Results are much more biased towards special interests than google.
    - jhancock 11y ago
      Here's one long running anecdote. I've been operating a self-published book site for over five years. All Chinese content. Some of the books are banned in China. Much of the content no China online publisher will touch. Baidu loves my site. Searches are often in the top three results on Baidu. I have no ads and pay Baidu nothing. Don't even help them find my site. Baidu even runs its own book site and gives my site plenty of love. To my knowledge the site has never been blocked by the GFW. Google barely knows I exist even though I follow all their webmaster rules. I'm not sure if its because of low page rank or Google not being great at Chinese content. I suppose my point is page rank isn't the only way to go or at least having a strong reliance on page rank may leave out unique or rare content that isn't marketed (quality inbound links) heavily.
    - argonaut 11y ago
iamleppert 11y ago
"Each Alphabet business could now make its own decision about where it operated" AKA...some units are harder up for cash than others, and can decide to pick and choose principles a la carte. At the very least, a return will raise some eyebrows? I assume if they do plan on returning it means they are either abandoning their ideals of "do no evil", or else the Chinese government has changed their ways? I find the later highly unlikely. And the comment about "Google never left China". There was a lot of PR and noise when they left so this comment just baffles me and really makes me think ill when people pick and choose words and play with semantics.
- pkaye 11y ago
  So Google returning to China makes them evil? What about all the other companies operating in China?
justcommenting 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtlzSvJudg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtlzSvJudg
contingencies 11y ago
For others inside China, I discovered the other day to my surprise that http://translate.google.cn/ http://translate.google.cn/ works fine. Very handy.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  Well, you might be able to connect to it fine. The functionality certainly isn't "fine".
  - contingencies 11y ago
    It works for me? I've translated a bunch of languages using it in the last few days. What's the issue you're having?
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Chinese/English translation, in either direction, is pretty worthless.
      - johansch 11y ago
        Google Translate works quite well on technical content written in Chinese, I have noticed.
- prewett 11y ago
  maps.google.cn (or maybe ditu.google.cn, can't remember) is also handy, and doesn't have the offset that maps.google.com does.
qihqi 11y ago
Even though it is not said in the article, I believe this is just google play & google play services returning to China, not Search or Youtube. GPS is essential for wearables too work, and many fragmentation of Android market

53 points by tellarin 11y ago

Goole withdrew from China years ago because it didn't want to be evil. Now Google plans to return to China, with the same evil or more evil government still there. This clearly shows us that in the business world, there is no evil or non-evil, only money or non-money. That aside, I'm glad that Google is coming.

MarkMc 11y ago
It's a little more nuanced. It seems that only Google Play is going into China - not Google search. Wouldn't Google make more money by allowing their search engine to be censored in China? Isn't this a continuing, if limited, example good-evil considerations in business?
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > Wouldn't Google make more money by allowing their search engine to be censored in China? Nobody would use it, though. Baidu already has its monopoly.
kentrado 11y ago
I guess this was because of the whole "right to be forgotten" fiasco. Afterwards, I image they said: "What the hell, we are already doing arbitrary censorship, lets go back to China"
brazzledazzle 11y ago
I was under the impression it was really about China sponsoring hacking and espionage against Google and then turning around and giving the spoils of that to its competitors native to China. I imagine they now feel that they can successfully defend against attacks and compartmentalize Chinese operations. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they kept all "secret sauce" code out of China altogether.
- mahranch 11y ago
  Yeah, everyone keeps mentioning the whole "evil" aspect, but I was fairly sure google left due to the many, many attacks on it by Chinese hackers (who they believed to be the Chinese government) attempting and successfully stealing their source code: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/03/china-google-idUSN0325873820100303 http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/03/china-google-idUSN...
  - brazzledazzle 11y ago
    I've seen a couple talks by Google employees that support a massive change internally towards how they view security because of it. Besides the pressure to use Mac or Linux for workstations they also decided to just get rid of the concept of a "perimeter" for their corporate network entirely. No squishy inside if there's no inside.
justicezyx 11y ago
For the years, Google has been working with NSA...
yeukhon 11y ago
Google never left China to be exact, although google.com.cn is currently a symlink to google.com.hk, which its internet governance is under HK's Common Law. One may argue that HK is under China's governance, but I have not seen anyone complaining about Internet censorship (political correctness is a different thing).
- gkop 11y ago
  > a symlink Like, a cname?
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    It's a slang I use to mean for various of things :-) like aliases. I am an infrastructure person. Actually google.com.cn is not a CNAME to google.com.hk. You have to click on the image they put on .cn which redirects you to .hk.
    - gkop 11y ago
      I too like symlink as a useful general purpose reference point that's more specific than pointer. In this case though it's a bit dissonant since there is a direct analog in the domain of DNS (cname). Thanks for the clarification!
      - yeukhon 11y ago
        Hey no worries! I got carry away :-)

simula67 11y ago

If Google is returning under the same terms it exited, it could be a sign of 'shift in principles' for the search giant. It could mean Google is OK with censorship, as long as it is allowed to make money. This is a departure from Google's 'Do no evil' mantra and it could be a sign that the company is becoming more like any other standard company; aimed at maximizing shareholder value and nothing else. Maybe it already was, but there is no pretense anymore.

