6 ms·

Hands on with Apple Pay Competitor CurrentC

37 points by jszumski 11y ago

sarahprobono 11y ago
I have to say, just because of the privacy implications, I'm much more inclined to use Apple Pay than CurrentC.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- DaveWalk 11y ago
  I'm not an Apple Pay user -- is their privacy policy any good? Does it not collect metadata? The article highlights CurrentC's brazen lack of privacy. From their policy: > We share your information across our network of merchants and with our third party service providers. MCX may share...To third-party analytic providers and advertising partners to help us deliver, track and analyze the operations and effectiveness of our marketing campaigns, promotions or advertisements.
  - macavity23 11y ago
    Apple Pay's privacy is much better. AIUI: Apple knows nothing about your cards (they are all encrypted on-device), and nothing about your transaction except that there was A transaction (since Apple just sees a token that gets passed from you to the card provider). The merchant doesn't see your real cc number, just a one-use token. So they can't track you unless you choose to add a loyalty card. The card provider sees all details of the transaction. Just as now, and what you want. And the real cc details are stored in dedicated silicon on a fingerprint-locked device.
    - pdpi 11y ago
      > The merchant doesn't see your real cc number, just a one-use token It's worth noting that the token is one-per-vendor, rather than one-per-payment. This is what allows TFL to match your tap-in to your tap-out on the London Underground, and what allows them to apply daily/weekly capping on fares.
prplhaz4 11y ago
I believe CurrentC's (Paydiant's) QR code tokenization works the same as you've described Apple Pay tokenization - the merchant POS does not see any payment info other than a one-time-use token. This was another decent teardown of Paydiant's Subway app - but it looks like someone high up has had some of the code redacted :) http://randywestergren.com/reverse-engineering-the-subway-android-app/ http://randywestergren.com/reverse-engineering-the-subway-an... Functionally, it looks like CurrentC only has two advantages over *Pays - loyalty integration and big box retailer backing. Not likely enough, but will be interesting to see how it plays out in the lower end market where a flagship device is not required...
- gergles 11y ago
  The checking account number listed in the screenshot is also printed on the receipt, so they don't appear to be tokenizing from a casual inspection.
  - prplhaz4 11y ago
    I have worked with APIs in the past that would only make masked account numbers or last 4 digits available. Stripe is a great example - after the initial card is created, everything is tokenized, and they only allow you to pull the last 4 digits as an identifier.
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  As far as loyalty integration, there is some of that in Apple Pay -- it supports my local supermarket and drug store (Wegman's and Walgreen's, respectively).
  - prplhaz4 11y ago
    Any chance you can point me to a good demo? I haven't seen a good single-scan loyalty/payment demo for ApplePay yet, and the SamsungPay demo seems to imply it but isn't very clear...
  - MBCook 11y ago
mfringel 11y ago
Between the privacy concerns and the fact that it's ACH only, it sounds like it has a tremendous benefit for retailers.... and precisely none for me.
jimkri 11y ago
I really don't understand what the companies involved with MCX are thinking. They build an app that is going in the opposite direction of where the market is heading and limit the amount of payments they accept. I was in line at 7-11 at my university, where an girl was trying to use the currentc app. She was 2 people ahead of me, when I went up to pay she was still trying to pay with the app. At first her screen was to dim, and the scanner would not read the QR code. Eventually she was able to pay, but I was already long gone by that time. If you look on the google play store it has a rating of 1.1 starts. This is straight from its website,"Merchant Customer Exchange is the only merchant-owned mobile commerce network built to streamline the customer shopping experience across all major retail verticals." With an app that rates 1.1 stars and no improvement, I don't think it cares about the shopping experience, and people will see this eventually.
- untog 11y ago
  A clue to what the companies are thinking from the article: "Its payments are also routed from the retailer to the ACH system instead of the credit card system, which saves retailers from having to pay interchange fees (typically around 2% of the transaction amount)"
  - jimkri 11y ago
    Yea I realized that when I was thinking about it. Which is a financial smart reason, but in the end it limits them. If I only have my phone which I have android pay on and I need to get something from a drug store, I would go to CVS but they don't accept NFC. So I will have to go to Walgreen's instead which is usually near a CVS. So I don't get why they don't offer NFC, because keeping 98% of the transaction amount is better than 0.
    - untog 11y ago
