14 ms·

René Girard has died

115 points by lindbergh 11y ago

lindbergh 11y ago
His book Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World had a big effect on me and was my first contact with anthropology. I really enjoyed how Girard theorized what made us human in the first place (namely, rituals).
- agumonkey 11y ago
  Noob question, I suppose anthropology is a descriptive science, did it lead to theories about transcending human nature ? for instance avoiding (or at least attempting) social scapegoating.
  - fwdbureau 11y ago
    I'm going to over-simplify, but according to Girard, the greatest social attempt to avoid scapegoating and civilize human nature has been christianity. The figure of the Christ, and his sacrifice, was a smart operation to replace real scapegoats by a symbolic one, allowing the community to unite against an innocent without having to kill anyone. This has been successful for centuries, but it's interesting to note that in his latest books, Girard sounds pretty disillusioned about this. "Achever Clausewitz" (strangely translated in english by "Battling to the end") is quite a frightening apocalyptic book that I would recommend to anyone interested in Girard's work.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Very interesting, I tried to theorized the Christ idea, but never thought of it as a safety valve. So far all I got was the 'took our sins' as quick path to an everloving alter ego that can empathize with anybody since he sinned too. ps: Achever clausewitz sounds like a bad portemanteau. I guess on purpose.
    - binarymax 11y ago
      I challenge that it has been successful. Many people have been slain in the name of christ.
      - marincounty 11y ago
        Yea, you're right. I just wonder what society will look like without all the oral literature, mythology, folklore, fact-- for some, becomes really fashionable? I just don't think human beings are born moral, and I've met more than a few individuals who should spend a Sunday in church, and leave the filthy lookers club--just for a few Sundays. Just kidding with the lookers; not kidding about dudes who pride themself's on making it to the top of the shit pile, at any cost. And I've meet too many of those guys lately. I don't find them clever, cool, or hip. I sometimes visualize a Roman Emperor, like Constantine, looking over society, and thinking, 'I need to control the debachery that's getting out of hand.' (Just found out that Emperor Constantine had nothing to do with the formation of the canon. I always though he did?)
        binarymax 11y ago
        Humans are not born moral because morality is a human intellectual construct and is taught. Nature, without humanity, is neither moral nor amoral, it is just nature. I agree with Girards postulation that sameness begets violence because there is always non-uniformity, and those who seek to control and organise want uniformity (sometimes violently). I do wonder if there would be less violence not with the abolishment of all religion, but with the abolishment of all but one.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >umans are not born moral because morality is a human intellectual construct and is taught. Nature, without humanity, is neither moral nor amoral, it is just nature. That's not exactly accurate. For one, animals are also capable of handling "intellectual constructs" (even if less complex) and teaching them to their offspring or herd. Some starters: http://www.amazon.com/Can-Animals-Moral-Mark-Rowlands/dp/019024030X http://www.amazon.com/Can-Animals-Moral-Mark-Rowlands/dp/019... http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Lives-Animals-Dale-Peterson/dp/1608193462 http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Lives-Animals-Dale-Peterson/dp/1...
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
One of the most interesting writers I've read. His theories of acquisitive mimesis and scapegoating are towering ideas. I have no idea how they could be made falsifiable but it would be interesting if they could. Even if they are not falsifiable, as a theory of literature - or just storytelling - they're still quite powerful.
- Camillo 11y ago
  Girard was a genius. His existence redeemed the entire discipline of anthropology in my eyes.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - ngrilly 11y ago
    I fully agree. His books are among the most influential things I've ever read.
bambax 11y ago
What a bunch of bull. René Girard was a big, big charlatan. Read this instead of this article: http://www.pseudo-sciences.org/spip.php?article1629 http://www.pseudo-sciences.org/spip.php?article1629 ("Un allumé qui se prend pour un phare"). At its core, the concept of imitation has a big origin problem: it's turtles all the way down, all over again. And the method of Girard is to select and twist quotes that suit him while ignoring others. Read Girard only once you're very familiar with his source material, not before. Also: > He was elected to the Académie Française in 2005, an honor previously given to Voltaire, Jean Racine and Victor Hugo. Many great people were elected to the Académie Française in the 400 years since its foundation. But many others were not great at anything besides promoting themselves.
