5 ms·

The drivers who would rather be employees--which Uber claims are a small minority--might be better off finding a traditional job with a livery service. The who

The drivers who would rather be employees--which Uber claims are a small minority--might be better off finding a traditional job with a livery service. The whole point of Uber and its ilk, or so I thought, was to "crowd-source" transportation using ride sharing. It's not "sharing" if they're employees. Amazon Flex is going to crowd-source deliveries by engaging tens of thousands of individuals to drop off packages in their neighborhoods. Does that mean Amazon must automatically hire tens of thousands of employees, with all the paperwork and overhead, even if some of them only deliver an occasional package? This whole approach probably needs to be hashed out in the courts, but my gut feeling is that some people are wanting to have their cake and eat it too--the ease and flexibility of self-employment combined with the benefits of full time employment.

throwaway2048 11y ago
uber drivers are not meaningfully self employed, but its of great advantage to uber to pretend they are. It is uber that is trying to "have its cake and eat it".
- paulgb 11y ago
  At least in NYC, most of the drivers I talk to drive for multiple services (e.g. Via during rush hour, Uber on weekends). This is probably less the case in cities where Uber is more dominant though.
  - throwaway2048 11y ago
    people can hold more than one job and still be employees
    - enjo 11y ago
      Uber drivers can hold more than one job doing exactly the same thing. They are free to pick up rides or not on whatever schedule they want. They bring their own equipment to the job. They've always seemed to meet the definition of contractor to me (I know a certain court in California disagrees). * edit: Having just now read the article, it seems like Uber has some sort of minimum hour requirement, which would definitely change the equation quite a bit.
      - facetube 11y ago
        IRS: "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed."
    - bpodgursky 11y ago
      How could you expect every company they drive for (concurrently) to simultaneously pay them the same hourly ( > minimum) wage? I can't see any outcome with "employee" status that would let drivers continue to drive for two services at the same time. This would add a HUGE barrier to entry for new companies in this market -- I would argue it's hugely anti-competitive, given the critical-mass you need for a ridesharing service to work. And could easily result in lower effective hourly wages for drivers, if they spend more time idling around.
      - throwaway2048 11y ago
        You can't effectively work for anyone else while you are "on call" with uber because that would mean you would eventually have to decline too many ride requests, which would result in uber banning you. Combine that with the fact uber has on-call-hours minimums, and one can see although the hours may be more flexible, the workers are very much not independant. A critical component of being an (actual) contractor is the peicemeal basis of it, without further, unconnected obligation.
        travisp 11y ago
        I see drivers doing this all the time, and here's a guide for drivers to doing it: http://therideshareguy.com/how-to-drive-for-uber-and-lyft-at-the-same-time/ http://therideshareguy.com/how-to-drive-for-uber-and-lyft-at... "Once that is complete, you will be back online with Uber. Switch to the Lyft app to go back online with Lyft."
    - amyjess 11y ago
      Most companies don't allow employees to moonlight for direct competitors.
lumberjack 11y ago
It's not sharing anyway you look at it. Carpooling networks do exist but Uber is not one of them.
- ionforce 11y ago
  What's the difference between a carpooling network with a high amount of usage versus Uber?
  - TillE 11y ago
    It's literally not "carpooling" unless the driver was already headed in that direction. Nobody "carpools" all day for money. That's just someone being paid to drive a car.
adrusi 11y ago
This is simply not what Uber does. Uber has never actually been a ride sharing service. A carpooling service is a ride sharing service. A real ride sharing service doesn't have drivers and riders where the riders pay the drivers. Don't drink the kool-aid, all of Uber's "ride sharing" and "crowd sourcing" and "sharing economy" nonsense is just marketing and legal stunts. They are essentially an online sweatshop a la mechanical turk for driving. I don't hate Uber, I think that on an ethical level it's probably superior to traditional taxi companies who entrap their drivers by paying for their taxi license (they lobby to make these very expensive) and then paying the drivers poorly until it's time to renw the license. But Uber is not a magical wonderful silicon valley company that's going to fix all the problems with taxis by disrupting it with some sharing economy. Uber is a company that found a loophole in the law that would allow it to create a global taxi service that isn't legally a taxi service, and this loophole involves drivers giving up a lot of legal protections.
- VincentEvans 11y ago
  Your explanation strikes a nerve and certainly makes me "hate Uber".
celticninja 11y ago
the issue in play seems to be the right to paid time off, these workers say they are working 60-70 hours per week for UBER and should therefore accrue paid time off. This appears to be the crux of the matter. If they are successful the only solution for UBER will be to reduce driver hours so their accrued time off is not too much. Of course this means needing more drivers to cover the hours not being worked.