      Because what you're saying won't happen in a lot of situations. Drugs stores are interchangeable, but Target and Walmart are much less so, particularly out of urban centres.
wahsd 11y ago
"...retail customer's money is on the line in the event of fraud..." is a good point that may just slide by. The fact that corporations have significantly moved to evading any kind of responsibility through various means from regulatory capture to force arbitration and market monopoly; it strikes me that the factor of risk to the retail consumer aspect will play a huge role. It is a huge competitive disadvantage, to both not develop something well and with vigilance towards security like Apple Pay is, while also then setting in place a framework for conveying to customers that "if there is fraud because of our poorly designed and developed system, we are going to duck and weave like champions". Do you want to keep away customers, i.e., revenue, because that's how you keep away customers.
Veratyr 11y ago
In Australia retailers have supported NFC in the form of Visa's payWave and Mastercard's PayPass for years now and I've got to say, it's fantastic compared to the experience in the US. Walk into a supermarket/retailer/cinema/restaurant in Melbourne and payment is as simple as waving your card at the terminal. If the purchase is less than ~$100 you don't need to enter a PIN and don't need to sign anything (we outlawed signatures for domestic payments mid last year). It's just done. Visa/Mastercard/banks generally cover any fraudulent purchases using the system so you don't need to worry too much about fraud. In addition to this, since the US tech companies generally don't appear to have cared about the rest of the world until now, our banks have provided us with contactless payment apps for our phones and unlike the numerous standards being developed in the US, the banks' apps work with the existing payWave/PayPass systems that are already supported. The reason I'm bringing this up is to show just how behind the US is when it comes to payments. I'm currently living in the Bay Area and the only places I've been able to successfully complete a purchase using a contactless payment method are Office Depot and Whole Foods. Most fast food places don't accept it, most retailers don't accept it, most businesses in general don't accept it. In Melbourne at least nearly everywhere accepts it, from coffee shops to supermarkets to tech retailers. Even the US's move to EMV is backwards. The country has the second highest credit card fraud rate in the world yet when moving to a "more secure" system, signatures are still being retained as "authentication" or "authorization" despite being literally attached to the back of the card. The US is fantastic when it comes to technology but when it comes to banking and payments it's incredibly dated and behind.
- pbreit 11y ago
  My sense is the superiority of the mag-stripe is a reason why commerce in the USA exceeds the rest of the world. But I would agree that the move to EMV is a step backwards.
  - untog 11y ago
    My sense is the superiority of the mag-stripe is a reason why commerce in the USA exceeds the rest of the world I suspect it is more closely connected to population and GDP.
draw_down 11y ago
Sounds great!
LeoPanthera 11y ago
The article seem to suggest that your phone requires a working internet connection in order to make a payment. This seems like a huge limitation compared to Apple Pay (and presumably Android Pay?), which does not.
chasing 11y ago
Just the name ("CurrentC") seems like it's going to lead to numerous Who's-On-First kinds of interactions... A: "Do you take CurrentC?" B: "Of course we take currency." A: [Pulls out CurrentC app.] B: "Oh, no. We don't do that." Might do better if it sounded distinct when spoken. Like "Apple Pay." A: "Do you take Apple Pay?" B: "No, we only accept payments in currency, not in fruit." A: [Pulls out CurrentC app.] B: "We don't take that, either." [Audience laughter, applause, and scene.]
- glhaynes 11y ago
  First time I tried Apple Pay in a McDonald's drive thru I ended up with an apple pie added to my order.
prplhaz4 11y ago
Did more research - it seems like this article is wrong about fraud liability (in addition to QR tokenization). There are plenty of things wrong with CurrentC, no need to make stuff up... To further protect CurrentC™ consumers, our zero-liability policy protects consumers in the event unauthorized or fraudulent charges are made to their checking account as a result of unauthorized ACH transactions processed through BIM. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcx-adds-bim-guaranteed-ach-170000793.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcx-adds-bim-guaranteed-ach-17...
- mfringel 11y ago
  Even with a zero-liability policy, the money is coming directly out of your bank account, and will be put back in eventually, after investigation. Since the only person that's out money is you, no one has financial incentive to speed the process.
- serge2k 11y ago
  Their policy, not the credit card companies policy. I'd much rather be protected by visa/mastercard.
serge2k 11y ago
> 3 security questions Why are these still a thing? Is it regulations or something?