- edanm 11y ago
  I have no thoughts on Rene Girard, having never heard of him before. Still, just as a matter of civility, perhaps calling him a charlatan and criticizing his work is something that we shouldn't do on a thread announcing his death. There are better places for this.
  - bambax 11y ago
    That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? The thread "announcing" his death points to an article comparing him to Voltaire and Racine. Please. What really upsets me about Girard is his arrogance and how well it worked. It takes some balls to title a book "things hidden since the creation of the world" (meaning, nobody before me was able to think clearly). And it takes some admirable luck to have people fall for it.
    - lentil_soup 11y ago
      Huh? Terrible analogy, he didnt die because of his theories or for being a "charlatan"
      - bambax 11y ago
keane 11y ago
Peter Thiel was greatly influenced by Girard at Stanford [1] and he worked to create the nonprofit that supports the proliferation and application of Girard's theories, Imitatio [2]. You can get an idea of some of Girard's thought and of related works that engage with it at the free collection of writings maintained by Paul Nuechterlein [3]. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-on-rene-girards-influence-2014-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-on-rene-girards-i... [2] http://www.imitatio.org/ http://www.imitatio.org/ [3] http://www.girardianlectionary.net/ http://www.girardianlectionary.net/
- amadeusw 11y ago
  The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a comprehensive, yet concise writeup on Girard's theories [1]. Interestingly, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has no article on him [2] - is it because he worked there? [1] http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard [2] http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search?query=girard+rene http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search?query=girard+rene
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    > the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has no article on him It might be because the SEP is (I think) geared toward analytic philosophy, whereas Girard sounds like he's more from the continental tradition.
- bambax 11y ago
  In the first article you point to, Thiel says that: > Economics will tell you that competition dilutes profits, and that’s one big reason to question it. Hmm, actually, no and no. Economics don't tell you that competition dilutes profits, it tells you that competition drives down prices until profits are zero, which isn't the same thing. And it also tells you that low prices are good, not bad; only companies care about "profits", but the public at large benefits not from profits but from low prices. Walmart is the best thing that ever happened to the US, economy-wise. Didn't know that Peter Thiel was an admirer of René Girard, but since he's also a disciple of Ayn Rand, I guess it makes sense (in that he revels in big empty bullshit).
wyclif 11y ago
Girard was an important scholar of mimetic rivalry, sacrifice, and violence in the ancient world. For a great place to start, I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/1570753199/ http://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/15707...
- scorchio 11y ago
  Why would you recommend See Satan Fall Like Lightening over Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World as a starting place?
  - wyclif 11y ago
    Both of those books are great, but ISSFLL is Girard at his most brilliant, explaining the role mimetic desire plays in human conflict.
  - edeion 11y ago
    This book is very short, up and to the point. Provided you don't stop at the symbolic language that is only clarified a bit late into the book.
  - ngrilly 11y ago
    You should start with Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World. It's a great summary of Girard's theory, and it's easy to read.
thatfrenchguy 11y ago
"René would never have experienced such a career in France," said Benoît Chantre, president of Paris' Association Recherches Mimétiques, one of the organizations that have formed around Girard's work. "Such a free work could indeed only appear in America ". Yeah, who really believes that ?
- aexaey 11y ago
  Looks like times have changed in France, since Thomas Piketty had no problem working there and writing his "Capital in the Twenty-First Century" which went on to have millions of copies sold?
kriro 11y ago
For me he is the champion of "people mimic stuff and people". Since I agree that it is human nature to do so he's also part of my foundation of favoring FLOSS software and being opposed to software patents (or limits on the ability to mimic things in general).
charlysisto 11y ago
I'd like to point out that he also heavily influenced Jean Pierre Dupuy (also professor at Standford) who wrote a few brilliant books. Among them : "l'Avenir de l'économie". Don't know if it's translated in english but for my fellow french hackers I highly recommend it