throwaway2048 11y ago

uber drivers are not meaningfully self employed, but its of great advantage to uber to pretend they are. It is uber that is trying to "have its cake and eat it".

paulgb 11y ago
At least in NYC, most of the drivers I talk to drive for multiple services (e.g. Via during rush hour, Uber on weekends). This is probably less the case in cities where Uber is more dominant though.
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  people can hold more than one job and still be employees
  - enjo 11y ago
    Uber drivers can hold more than one job doing exactly the same thing. They are free to pick up rides or not on whatever schedule they want. They bring their own equipment to the job. They've always seemed to meet the definition of contractor to me (I know a certain court in California disagrees). * edit: Having just now read the article, it seems like Uber has some sort of minimum hour requirement, which would definitely change the equation quite a bit.
    - facetube 11y ago
      IRS: "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed."
  - bpodgursky 11y ago
    How could you expect every company they drive for (concurrently) to simultaneously pay them the same hourly ( > minimum) wage? I can't see any outcome with "employee" status that would let drivers continue to drive for two services at the same time. This would add a HUGE barrier to entry for new companies in this market -- I would argue it's hugely anti-competitive, given the critical-mass you need for a ridesharing service to work. And could easily result in lower effective hourly wages for drivers, if they spend more time idling around.
    - throwaway2048 11y ago
      You can't effectively work for anyone else while you are "on call" with uber because that would mean you would eventually have to decline too many ride requests, which would result in uber banning you. Combine that with the fact uber has on-call-hours minimums, and one can see although the hours may be more flexible, the workers are very much not independant. A critical component of being an (actual) contractor is the peicemeal basis of it, without further, unconnected obligation.
      - travisp 11y ago
        I see drivers doing this all the time, and here's a guide for drivers to doing it: http://therideshareguy.com/how-to-drive-for-uber-and-lyft-at-the-same-time/ http://therideshareguy.com/how-to-drive-for-uber-and-lyft-at... "Once that is complete, you will be back online with Uber. Switch to the Lyft app to go back online with Lyft."
  - amyjess 11y ago
    Most companies don't allow employees to moonlight for direct competitors.

lumberjack 11y ago

It's not sharing anyway you look at it. Carpooling networks do exist but Uber is not one of them.

ionforce 11y ago
What's the difference between a carpooling network with a high amount of usage versus Uber?
- TillE 11y ago
  It's literally not "carpooling" unless the driver was already headed in that direction. Nobody "carpools" all day for money. That's just someone being paid to drive a car.

adrusi 11y ago

This is simply not what Uber does. Uber has never actually been a ride sharing service. A carpooling service is a ride sharing service. A real ride sharing service doesn't have drivers and riders where the riders pay the drivers. Don't drink the kool-aid, all of Uber's "ride sharing" and "crowd sourcing" and "sharing economy" nonsense is just marketing and legal stunts. They are essentially an online sweatshop a la mechanical turk for driving. I don't hate Uber, I think that on an ethical level it's probably superior to traditional taxi companies who entrap their drivers by paying for their taxi license (they lobby to make these very expensive) and then paying the drivers poorly until it's time to renw the license. But Uber is not a magical wonderful silicon valley company that's going to fix all the problems with taxis by disrupting it with some sharing economy. Uber is a company that found a loophole in the law that would allow it to create a global taxi service that isn't legally a taxi service, and this loophole involves drivers giving up a lot of legal protections.

VincentEvans 11y ago
Your explanation strikes a nerve and certainly makes me "hate Uber".

celticninja 11y ago

the issue in play seems to be the right to paid time off, these workers say they are working 60-70 hours per week for UBER and should therefore accrue paid time off. This appears to be the crux of the matter. If they are successful the only solution for UBER will be to reduce driver hours so their accrued time off is not too much. Of course this means needing more drivers to cover the hours not being worked.