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There is a basic assumption that people aren't questioning: that older children are useless in helping teach and supervise younger children. This flies in the
by ef4 11y ago
There is a basic assumption that people aren't questioning: that older children are useless in helping teach and supervise younger children.
This flies in the face of historical experience, and it robs everyone involved of opportunities for learning and growth. It is nuts that we segregate children by birth year, all the way from preschool until college.
In a mixed-age setting, the older kids can do enough teaching, entertaining, and watching to significantly amplify a single adult's capabilities. To the point where much higher kid-to-adult ratios work just fine.
And far from taking something away from older kids by engaging them in this work, you actually give them valuable learning opportunities. You give them real responsibility to be proud of, an immediate motivation to master the things they'll be asked to teach, and a longer-term perspective on their own growth and life trajectory.
- everyone 11y agoThis is how more normal (hunter gatherers, stone tool using farmers for example) human societies work, with kids in multi-age groups of both sexes. Also the grandparents play an important role in childminding. Jared Diamonds recent book "the world until yesterday" is on the topic of stuff we can learn from such other societies.
- ef4 11y agoAgreed, elderly people are also tragically isolated from their traditional role of helping and being helped by children. And people complain of all the same problems with the elderly: they need to be looked after, and it's expensive, and caregivers are underpaid.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago>Also the grandparents play an important role in childminding. // Child-"minding" gives the wrong impression I feel, child-rearing [raising to adulthood] perhaps gives a better view. Childminding to me suggests the very basic task of ensuring the child doesn't come to harm as opposed to the more complex task of aiding them to develop in to well rounded adults.
- chrstphrhrt 11y agoThis seems intuitively obvious. Is there any particular research on this topic that would provide some depth for the curious? How do you go about qualifying and reviewing the abilities and performance of non-adult caretakers in a way that is also useful to their own development?
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y agoWhile I'm not mad at you in particular, this approach makes me mad. "How do you go about qualifying and reviewing", the previous 200,000 years of (anatomically modern) human development doesn't mean anything? Why do we need a 'scientific study' for everything? This is particularly evident in 'nutritional science' too, when I see an article 'such-and-such vegetable is good for you' I just laugh. Of course it is, we've been eating plants (and animals) for hundreds of thousands of years. What else? How should we humans raise our young? It'd be pretty difficult to do worse than the current standard. I remember watching Koyaanisqatsi a couple of decades ago and just thinking "Yep, pretty much." In the Hopi language, the word Koyaanisqatsi means "unbalanced life" One of our issues in these times is that we are all so sceptical we demand 'evidence' for everything, then go on to doubt the methodology and debate how to interpret the results, and then fail to act. We've reduced the family unit to 1 -we literally live alone- and then wonder why children, adolescents, and adults aren't 'well adjusted'. Are families are (often) so sick it's little wonder we move away from them. Not to mention the economic incentives: we can sell more lawn mowers if everyone has to own one. It's good for 'the economy', as though The Economy is some entity separate from ourselves. It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Krishnamurti Mustn't've had my medication today. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi
- striking 11y agoIt would be beneficial to quantify exactly what about a certain vegetable is good, and to compare it to others. That way, you could obtain the most nutritional value within certain constraints. Perhaps a certain vegetable is known to provide the most nutrients for the longest storage time. This could benefit people in third-world countries, whose food storage is at a premium. I get it, you're disillusioned with people who demand scientific evidence uber alles. But the approach has its benefits. And what you may think is obvious because it was true in the past may be proven wrong. What I don't understand is that you seem to be asking for people to think less critically. We should end science and just return to the olden times? Some of your argument makes a lot of sense to me (sharing lawnmowers with our neighbors rather than owning them entirely). But you also ask people to act without knowledge. Your argument doesn't offer much in the way of solutions besides immediately acting without data.
- nkrumm 11y agoAgreed-- especially in the early years of education. The Montessori model [0] is based on this. I remember being taught by older students, and then teaching/helping younger students with the same concepts. In addition, mixed-age models lets each student advance at his/her own pace for each subject area. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education
- ef4 11y agoYes, if I recall correctly, Maria Montessori suggested a 50 to 1 student teacher ratio!
- janesvilleseo 11y agoI agree that it works. But all of the legislation and rules will not allow it. If something happens to your child whose fault is it? The adult, the older child. How can you qualify that an older child is able to 'help' and in what capacity. My mother in law runs an in home daycare. Has been for over 25 years. Fully licensed. The rules and regulations get harder every year. She is allowed 8 kids at most at one time. She has to be certified in CPR for children and newborns, take continuing education courses, background check anybody who lives in her house (including herself) since she runs an in home daycare, monthly/quarterly/random visits from the state, and stay on top of all of the various new rules. While it has worked in the past, I just can not see it working in our current sue happy culture.