37 points by jszumski 11y ago

sarahprobono 11y ago

I have to say, just because of the privacy implications, I'm much more inclined to use Apple Pay than CurrentC.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
DaveWalk 11y ago
I'm not an Apple Pay user -- is their privacy policy any good? Does it not collect metadata? The article highlights CurrentC's brazen lack of privacy. From their policy: > We share your information across our network of merchants and with our third party service providers. MCX may share...To third-party analytic providers and advertising partners to help us deliver, track and analyze the operations and effectiveness of our marketing campaigns, promotions or advertisements.
- macavity23 11y ago
  Apple Pay's privacy is much better. AIUI: Apple knows nothing about your cards (they are all encrypted on-device), and nothing about your transaction except that there was A transaction (since Apple just sees a token that gets passed from you to the card provider). The merchant doesn't see your real cc number, just a one-use token. So they can't track you unless you choose to add a loyalty card. The card provider sees all details of the transaction. Just as now, and what you want. And the real cc details are stored in dedicated silicon on a fingerprint-locked device.
  - pdpi 11y ago
    > The merchant doesn't see your real cc number, just a one-use token It's worth noting that the token is one-per-vendor, rather than one-per-payment. This is what allows TFL to match your tap-in to your tap-out on the London Underground, and what allows them to apply daily/weekly capping on fares.

prplhaz4 11y ago

I believe CurrentC's (Paydiant's) QR code tokenization works the same as you've described Apple Pay tokenization - the merchant POS does not see any payment info other than a one-time-use token. This was another decent teardown of Paydiant's Subway app - but it looks like someone high up has had some of the code redacted :) http://randywestergren.com/reverse-engineering-the-subway-android-app/ http://randywestergren.com/reverse-engineering-the-subway-an... Functionally, it looks like CurrentC only has two advantages over *Pays - loyalty integration and big box retailer backing. Not likely enough, but will be interesting to see how it plays out in the lower end market where a flagship device is not required...

gergles 11y ago
The checking account number listed in the screenshot is also printed on the receipt, so they don't appear to be tokenizing from a casual inspection.
- prplhaz4 11y ago
  I have worked with APIs in the past that would only make masked account numbers or last 4 digits available. Stripe is a great example - after the initial card is created, everything is tokenized, and they only allow you to pull the last 4 digits as an identifier.
ascagnel_ 11y ago
As far as loyalty integration, there is some of that in Apple Pay -- it supports my local supermarket and drug store (Wegman's and Walgreen's, respectively).
- prplhaz4 11y ago
  Any chance you can point me to a good demo? I haven't seen a good single-scan loyalty/payment demo for ApplePay yet, and the SamsungPay demo seems to imply it but isn't very clear...
- MBCook 11y ago

mfringel 11y ago

Between the privacy concerns and the fact that it's ACH only, it sounds like it has a tremendous benefit for retailers.... and precisely none for me.

jimkri 11y ago

I really don't understand what the companies involved with MCX are thinking. They build an app that is going in the opposite direction of where the market is heading and limit the amount of payments they accept. I was in line at 7-11 at my university, where an girl was trying to use the currentc app. She was 2 people ahead of me, when I went up to pay she was still trying to pay with the app. At first her screen was to dim, and the scanner would not read the QR code. Eventually she was able to pay, but I was already long gone by that time. If you look on the google play store it has a rating of 1.1 starts. This is straight from its website,"Merchant Customer Exchange is the only merchant-owned mobile commerce network built to streamline the customer shopping experience across all major retail verticals." With an app that rates 1.1 stars and no improvement, I don't think it cares about the shopping experience, and people will see this eventually.

untog 11y ago
A clue to what the companies are thinking from the article: "Its payments are also routed from the retailer to the ACH system instead of the credit card system, which saves retailers from having to pay interchange fees (typically around 2% of the transaction amount)"
- jimkri 11y ago
  Yea I realized that when I was thinking about it. Which is a financial smart reason, but in the end it limits them. If I only have my phone which I have android pay on and I need to get something from a drug store, I would go to CVS but they don't accept NFC. So I will have to go to Walgreen's instead which is usually near a CVS. So I don't get why they don't offer NFC, because keeping 98% of the transaction amount is better than 0.
  - untog 11y ago
    Because what you're saying won't happen in a lot of situations. Drugs stores are interchangeable, but Target and Walmart are much less so, particularly out of urban centres.