115 points by lindbergh 11y ago

His book Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World had a big effect on me and was my first contact with anthropology. I really enjoyed how Girard theorized what made us human in the first place (namely, rituals).

agumonkey 11y ago
Noob question, I suppose anthropology is a descriptive science, did it lead to theories about transcending human nature ? for instance avoiding (or at least attempting) social scapegoating.
- fwdbureau 11y ago
  I'm going to over-simplify, but according to Girard, the greatest social attempt to avoid scapegoating and civilize human nature has been christianity. The figure of the Christ, and his sacrifice, was a smart operation to replace real scapegoats by a symbolic one, allowing the community to unite against an innocent without having to kill anyone. This has been successful for centuries, but it's interesting to note that in his latest books, Girard sounds pretty disillusioned about this. "Achever Clausewitz" (strangely translated in english by "Battling to the end") is quite a frightening apocalyptic book that I would recommend to anyone interested in Girard's work.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Very interesting, I tried to theorized the Christ idea, but never thought of it as a safety valve. So far all I got was the 'took our sins' as quick path to an everloving alter ego that can empathize with anybody since he sinned too. ps: Achever clausewitz sounds like a bad portemanteau. I guess on purpose.
  - binarymax 11y ago
    I challenge that it has been successful. Many people have been slain in the name of christ.
    - marincounty 11y ago
      Yea, you're right. I just wonder what society will look like without all the oral literature, mythology, folklore, fact-- for some, becomes really fashionable? I just don't think human beings are born moral, and I've met more than a few individuals who should spend a Sunday in church, and leave the filthy lookers club--just for a few Sundays. Just kidding with the lookers; not kidding about dudes who pride themself's on making it to the top of the shit pile, at any cost. And I've meet too many of those guys lately. I don't find them clever, cool, or hip. I sometimes visualize a Roman Emperor, like Constantine, looking over society, and thinking, 'I need to control the debachery that's getting out of hand.' (Just found out that Emperor Constantine had nothing to do with the formation of the canon. I always though he did?)
      - binarymax 11y ago
        Humans are not born moral because morality is a human intellectual construct and is taught. Nature, without humanity, is neither moral nor amoral, it is just nature. I agree with Girards postulation that sameness begets violence because there is always non-uniformity, and those who seek to control and organise want uniformity (sometimes violently). I do wonder if there would be less violence not with the abolishment of all religion, but with the abolishment of all but one.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >umans are not born moral because morality is a human intellectual construct and is taught. Nature, without humanity, is neither moral nor amoral, it is just nature. That's not exactly accurate. For one, animals are also capable of handling "intellectual constructs" (even if less complex) and teaching them to their offspring or herd. Some starters: http://www.amazon.com/Can-Animals-Moral-Mark-Rowlands/dp/019024030X http://www.amazon.com/Can-Animals-Moral-Mark-Rowlands/dp/019... http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Lives-Animals-Dale-Peterson/dp/1608193462 http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Lives-Animals-Dale-Peterson/dp/1...

ArkyBeagle 11y ago

One of the most interesting writers I've read. His theories of acquisitive mimesis and scapegoating are towering ideas. I have no idea how they could be made falsifiable but it would be interesting if they could. Even if they are not falsifiable, as a theory of literature - or just storytelling - they're still quite powerful.

Camillo 11y ago
Girard was a genius. His existence redeemed the entire discipline of anthropology in my eyes.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- ngrilly 11y ago
  I fully agree. His books are among the most influential things I've ever read.

bambax 11y ago

What a bunch of bull. René Girard was a big, big charlatan. Read this instead of this article: http://www.pseudo-sciences.org/spip.php?article1629 http://www.pseudo-sciences.org/spip.php?article1629 ("Un allumé qui se prend pour un phare"). At its core, the concept of imitation has a big origin problem: it's turtles all the way down, all over again. And the method of Girard is to select and twist quotes that suit him while ignoring others. Read Girard only once you're very familiar with his source material, not before. Also: > He was elected to the Académie Française in 2005, an honor previously given to Voltaire, Jean Racine and Victor Hugo. Many great people were elected to the Académie Française in the 400 years since its foundation. But many others were not great at anything besides promoting themselves.