olalonde 11y ago
Right now, Google is 100% censored in China (blocked). I'd much rather have a censored Google than nothing at all.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- alxv 11y ago
  "Don't be evil" is still included in Google's code of conduct. https://investor.google.com/corporate/google-code-of-conduct.html https://investor.google.com/corporate/google-code-of-conduct...
  - omginternets 11y ago
    >"Don't be evil" Thankfully (for Google), that phrase is completely vapid and meaningless. Also thankfully (for Google), self-enforced codes of conduct are vapid and meaningless. Edit (in an effort to be more constructive): I think it's important to distinguish corporate posturing from actual, meaningful intent. I see no reason to consider Google's CoC as anything but the former.
  - sparkie 11y ago
    Their whole CoC is a roundabout way of saying: Follow the policies! Obey the law! It doesn't suggest that Employees should ever exercise their own moral judgement without first contacting Ethics & Compliance.
11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

rdlecler1 11y ago

Google is doing fine without China. Doing business in China will create dependencies/risks that once established could be difficult for Google to turn back. I just don't know if it's worth it.

kumarm 11y ago

I am glad Google is going to launch Play Store in China. As an Android developer, here is what is happening: "Chinese developers can sell in China and Rest of the world. Rest of the World find it near impossible to launch services for Chinese customers." I am sure having Google Play Store in China provides a Path to launch Apps in China for Developers outside china.

shasheene 11y ago
It's wrong to capitalize every noun in an English sentence. The only words that need capitalization are 'proper nouns' (eg, names of countries, companies, places etc), and the first letter at the start of a sentence.
Dolores12 11y ago
You are no different than google. It's all about money.

netheril96 11y ago

I had the same views as many people here before. That Google returning to China is abandoning its principles. But seeing how my friends and family suffer with Baidu, I wonder, what exactly "Do no evil" by not cooperating with Chinese government is good for? It does not in any way boost human rights or freedom in China, and the only tangible result is that ordinary Chinese citizens are suffering even more because of lack of access to a better search engine. Exiting China does more "evil" than returning to it, at least from a utilitarian perspective.

xiaoma 11y ago
Could you elaborate on how they suffer with Baidu? I've found it to be top-notch and better than Google for the normal searches made in China. I generally make it my default while there even when using a VPN.
- colordrops 11y ago
  They don't use an algorithm similar to page rank. Results are much more biased towards special interests than google.
  - jhancock 11y ago
    Here's one long running anecdote. I've been operating a self-published book site for over five years. All Chinese content. Some of the books are banned in China. Much of the content no China online publisher will touch. Baidu loves my site. Searches are often in the top three results on Baidu. I have no ads and pay Baidu nothing. Don't even help them find my site. Baidu even runs its own book site and gives my site plenty of love. To my knowledge the site has never been blocked by the GFW. Google barely knows I exist even though I follow all their webmaster rules. I'm not sure if its because of low page rank or Google not being great at Chinese content. I suppose my point is page rank isn't the only way to go or at least having a strong reliance on page rank may leave out unique or rare content that isn't marketed (quality inbound links) heavily.
  - argonaut 11y ago

iamleppert 11y ago

"Each Alphabet business could now make its own decision about where it operated" AKA...some units are harder up for cash than others, and can decide to pick and choose principles a la carte. At the very least, a return will raise some eyebrows? I assume if they do plan on returning it means they are either abandoning their ideals of "do no evil", or else the Chinese government has changed their ways? I find the later highly unlikely. And the comment about "Google never left China". There was a lot of PR and noise when they left so this comment just baffles me and really makes me think ill when people pick and choose words and play with semantics.

pkaye 11y ago
So Google returning to China makes them evil? What about all the other companies operating in China?

justcommenting 11y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtlzSvJudg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtlzSvJudg

contingencies 11y ago

For others inside China, I discovered the other day to my surprise that http://translate.google.cn/ http://translate.google.cn/ works fine. Very handy.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
Well, you might be able to connect to it fine. The functionality certainly isn't "fine".
- contingencies 11y ago
  It works for me? I've translated a bunch of languages using it in the last few days. What's the issue you're having?
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Chinese/English translation, in either direction, is pretty worthless.
    - johansch 11y ago
      Google Translate works quite well on technical content written in Chinese, I have noticed.
prewett 11y ago
maps.google.cn (or maybe ditu.google.cn, can't remember) is also handy, and doesn't have the offset that maps.google.com does.

qihqi 11y ago

Even though it is not said in the article, I believe this is just google play & google play services returning to China, not Search or Youtube. GPS is essential for wearables too work, and many fragmentation of Android market