- eru 11y agoYou don't need to put in any formal requirements for the older kids. So no qualifications necessary. Kids of different ages (and even of same ages) will teach each other naturally when they hang out. It's not that hard. Officially they are all just kids in the daycare, they just happen to be of mixed ages. Newborns are a different kettle of fish. But people are aware of the differences.
- lisivka 11y agoBut they can teach both good and _bad_ things.
- QSIITurbo 11y agoThe older are in school learning more challenging things. Most teens would be unable to take the responsibility, and most are not psychologically mature enough to meet today's standards. The modern world is more complicated and education is more advanced than it was, say, 100 years ago.
- adrianN 11y agoI would never send my child to a school with such a system. Just look at the quality you get from asking teenagers (or even college students!) to prepare presentations. Usually the result is so awful that you can't cover the topic in the exam and expect anyone to pass. I wouldn't want my child to be taught via a game of Chinese whispers. There is a reason why teachers have to be well educated, not only in the field they teach but also in teaching methods.
- eru 11y agoPresentations are a horrible way to teach (and learn). I've learned eg cycling from practical demonstrations of my slightly older cousins.
- falcolas 11y agoThis is highly dependent on the student. Some students learn quite well from lectures, some need an interactive discussion, others need to "do", and others still benefit from teaching to understand.
- ef4 11y ago> Just look at the quality you get from asking teenagers (or even college students!) to prepare presentations. The counterpoint is that those teenagers suck because they missed out on years of practice because they were never given the opportunity to actually teach anyone anything meaningful before. You are also presuming a high-stakes situation where mistakes are costly and go uncorrected forever. That is not realistic. Well-educated teachers are still vital, and a lesson gone bad presents even more teaching opportunities than a lesson gone well.
- hyperion2010 11y agoI have always said that I only feel like I truly know something when I have taught something to someone else and they have learned it. Getting to explain and articulate ideas to others so that they can understand it is how many people learn best. Everyone wins in these situations.
- m_mueller 11y agoJapan does that quite a bit with their 'Senpai' culture (formal title of a colleague/coworker that has more years than you). It's not necessarily in mixed classes, this sort of thing is also possible through various side activities (clubs and school run mostly). Just as an example, here is how school runs are organized in Japan: You usually do not see parents involved. Instead a senpai in the neighbourhood is assigned to each group of young children to lead them to school, starting at age 6. At each street corner there is an adult watching, often seniors. All this is organized through some sort of neighborhood councils. Works beautifully, gives parents more time and older children a sense of responsibility.
- eru 11y agoBy school run, do you mean an athletic competition, or just walking to school?
- m_mueller 11y agowalking to school. Isn't that called 'school run' in the US, i.e. when parents drive their children there?
- QuercusMax 11y agoSorry, no. I can sort of see how that could make sense (we might talk about going for a beer run or a grocery run, that is, a trip to pick something up from a store). I'm not sure if there really is a term for it, other than "going to school".
- m_mueller 11y agoApparently it's a British term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_run
- eru 11y agoWhy do they need so much oversight? Can't the kids just walk to school on their own? (We took our bikes to school in Germany on our own in the 90s.)
- conceit 11y agoBut children have to be separated by age to compare and rate their progress, in order to separate them further.
- mipapage 11y agoMy son went to a pre-school where they mixed the ages. His first day there an older child helped him button up his apron that they needed for painting. I was there for several mornings at first, while he adapted to being away from us, and saw this happen time and again. Having the older children help the younger ones had the great result that, once in elementary school where they are separated, the younger ones are like younger siblings to the older ones. It has been fantastic watching this develop thru the years.
- eitally 11y agoMy children have done the same, and it's never failed to amaze me both how empathetic and how helpful toddlers and young children (aged up to pre-k) naturally are. There's also a HUGE gap in educability between the majority of kids who attended preschool (of any kind) and kids who stayed home until kindergarten. I'm not sure if this says more about kindergarten or preschool, but there's no question that the socialization and group learning environment of preschool helps kids adjust to primary school.
- lazyant 11y ago> It is nuts that we segregate children by birth year The ones that were doing differently are being forced to stop: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/10/30/new-daycare-rules-incompatible-with-montessori-philosophy-educators-say.html http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/10/30/new-daycare-rules...