edanm 11y ago
I have no thoughts on Rene Girard, having never heard of him before. Still, just as a matter of civility, perhaps calling him a charlatan and criticizing his work is something that we shouldn't do on a thread announcing his death. There are better places for this.
- bambax 11y ago
  That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? The thread "announcing" his death points to an article comparing him to Voltaire and Racine. Please. What really upsets me about Girard is his arrogance and how well it worked. It takes some balls to title a book "things hidden since the creation of the world" (meaning, nobody before me was able to think clearly). And it takes some admirable luck to have people fall for it.
  - lentil_soup 11y ago
    Huh? Terrible analogy, he didnt die because of his theories or for being a "charlatan"
    - bambax 11y ago

keane 11y ago

Peter Thiel was greatly influenced by Girard at Stanford [1] and he worked to create the nonprofit that supports the proliferation and application of Girard's theories, Imitatio [2]. You can get an idea of some of Girard's thought and of related works that engage with it at the free collection of writings maintained by Paul Nuechterlein [3]. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-on-rene-girards-influence-2014-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-on-rene-girards-i... [2] http://www.imitatio.org/ http://www.imitatio.org/ [3] http://www.girardianlectionary.net/ http://www.girardianlectionary.net/

amadeusw 11y ago
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a comprehensive, yet concise writeup on Girard's theories [1]. Interestingly, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has no article on him [2] - is it because he worked there? [1] http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard [2] http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search?query=girard+rene http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search?query=girard+rene
- jessriedel 11y ago
  > the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has no article on him It might be because the SEP is (I think) geared toward analytic philosophy, whereas Girard sounds like he's more from the continental tradition.
bambax 11y ago
In the first article you point to, Thiel says that: > Economics will tell you that competition dilutes profits, and that’s one big reason to question it. Hmm, actually, no and no. Economics don't tell you that competition dilutes profits, it tells you that competition drives down prices until profits are zero, which isn't the same thing. And it also tells you that low prices are good, not bad; only companies care about "profits", but the public at large benefits not from profits but from low prices. Walmart is the best thing that ever happened to the US, economy-wise. Didn't know that Peter Thiel was an admirer of René Girard, but since he's also a disciple of Ayn Rand, I guess it makes sense (in that he revels in big empty bullshit).

wyclif 11y ago

Girard was an important scholar of mimetic rivalry, sacrifice, and violence in the ancient world. For a great place to start, I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/1570753199/ http://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/15707...

scorchio 11y ago
Why would you recommend See Satan Fall Like Lightening over Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World as a starting place?
- wyclif 11y ago
  Both of those books are great, but ISSFLL is Girard at his most brilliant, explaining the role mimetic desire plays in human conflict.
- edeion 11y ago
  This book is very short, up and to the point. Provided you don't stop at the symbolic language that is only clarified a bit late into the book.
- ngrilly 11y ago
  You should start with Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World. It's a great summary of Girard's theory, and it's easy to read.

thatfrenchguy 11y ago

"René would never have experienced such a career in France," said Benoît Chantre, president of Paris' Association Recherches Mimétiques, one of the organizations that have formed around Girard's work. "Such a free work could indeed only appear in America ". Yeah, who really believes that ?

aexaey 11y ago
Looks like times have changed in France, since Thomas Piketty had no problem working there and writing his "Capital in the Twenty-First Century" which went on to have millions of copies sold?

kriro 11y ago

For me he is the champion of "people mimic stuff and people". Since I agree that it is human nature to do so he's also part of my foundation of favoring FLOSS software and being opposed to software patents (or limits on the ability to mimic things in general).

charlysisto 11y ago

I'd like to point out that he also heavily influenced Jean Pierre Dupuy (also professor at Standford) who wrote a few brilliant books. Among them : "l'Avenir de l'économie". Don't know if it's translated in english but for my fellow french hackers I highly recommend it