wahsd 11y ago

"...retail customer's money is on the line in the event of fraud..." is a good point that may just slide by. The fact that corporations have significantly moved to evading any kind of responsibility through various means from regulatory capture to force arbitration and market monopoly; it strikes me that the factor of risk to the retail consumer aspect will play a huge role. It is a huge competitive disadvantage, to both not develop something well and with vigilance towards security like Apple Pay is, while also then setting in place a framework for conveying to customers that "if there is fraud because of our poorly designed and developed system, we are going to duck and weave like champions". Do you want to keep away customers, i.e., revenue, because that's how you keep away customers.

Veratyr 11y ago

In Australia retailers have supported NFC in the form of Visa's payWave and Mastercard's PayPass for years now and I've got to say, it's fantastic compared to the experience in the US. Walk into a supermarket/retailer/cinema/restaurant in Melbourne and payment is as simple as waving your card at the terminal. If the purchase is less than ~$100 you don't need to enter a PIN and don't need to sign anything (we outlawed signatures for domestic payments mid last year). It's just done. Visa/Mastercard/banks generally cover any fraudulent purchases using the system so you don't need to worry too much about fraud. In addition to this, since the US tech companies generally don't appear to have cared about the rest of the world until now, our banks have provided us with contactless payment apps for our phones and unlike the numerous standards being developed in the US, the banks' apps work with the existing payWave/PayPass systems that are already supported. The reason I'm bringing this up is to show just how behind the US is when it comes to payments. I'm currently living in the Bay Area and the only places I've been able to successfully complete a purchase using a contactless payment method are Office Depot and Whole Foods. Most fast food places don't accept it, most retailers don't accept it, most businesses in general don't accept it. In Melbourne at least nearly everywhere accepts it, from coffee shops to supermarkets to tech retailers. Even the US's move to EMV is backwards. The country has the second highest credit card fraud rate in the world yet when moving to a "more secure" system, signatures are still being retained as "authentication" or "authorization" despite being literally attached to the back of the card. The US is fantastic when it comes to technology but when it comes to banking and payments it's incredibly dated and behind.

pbreit 11y ago
My sense is the superiority of the mag-stripe is a reason why commerce in the USA exceeds the rest of the world. But I would agree that the move to EMV is a step backwards.
- untog 11y ago
  My sense is the superiority of the mag-stripe is a reason why commerce in the USA exceeds the rest of the world I suspect it is more closely connected to population and GDP.

draw_down 11y ago

Sounds great!

LeoPanthera 11y ago

The article seem to suggest that your phone requires a working internet connection in order to make a payment. This seems like a huge limitation compared to Apple Pay (and presumably Android Pay?), which does not.

chasing 11y ago

Just the name ("CurrentC") seems like it's going to lead to numerous Who's-On-First kinds of interactions... A: "Do you take CurrentC?" B: "Of course we take currency." A: [Pulls out CurrentC app.] B: "Oh, no. We don't do that." Might do better if it sounded distinct when spoken. Like "Apple Pay." A: "Do you take Apple Pay?" B: "No, we only accept payments in currency, not in fruit." A: [Pulls out CurrentC app.] B: "We don't take that, either." [Audience laughter, applause, and scene.]

glhaynes 11y ago
First time I tried Apple Pay in a McDonald's drive thru I ended up with an apple pie added to my order.

prplhaz4 11y ago

Did more research - it seems like this article is wrong about fraud liability (in addition to QR tokenization). There are plenty of things wrong with CurrentC, no need to make stuff up... To further protect CurrentC™ consumers, our zero-liability policy protects consumers in the event unauthorized or fraudulent charges are made to their checking account as a result of unauthorized ACH transactions processed through BIM. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcx-adds-bim-guaranteed-ach-170000793.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcx-adds-bim-guaranteed-ach-17...

mfringel 11y ago
Even with a zero-liability policy, the money is coming directly out of your bank account, and will be put back in eventually, after investigation. Since the only person that's out money is you, no one has financial incentive to speed the process.
serge2k 11y ago
Their policy, not the credit card companies policy. I'd much rather be protected by visa/mastercard.

serge2k 11y ago

> 3 security questions Why are these still a thing? Is it regulations or something?